Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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musicaddict
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:03 am

AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:
TwistedFate_L4 wrote:
Sadly, at the end of the day, despite all the gushing critical reviews and praise- The Return will largely not be remembered by anyone with the exception of Twin Peaks fans and hardcore Lynch lovers- the world has already moved on to their next show- Heck, I moved on before The Return even ended and stopped watching weekly. I caught up the night of the finale but even that was a challenge. Showtime boasted about The Return giving them their highest subscriptions ever, but I wonder how many of those people canceled their subcriptions in the 4 months since the show actually aired.

The Return's legacy will amount to "Oh yeah, they brought Twin Peaks back in the 2010s." and that's about it. A footnote, nothing more.


Absolutely.

One simple fact argues strongly that many viewers and critics have their fanboy blinkers on. This is the relative shortage on sites like this of people who weren’t already Lynch admirers before the premiere – in other words, the show’s failure to make many enthusiastic converts, especially among the young.

Every such person I know who was tempted by the hype to watch The Return quickly saw it as an ugly, boring joke, switched it off and got on with their lives barely giving it a second thought. And there haven’t been many if any high-profile reviews enthusing about a first exposure to the world of Twin Peaks.

But The Return can only be understood and therefore appreciated by pre-existing TP fans, some have argued.

This is just mistaken. Firstly, who really understands The Return, even among its fans? Think about how headwrecking and complex and unconnected to the original run and FWWM most of this show was. How did prior knowledge of them help anyone understand more than a portion of it? Newbies were only marginally more confused than everyone else watching, so it’s unlikely they switched off because e.g. they didn’t know who or what that crackling tree/neurone topped with gum was an evolution of. No, they mainly switched off because it was ugly and nasty and they were bored silly.

Secondly, several TR defences have gone like this: stop looking for coherence, purpose, meaning, understanding. Lynch is a painter, first and foremost, who gives you an experience of light, colour, texture, composition, and the like. Well, if that’s the case where are all the TP converts enthusing about this new painterly experience? If this is what Lynch is really all about then a viewer’s ignorance about the previous incarnation of that teapot etc becomes even less relevant. Surely nobody would claim non-TP fans are incapable of appreciating such an experience.

And thirdly, there aren’t zero converts, are there? It wasn’t impossible for new TP viewers to like The Return. It’s just that hardly any of them did.

If The Return were the masterpiece some are claiming, sites like this should be swarming with new Twin Peaks fans enthusing about their revelation. That converts are so thin on the ground speaks volumes about its quality. Almost the only people enthusing about it were already confirmed hardcore Lynch fans, as you say, which suggests they’re doing so because of who made it and not its merits. In fact the extent of this may well be unprecedented. Seldom if ever has any new TV show, never mind any true masterpiece, had such a low % of fresh converts amongst its fans.

TLDR The relative shortage of new TP converts, neutrals uninfluenced by past fandom, suggests that TR enthusiasm is largely down to fanboy blinkers. A scientific test of such blinkers could hardly find a better control group than these newbies.

Straw Man and Ad Hominem Suggestions for the Lynchbots:

He just said The Return made no converts! He just said I prance around wearing a horse’s blinkers! He’s just jealous cos Lynch’s dick is harder!


And no, there is no equivalence in how older women are presented in this show and how older men are. This is the great gaping hole at the heart of TR discussions. The portrayal of older women was just icky, especially compared to the portrayals of older men like Gordon Cole (of course) and Dougie/Coop (Lynch’s surrogate), and is one more reason not to grant the showrunners the benefit of the doubt in other areas. It was unarguably meanspirited and petty, so much so that it’s natural to then see those same attributes elsewhere.

(He just said Lynch punches older women IRL!).

Still think it’s notable how many of the regular posters here were English, Irish or Scottish.

(He just said no English people like The Return! I do! He just admitted all of Wales loves it! He just said The Return is the cause of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome!).
Your post made me chuckle!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Sigil7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:05 am

I admit to having some suspicion as to whether the Episode 18 we viewed, matched the ending Mark Frost had (believed) he had co-written with Lynch and also the ending Kyle Maclachlan thought he had read, when he digested the entire shooting script as one piece.

Back when TR was in production, Maclachlan made clear comments he had read the entire script. This original script was about 9 hours long. We obviously all know about the Lynch walkout and the increase to 18 episodes. However, the original 9 episode script would have served for all the dialogue driven scenes we viewed. Much of the remaining 9 hours was spent on non scripted aspects, such as the bands (which contributed to over 2 hours of viewing time), long, long scenes without dialogue and varying other similar shots. Lynch would have also produced some random (for want of a better word) improv scenes etc.

So considering KM read the original script, I am now questioning why he did not know the scenes he was filming in October 2015 (with the dialogue he and Lee were saying) formed the conclusion to the series? KM admits to being left 'reeling' by the final episode, but actors who read a script for that episode have no surprises to reel about!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Cipher » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:14 am

mlsstwrt wrote:I agree with part of your post but part is nonsense. I loved FWWM too for what it's worth. But to say that those who enjoyed the show are behaving better than those those who didn't is totally wrong. Look at this thread for God's sakes. It was created for one specific purpose. Lovers of the show have 99.9% of the internet (or 99.999% or whatever) to talk about how amazing it is. But we couldn't even have one thread to ourselves right? If that's not mean spirited I don't know what is.

I'd never tell anyone they can't dislike the show -- at all. But I haven't seen a personal vein to posts expressing appreciation for it in the way I have on every one of the last few pages here, where the critical background of those who like it has repeatedly come under attack. There's this weird assumption that anyone who liked it or was moved by it was posturing, or doesn't have a background in fiction or art, and both are borderline offensive and new to this topic since the finale.

If The Return didn't speak to you, or if you have critical reservations, that's fine. No need to scrutinize the motivations of those who had a different reaction.
Last edited by Cipher on Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
AnotherBlueRoseCase
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby AnotherBlueRoseCase » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:16 am

musicaddict wrote:
Your post made me chuckle![/quote]

That's at least partly what we're here for, right?
Lynch on Trump, mid-2018: "He could go down as one of the greatest presidents in history."
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:22 am

Sigil7 wrote:
So considering KM read the original script, I am now questioning why he did not know the scenes he was filming in October 2015 (with the dialogue he and Lee were saying) formed the conclusion to the series? KM admits to being left 'reeling' by the final episode, but actors who read a script for that episode have no surprises to reel about!


Sorry but this argument makes no sense. It would seem self evidence to me that you can have a different emotional reaction to a film versus a screenplay. Otherwise nobody would bother making movies, they'd just end after the screenplay is done.

Things like sound and camera angles can create an emotional reaction, it doesn't have to have anything to do with the screenplay being changed.
Last edited by Manwith on Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
claaa7
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:23 am

musicaddict wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I'm assuming the "Lynch discarded the script" theory stems from Episode 29, where that did indeed happen. There's no evidence that that happened here, though, and the key difference is that Lynch is credited as 50% cowriter on the entire series, whereas on Episode 29 he was returning after being largely an absentee parent for 14 episodes and reading someone else's script, which he felt was completely wrong. If you compare the script of any Lynch movie (cowritten or not) to the finished product, they're never too far off. And Nevins has said there wasn't much deviation from the script. People are entitled to vent and to speculate about what went wrong, but I really think this "Lynch left Frost out in the cold" talk is totally groundless and does a disservice to both men.

But isn't the speculation about Lynch ditching some of the script based upon the comment made by Sabrina Sutherland that whilst shooting Lynch was adding and re-writing? I am not saying that it was a significant contribution but she did put out there this idea that Lynch was doing his own thing. Without seeing the original script neither side is going to know exactly what was changed/added etc.


there was some rewrites during shooting, but it was never said that these were solo rewrites and additions by Lynch.. like i previously pointed out, Frost is an executive producer for this series. there is nothing to indicate that he handed in the script to the production company and was ditched by Lynch.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Quarry70Viet » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:24 am

Cipher wrote:
Quarry70Viet wrote:If Frost was the culprit for Leland, Bob, lodges and other similar ideas, he's the main culprit for what killed what I enjoyed in Twin Peaks.
Fwwm was a disappointment to me as I didn't care, as metaphysic theory always bored me.
I prefer Allegory.

If you came away from Fire Walk With Me thinking it was anything but the most allegory-heavy part of Twin Peaks, repurposing all of the series' fairly straightforward supernatural phenomenon as extensions of Laura's surreal ordeal, I don't know what to tell you except to watch it again independently of the series.

It took all of the season 2's X-Files-esque (though fun) shenanigans and made them emotional allegory.

Re: Above: I agree with some of the specific critiques of the show while liking (even loving) it as a whole, but presenting your take with hypothetical responses intended to dismiss the experience of people who were genuinely moved by the show is a shitty way to go about it. There's an aggressively mean-spirited and personally antagonistic attitude I see coming from people who didn't enjoy the show that I don't see from those who did.


Problem is I didn't find x-filesques shenanigans fun, it killed the purpose of many scenes. The weird stuff were often in small doses, even the leland Sarah thing could be attributed to people losing their mind after a traumatic évent.

The raw material that were in fwwm were weak for me. I have zero connection to this kind of stuff.
And like I said previously, laura's death mystery was never the most important thing for me, it was one of them, and if revealed, I was expecting done in the right way.
For me it was like Homeland s1, where first 4-5 were interesting and then someone décided a reboot, flashback épisode, killing many plots for a new one, deciding previous episodes had no purpose.

I don't agree often with a majority, but on twin peaks, I understand all the people that were quitting the show during s2.
Many scenes in thé movie Magnolia.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:29 am

Cipher wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:I agree with part of your post but part is nonsense. I loved FWWM too for what it's worth. But to say that those who enjoyed the show are behaving better than those those who didn't is totally wrong. Look at this thread for God's sakes. It was created for one specific purpose. Lovers of the show have 99.9% of the internet (or 99.999% or whatever) to talk about how amazing it is. But we couldn't even have one thread to ourselves right? If that's not mean spirited I don't know what is.

I'd never tell anyone they can't dislike the show -- at all. But I haven't seen a personal vein to posts expressing appreciation for it in the way I have on every one of the last few pages here, where the critical background of those who like it has repeatedly come under attack. There's this weird assumption that anyone who liked it or was moved by it was posturing, or doesn't have a background in fiction or art, and both are borderline offensive and new to this topic since the finale.

If The Return didn't speak to you, or you if you have critical reservations, that's fine. No need to scrutinize the motivations of those who had a different reaction.


i agree.. i've thrown some heavy criticism in a few of the episodes thread and never once have i been shut down for it. people are very welcome to challenge any reservations or praise i have but this idea that those who have been critical of the show elsewhere than this thread are being hounded and chased with pitchforks doesn't seem consistant with reality. i can't speak for Reddit, WTT and Facebook but on here i feel for the most part the discussion has been civilized and i hope we can keep that up. Dugpa is by far one of the most civilized and polite internet forums i have ever been a part of, let's keep it that way
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musicaddict
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby musicaddict » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:30 am

claaa7 wrote:
musicaddict wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I'm assuming the "Lynch discarded the script" theory stems from Episode 29, where that did indeed happen. There's no evidence that that happened here, though, and the key difference is that Lynch is credited as 50% cowriter on the entire series, whereas on Episode 29 he was returning after being largely an absentee parent for 14 episodes and reading someone else's script, which he felt was completely wrong. If you compare the script of any Lynch movie (cowritten or not) to the finished product, they're never too far off. And Nevins has said there wasn't much deviation from the script. People are entitled to vent and to speculate about what went wrong, but I really think this "Lynch left Frost out in the cold" talk is totally groundless and does a disservice to both men.

But isn't the speculation about Lynch ditching some of the script based upon the comment made by Sabrina Sutherland that whilst shooting Lynch was adding and re-writing? I am not saying that it was a significant contribution but she did put out there this idea that Lynch was doing his own thing. Without seeing the original script neither side is going to know exactly what was changed/added etc.


there was some rewrites during shooting, but it was never said that these were solo rewrites and additions by Lynch.. like i previously pointed out, Frost is an executive producer for this series. there is nothing to indicate that he handed in the script to the production company and was ditched by Lynch.

And I did not say any of those things I was merely pointing out what was already mentioned in another thread. Clearly your only purpose here is to just defend TP:TR, go to the satisfied thread if that' what you want to do.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:32 am

musicaddict wrote:
claaa7 wrote:
musicaddict wrote:But isn't the speculation about Lynch ditching some of the script based upon the comment made by Sabrina Sutherland that whilst shooting Lynch was adding and re-writing? I am not saying that it was a significant contribution but she did put out there this idea that Lynch was doing his own thing. Without seeing the original script neither side is going to know exactly what was changed/added etc.


there was some rewrites during shooting, but it was never said that these were solo rewrites and additions by Lynch.. like i previously pointed out, Frost is an executive producer for this series. there is nothing to indicate that he handed in the script to the production company and was ditched by Lynch.

And I did not say any of those things I was merely pointing out what was already mentioned in another thread. Clearly your only purpose here is to just defend TP:TR, go to the satisfied thread if that' what you want to do.


wow wtf..
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Sigil7 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:38 am

Manwith wrote:
Sigil7 wrote:
So considering KM read the original script, I am now questioning why he did not know the scenes he was filming in October 2015 (with the dialogue he and Lee were saying) formed the conclusion to the series? KM admits to being left 'reeling' by the final episode, but actors who read a script for that episode have no surprises to reel about!


Sorry but this argument makes no sense. It would seem self evidence to me that you can have a different emotional reaction to a film versus a screenplay. Otherwise nobody would bother making movies, they'd just end after the screenplay is done.

Things like sound and camera angles can create an emotional reaction, it doesn't have to have anything to do with the screenplay being changed.


KM's said something like "I had an idea these could be the final scenes but did not know". Therefore he is not making any comments about emotional reaction to viewing as per reading. He is talking in the past tense of filming. He is saying that in October 2015 when he and Sheryl Lee filmed the dialogue with the actual house owner (Tremond), KM believed he 'might' have been filming the final scenes but did not know for sure. Any actor will tell you that when they have read a script (to the end) they know what the final scenes (of the piece) are as the dialogue from that script has to be learned. KM is pretty much saying here, that whatever went on during that shoot in October 2015, he was not shooting something he had perceived the ending would be when he read the original script.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:52 am

Sigil7 wrote:KM's said something like "I had an idea these could be the final scenes but did not know". Therefore he is not making any comments about emotional reaction to viewing as per reading. He is talking in the past tense of filming. He is saying that in October 2015 when he and Sheryl Lee filmed the dialogue with the actual house owner (Tremond), KM believed he 'might' have been filming the final scenes but did not know for sure. Any actor will tell you that when they have read a script (to the end) they know what the final scenes (of the piece) are as the dialogue from that script has to be learned. KM is pretty much saying here, that whatever went on during that shoot in October 2015, he was not shooting something he had perceived the ending would be when he read the original script.


Well let's look at the actual quote.

Here's the quote:
That particular sequence we filmed very early on in the whole series. We filmed it up in Seattle at the Palmer house where I’d never actually been before, which was interesting. I remember not quite understanding where it was going to fit [in the story] even though I had read everything. So I didn’t know what to make of it. To me, it felt like something had gone wrong. What it was, I didn’t know. I remember [while] filming it, you couldn’t help but feel the hair on the back of your neck raise up because of the scream that Sheryl Lee gave which was in the middle of the night and blood-curdling. But there was some kind of a flash of understanding. What that understanding is, I’m not certain.


There are two ways to read it, one is your interpretation. The other is that he knew it was the last scene but didn't understand what it meant in terms of the chronology of the twin peaks universe or what happened. He could just be saying he didn't "get" the script and didn't "understand" the ending. Which makes sense, because the ending is confusing.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mine » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:56 am

Sigil7 wrote:
Manwith wrote:
Sigil7 wrote:
So considering KM read the original script, I am now questioning why he did not know the scenes he was filming in October 2015 (with the dialogue he and Lee were saying) formed the conclusion to the series? KM admits to being left 'reeling' by the final episode, but actors who read a script for that episode have no surprises to reel about!


Sorry but this argument makes no sense. It would seem self evidence to me that you can have a different emotional reaction to a film versus a screenplay. Otherwise nobody would bother making movies, they'd just end after the screenplay is done.

Things like sound and camera angles can create an emotional reaction, it doesn't have to have anything to do with the screenplay being changed.


KM's said something like "I had an idea these could be the final scenes but did not know". Therefore he is not making any comments about emotional reaction to viewing as per reading. He is talking in the past tense of filming. He is saying that in October 2015 when he and Sheryl Lee filmed the dialogue with the actual house owner (Tremond), KM believed he 'might' have been filming the final scenes but did not know for sure. Any actor will tell you that when they have read a script (to the end) they know what the final scenes (of the piece) are as the dialogue from that script has to be learned. KM is pretty much saying here, that whatever went on during that shoot in October 2015, he was not shooting something he had perceived the ending would be when he read the original script.

The script may have been merely the scenes collected in an order different from that of what has aired. It would make sense if the Las Vegas scenes were one entity, the surreal another, Twin Peaks third, New York a forth etc. There's a production logic to it and there's not enough of a plot for there being any reason for the script following the order we saw in what aired.
On the other hand the ending in the script may have just read "Lynch winging it" for 20 pages.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:45 am

In the end the mystery surrounding the original series was
'Who killed Laura Palmer' ? That mystery was solved.
Now the question is Who Killed Twin Peaks ? It wasn't time passing, it wasn't how it changed and it wasn't how it looked. There was something missing deep down, definitely something inside.
When Jupiter and Saturn meet , oh what a crop of mummy wheat.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Rialto » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:56 am

claaa7 wrote:
Cipher wrote:
mlsstwrt wrote:I agree with part of your post but part is nonsense. I loved FWWM too for what it's worth. But to say that those who enjoyed the show are behaving better than those those who didn't is totally wrong. Look at this thread for God's sakes. It was created for one specific purpose. Lovers of the show have 99.9% of the internet (or 99.999% or whatever) to talk about how amazing it is. But we couldn't even have one thread to ourselves right? If that's not mean spirited I don't know what is.

I'd never tell anyone they can't dislike the show -- at all. But I haven't seen a personal vein to posts expressing appreciation for it in the way I have on every one of the last few pages here, where the critical background of those who like it has repeatedly come under attack. There's this weird assumption that anyone who liked it or was moved by it was posturing, or doesn't have a background in fiction or art, and both are borderline offensive and new to this topic since the finale.

If The Return didn't speak to you, or you if you have critical reservations, that's fine. No need to scrutinize the motivations of those who had a different reaction.


i agree.. i've thrown some heavy criticism in a few of the episodes thread and never once have i been shut down for it. people are very welcome to challenge any reservations or praise i have but this idea that those who have been critical of the show elsewhere than this thread are being hounded and chased with pitchforks doesn't seem consistant with reality. i can't speak for Reddit, WTT and Facebook but on here i feel for the most part the discussion has been civilized and i hope we can keep that up. Dugpa is by far one of the most civilized and polite internet forums i have ever been a part of, let's keep it that way


Well, a lot of the recent joiners here did mention they were refugees from Reddit, and were coming here for a civilised discussion!

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