Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Panapaok
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:36 am

mlsstwrt wrote:I don't know how on earth Laura as supernatural being would fit into any of this so I'm going to hope that the above posters are right when they say this isn't the direction Lynch is going.
As an avid fan of The Return, I can say that this is my only concern so far. I wouldn't worry that much though! Lynch loves FWWM so very much and he has made a point of how important it is to him and the new series. I don't think he would want to contradict it. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:43 am

Any pro-TP:TR hornblowers should probably be wary of using the "wait until it's over to pass judgment" line. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very valid point...but it cuts equally both ways. (Alright, maybe not QUITE equally...my love of many individual moments in the show to date will probably stand regardless of how potentially awful the ending is, whereas mlsstwrt quite rightly notes that he shouldn't have to watch 18 hours of something he hates to get to a great payoff). I think the ending will be at best challenging and at worst messy, and I won't be at all surprised if many of the current "true believers" end up joining this thread as the clock ticks closer to the end.

The "savior Laura" thing makes me uneasy as well, but the beautiful presentation of that scene (and my trust in DKL, particularly his consistent devotion to doing right by Laura) make me comfortable enough to wait and see how it plays out. To date, TP has a touch-and-go history of engaging with the sexual abuse elements of its story in a satisfying manner (the eternal Episode 16 vs. FWWM Leland/Bob debate -- are the two depictions reconcilable? how much of each approach was Lynch vs. Frost vs. Peyton? does DKL mean it when he has Leland deny culpability in Episode 29 and BTW, or is he just depicting a man in denial even after death?). The obvious touchstone in all this is FWWM, by far the most in-depth and serious journey into this aspect of the TP world, and as a result of that film the general assumption is that DKL is the champion of addressing abuse in a serious manner whereas Frost/Peyton were more interested in blaming spirits and playing mythological games. However, an abundance of evidence shows that the reality may be a bit more complicated than that. It's all been discussed at length elsewhere, so all I'll say is that, as a massive DKL fan who has loved TP:TR thus far, I can't state with any confidence that DKL won't bollocks up Laura's character with some messianic silliness...and this indeed is the flavor most of us have gotten from that (one brief dialogue-free) scene. He seems to be throwing in aspects of pretty much every aspect of his career to date...maybe he still has a draft of Dune: Messiah lying around that he decided to incorporate. ;) The upside is that most of what DKL does -- particularly when it comes to the TP mythology -- is ambiguous enough that it can interpreted 4 or 5 different ways. See the Leland/Bob stuff from the original show, which I think was often mishandled in terms of implicitly washing Leland's hands...but it can all be read a number of different ways, and ultimately Episode 16's whitewashing doesn't negate the stronger elements of the original series for me the way it might if the series unambiguously told us that Leland was possessed and had no culpability whatsoever.

Btw, earlier in the thread I expressed my hope that those disillusioned with the show could separate the new series from the old, and I used The Godfather, Part III as an example. I was reminded of another personal example of this over the weekend. The James Bond films are a huge guilty pleasure for me (go ahead, judge). Casino Royale was a revelation, probably the first 007 film I would actually deem a great movie since From Russia with Love. The subsequent couple of films were fine...then came Spectre, which essentially retconned everything in the Daniel Craig films...

Spoiler:
The film reintroduces supervillain Blofeld and the shadowy SPECTRE organization from the Fleming novels and the old Connery movies...and it turns out that in the new continuity, Blofeld is Bond's long-lost adopted brother (going full-on Austin Powers!), and he became a supervillain because daddy loved James more than him. The film never addresses the astronomical coincidence of two brothers independently ending up as world-class terrorist and spy, respectively. Furthermore, it is revealed that pretty much everything the villains in the previous three films did was basically just Blofeld lashing out at his bro through subordinates.


Now, even given how moronic Casino Royale looks through the Spectre lens, I can still go back and appreciate it as its own self-contained film. Do elements of the Spectre retcon occasionally bubble to the surface while I'm watching? Sure. Do I kinda wish Spectre just hadn't been made? Well, yeah. But nothing is going to cheapen Casino Royale for me. It's a near-perfect Bond film as far as I'm concerned, and nothing can ever take it away from me. I truly hope mlsstwrt and others are able to achieve a similar level of separation re: the old Peaks, although of course we all compartmentalize differently.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:50 am

reply to: Another_blue_rose_case re '' shoddiness ''

''There is something of the 20th century student filmmaker inside the 21st century old master; it keeps his work fresh and young. It isn’t conventional, or even “right.” Scenes run long; some shots are snatched away before we can tell what we’re seeing. The camera might be placed at what feels like slightly the wrong, less-than-professional angle. But it makes the viewer unusually alive to the action. There is a kind of intentional inelegance, a stubborn awkwardness to Lynch’s work, something akin to outsider art,''
robert lloyd - LA Times. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv ... story.html
''let's not overthink this opportunity''
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:52 am

Great post Reindeer. For the record I'm male, not that you could tell from the username and not that it really matters in this thread, lol (cue paranoia that I have a 'feminine' writing style).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:55 am

referendum wrote:reply to: Another_blue_rose_case re '' shoddiness ''

''There is something of the 20th century student filmmaker inside the 21st century old master; it keeps his work fresh and young. It isn’t conventional, or even “right.” Scenes run long; some shots are snatched away before we can tell what we’re seeing. The camera might be placed at what feels like slightly the wrong, less-than-professional angle. But it makes the viewer unusually alive to the action. There is a kind of intentional inelegance, a stubborn awkwardness to Lynch’s work, something akin to outsider art,''
robert lloyd - LA Times. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv ... story.html


That rings true, referendum. Cheers for that.
Lynch on Trump, mid-2018: "He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history."
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:58 am

I am genuinely interested to see how many of 'us' join 'your side' (I'm putting this in very simplistic terms obviously) or how many of 'you' join 'our side'. I honestly hope there are more of the former than the latter. My desire to be proved right with this thread pales into nothingness compared to how much I want a TP continuation that I can love! I don't know if it's too late or not.

I'd kind of lost faith in Lynch but thinking about Between Two Worlds as per my earlier post has made me re-think this. There was COLOSSAL empathy for the characters in that brief 'interview'. It can't have gone out of the window in the intervening few years. So I'm trying to be a bit more positive about this.

That said a lot of people here aren't necessarily looking for that and are happy (in rapture?) with what they've seen to date. So I think they'll be content with more of the same whereas I (and I think I could probably add a few others in) won't be.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:16 am

mlsstwrt wrote:Great post Reindeer. For the record I'm male, not that you could tell from the username and not that it really matters in this thread, lol (cue paranoia that I have a 'feminine' writing style).


Eek, sorry! I'd always read the first four letters of your username as "miss"...just now realizing I was misreading it! :oops: This is what I get for reading the board on my f*cking phone! ;) (Also possibly influenced by my latent hope to see more female members on this forum -- it seems like, insofar as users reference their genders, we are a predominantly male group). Editing my post to correct!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:20 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Any pro-TP:TR hornblowers should probably be wary of using the "wait until it's over to pass judgment" line. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very valid point...but it cuts equally both ways. (Alright, maybe not QUITE equally...my love of many individual moments in the show to date will probably stand regardless of how potentially awful the ending is, whereas misstwrt quite rightly notes that she shouldn't have to watch 18 hours of something she hates to get to a great payoff). I think the ending will be at best challenging and at worst messy, and I won't be at all surprised if many of the current "true believers" end up joining this thread as the clock ticks closer to the end.

The "savior Laura" thing makes me uneasy as well, but the beautiful presentation of that scene (and my trust in DKL, particularly his consistent devotion to doing right by Laura) make me comfortable enough to wait and see how it plays out. To date, TP has a touch-and-go history of engaging with the sexual abuse elements of its story in a satisfying manner (the eternal Episode 16 vs. FWWM Leland/Bob debate -- are the two depictions reconcilable? how much of each approach was Lynch vs. Frost vs. Peyton? does DKL mean it when he has Leland deny culpability in Episode 29 and BTW, or is he just depicting a man in denial even after death?). The obvious touchstone in all this is FWWM, by far the most in-depth and serious journey into this aspect of the TP world, and as a result of that film the general assumption is that DKL is the champion of addressing abuse in a serious manner whereas Frost/Peyton were more interested in blaming spirits and playing mythological games. However, an abundance of evidence shows that the reality may be a bit more complicated than that. It's all been discussed at length elsewhere, so all I'll say is that, as a massive DKL fan who has loved TP:TR thus far, I can't state with any confidence that DKL won't bollocks up Laura's character with some messianic silliness...and this indeed is the flavor most of us have gotten from that (one brief dialogue-free) scene. He seems to be throwing in aspects of pretty much every aspect of his career to date...maybe he still has a draft of Dune: Messiah lying around that he decided to incorporate. ;) The upside is that most of what DKL does -- particularly when it comes to the TP mythology -- is ambiguous enough that it can interpreted 4 or 5 different ways. See the Leland/Bob stuff from the original show, which I think was often mishandled in terms of implicitly washing Leland's hands...but it can all be read a number of different ways, and ultimately Episode 16's whitewashing doesn't negate the stronger elements of the original series for me the way it might if the series unambiguously told us that Leland was possessed and had no culpability whatsoever.


Is it possible that what we saw ???? birthing was not the human being 'Laura Palmer' but a principle or Form of some kind that will be implanted in the real-live person Laura Palmer, just as what the Experiment birthed -- BOB -- will be implanted in Laura's father? This would make all of Laura's struggles and torments just as real as Leland's, though of course greater in scale. Laura Palmer the human being will still die in that train car.

There was long something 'more/other' about Leland Palmer the smalltown lawyer, and Laura too always had an almost inhumanly charismatic aura associated with her that implied something more/other. And the glimpses we've had of Laura-Palmer-like figures since the train car have all had an idealised/abstract quality that may represent whatever ???? gave birth to. L&F may have in mind beyond the real person Laura Palmer the principle of the Ideal Blonde we see in the old Italian poets.

Apologies again if I'm just repeating something that's already been stated and discussed.
Lynch on Trump, mid-2018: "He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history."
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:26 am

I don't think you are ABR!

I am interested in the 'split' between Bob and the person he inhabits. Still not quite sure how to delineate this - where does Leland end and Bob begin? Evilcoop has muddied the waters further (I find Bob's inhabitation of Leland infinitely more fascinating than his inhabitation of EvilCoop).

The Leland thing is fascinating because it's an ostensibly good man (although is he really?) possessed by an evil spirit whereas EvilCoop Bob just seems to be a really bad lowlife dude possibly inhabited by an evil spirit, lol. But maybe I'm missing something.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:37 am

@ mslrrt

I'd kind of lost faith in Lynch but thinking about Between Two Worlds as per my earlier post has made me re-think this. There was COLOSSAL empathy for the characters in that brief 'interview'. It can't have gone out of the window in the intervening few years. So I'm trying to be a bit more positive about this.


i saw the between two worlds exhibition. It shifted what i thought about Lynch's work sideways. Not seen interview/ video. Will check it out.
''let's not overthink this opportunity''
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:46 am

referendum wrote:@ mslrrt

I'd kind of lost faith in Lynch but thinking about Between Two Worlds as per my earlier post has made me re-think this. There was COLOSSAL empathy for the characters in that brief 'interview'. It can't have gone out of the window in the intervening few years. So I'm trying to be a bit more positive about this.


i saw the between two worlds exhibition. It shifted what i thought about Lynch's work sideways. Not seen interview/ video. Will check it out.


Am I referring to the wrong thing? I thought that's what the Leland/Sarah/Laura interview with Lynch was referred to as. Sorry if I got that wrong!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:49 am

Between Two Worlds was the name of both the 2014 "Palmer family" Blu Ray interview AND an Australian exhibition of DKL's art that occurred a few months later, also in 2014. Everyone is right! :D
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mlsstwrt » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:56 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Between Two Worlds was the name of both the 2014 "Palmer family" Blu Ray interview AND an Australian exhibition of DKL's art that occurred a few months later, also in 2014. Everyone is right! :D


Ah thanks for clearing that up Reindeer!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby referendum » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:01 am

Am I referring to the wrong thing? I thought that's what the Leland/Sarah/Laura interview with Lynch was referred to as. Sorry if I got that wrong!


it's all the same thing. Lynch stuff is 'all the same thing'. In this series of TPtr he seems to have finally admitted that and run with the ball.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:09 am

mlsstwrt wrote:I don't think you are ABR!

I am interested in the 'split' between Bob and the person he inhabits. Still not quite sure how to delineate this - where does Leland end and Bob begin? Evilcoop has muddied the waters further (I find Bob's inhabitation of Leland infinitely more fascinating than his inhabitation of EvilCoop).

The Leland thing is fascinating because it's an ostensibly good man (although is he really?) possessed by an evil spirit whereas EvilCoop Bob just seems to be a really bad lowlife dude possibly inhabited by an evil spirit, lol. But maybe I'm missing something.


Or maybe EvilCoop is an evil spirit and the spirit of Billy Ray Cyrus inhabiting Coop's body together and giving us the world's cuddliest serial killer.
Lynch on Trump, mid-2018: "He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history."

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