Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Poiuyt
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Poiuyt » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:43 am

Kilmoore wrote:Been reading the previous pages about how TP has now faded from a lot of peoples minds.

Well, I'm not one of them. I can't get it out of my head. I want to, since the disappointment rings its ugly head every time, but I just can't. I keep revisiting scenes and characters, the thoughts just pop into my head. So, whatever psychology it was that Lynch and Frost used to make me into a hostage has worked.

I still carry my fond memories of the real TP as well, so this is a confusing state to be in.


It's pretty frustrating--some of the scenes were fantastic and had me thinking it would easily top the first two seasons. Then somewhere around the squeegee scene and Freddie Green Glove's intro, I started thinking "Man this is actually getting really bad." Then the finale, which I hated and couldn't finish on a rewatch. So I don't know. I'm with you on the experience overall being completely UNforgettable, but at the same time I just hate how David Lynch cynically dragged me along with him. I'd rather he and Frost had just come up with some new ideas for Showtime instead of revitalizing Twin Peaks just to beat it back to death like a couple of spoiled teenagers.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:45 pm

The disappointment during the warm, sunny months has begun to fade a bit now. The horrible realization that this wasn't for me - and the subsequent depression that went along with it - is a thing of the past. Still, I can't shake the nagging feeling that this was a wasted opportunity, and what's worse, I still have moments where I'm angry and consider this whole shebang to be a giant fraud.

It wasn't all bad. There are many scenes that I would religiously worship, lots of moments where I would think "Yes! This is f**king brilliant". But then it all petered out. Whereas the first 16-17 episodes of the original series was a painting, brought about by careful deliberation from many artists, The Return was a madman's canvas - sometimes carefully painted, other times sprayed with a ketchup bottle or just vomited on at a late night afterparty that seemed a good idea at the time.

Judging by the discussion on this forum, The Return was never for me in the first place. Most of the debate throughout was always about the minutiae, the mythology, the conspiracy theories. Very little about the visual aspect, or addition of sounds to the already rich texture, which was a game changer in the original series, and very much the reason why I fell in love with the friggin' thing in the first place.

Now, about this summer's experience, I constantly directed the accusations towards myself: "Why aren't you clever enough to get this? Why do you need a strong narrative to enjoy this? Don't you see the genious and greatness in Kyle fondling shiny objects and repeating one word at a time?" It was a nightmare. I spent far too much time watching, reading, trying to get into this, and as a result, the wonderful, warm summer, and all its opportunities, just passed me by. It won't happen again.

It's very sad that this show has divided the fan base. I'm genuinly happy for those who have had their dreams fulfilled in The Return (to name a few friendly fans: yaxo, Mr. Reindeer, Mt Wents, and probably a few others I've forgotten - who have always showed an understanding for our point of view). But in one of the threads, someone posted an article from the Guardian, which painted The Return in a positive light. The same day - the very same day - a scathing review of Prison Break (a show I've never watched a single episode of) was posted. The general beef of the author? That characters who were declared dead were brought back to life. Case closed. Lynch isn't just allowed to play volleyball without the net - he is even applauded when he smashes the ball into his own court.

Following on from that, some might say that I haven't given the show the chance it deserves (a bit like people who encourage you to accept a particular divine saviour into your heartI) But tell me this: Why should I give credence to theories by "fans" who religiously saw significance in reflections of airplane windows? Or red balloons? Why should I cling on to the views of people who desperately wanted this show to be alienating - and who have revelled in the divisive nature - calling diehard, long-time fans spoiled and entitled, equating us with fans of Jersey Shore or being Michael Bay acolytes?

In short, I'm disappointed in the way season 3 turned out. There were magical moments that could have entered into the pantheon of our consciousness, but the overall rubbishness of the show have left us in a dark place. Ejaculating haphazard ideas on to a screen doesn't make for good viewing, but creating a great narrative with compelling characters is a craft in its own right - and somehow Frost/Lynch were never able or willing to do this.

David Lynch did not have a story to tell us, and that's why he never bothered to do it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:40 pm

Wow, Gazebo, I bow down to your way with words ... Just beautiful, thanks, for your brilliant articulation of pretty much my own feelings; alas, I'm too lazy to put them on paper and would probably mess it up if I did, so it's super nice to read something coherent and insightful from a fellow longtime TP fan, that you can sign under without a second thought. That last sentence, though, man - ain't that the stinging truth.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:58 pm

Agent Earle wrote:Wow, Gazebo, I bow down to your way with words ... Just beautiful, thanks, for your brilliant articulation of pretty much my own feelings; alas, I'm too lazy to put them on paper and would probably mess it up if I did, so it's super nice to read something coherent and insightful from a fellow longtime TP fan, that you can sign under without a second thought. That last sentence, though, man - ain't that the stinging truth.


Thanks man, I've enjoyed your posts too. You put your neck on the line early, while many of us were still on the fence - I was a long time lurker, but this thread was almost 100 pages long before I dared to speak, and it probably wasn't until part 13 that I gave up on the show. I probably would have kept quiet if you and the others hadn't been as blunt as you were early on, so thank you very much for creating a platform for the rest of us (I see that quite a few disappointed folks joined towards the latter part of the show).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:12 pm

No problem, if it's one thing I'm known for, it's that I can't really keep my trap shut when something bothers me, so I've got that to thank for for being on social margins for the large part. This isn't coming from someone who's bitter about it, though, far from it - I enjoy staying true to myself more than anything.

As for speaking my mind about Twin Peaks, you gotta know that a lot of that comes from my thorough enjoyment of the WHOLE of the original Peaks. Yep, I'm a staunch defender of the so-called crappy segment of Season 2, I've always been articulate about it and I've taken a lot of crap for it over the years, so I've developed a thick skin which comes handy these days :-) Lynch's recent bashing of Season 2 irks me to no end, especially when he at the same time puts forth such a lousy product as Season 3 was... Talk about a sense of self-criticism (or a lack thereof) ...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby The Gazebo » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:39 pm

Agent Earle wrote:As for speaking my mind about Twin Peaks, you gotta know that a lot of that comes from my thorough enjoyment of the WHOLE of the original Peaks. Yep, I'm a staunch defender of the so-called crappy segment of Season 2, I've always been articulate about it and I've taken a lot of crap for it over the years, so I've developed a thick skin which comes handy these days :-) Lynch's recent bashing of Season 2 irks me to no end, especially when he at the same time puts forth such a lousy product as Season 3 was... Talk about a sense of self-criticism (or a lack thereof) ...


While the plot and narrative post-Leland might have been a bit ad-hoc, there is no doubt that the directors managed to keep the spirit, mood and atmosphere consistent throughout. I have no problems seeing the flaws of the latter part of season 2, but they always stayed true to the show. The puppet show we were given in season 3 was so, so alien to the original vibe that even characters like Ben Horne seemed like a tacked-on sticker to please the original fans. I have no idea why Lynch/Frost decided to go down this path, but I get the feeling that Lynch wasn't so much interested in a continuation of TP as he was in his own ideas, while Frost had developed into a mythology/conspiracy nut.

Just consider the iconic scenes and visuals from the original show; Maddy's murder, Ronette's vision, Mike's interrogation, Audrey's dance, Cooper's dream, Cooper throwing rocks at the bottle, Cooper and the Giant (well, almost anything Cooper-ish compared to this season) and so on. Which scenes from this season can rival these? Maybe the mauve room scene, and a few others, depending on your preferences. Add in the daytime feel, and the coldness of the scenes, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Some people have said that this season reflects the coldness and the mundance part of our everyday lives. Fair enough. But I'd like to view it a bit differently: As our lives are somewhat flawed, of course the show itself had to be deeply flawed and mundane. A high quality writing team would never have allowed this to happen.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:12 pm

The Gazebo wrote:I have no idea why Lynch/Frost decided to go down this path, but I get the feeling that Lynch wasn't so much interested in a continuation of TP as he was in his own ideas, while Frost had developed into a mythology/conspiracy nut.



That may be the single best explanation of the driving force(s) (driving force? LOL, what a joke!) behind the creative decisions that resulted in TP: The Return I've heard so far. I'd also add both of them were so sloppy/lazy/disinterested they didn't even bother to check the previous material before they took out the canvas and brushes. Then again, why would they, since properly continuing it, building on that which came before and developing it further, but in a way that has a logical flow and stays true to the original spirit (and in so doing showing some respect for the fandom collective memory and intelligence - or not insulting them, at the very least), was obviously the furthest thing from their minds. Instead, they took out what suited them, turned it inside out and tossed everything else in the trash. How's Annie? Well, you can't very well ask that question if she never existed, can you. Or at least not as Norma's sis. Agree with everything else you point out - excellent analysis.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby rugerblackhawk357 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:28 am

Gabriel wrote:
StrangerDanger wrote:Impressive theory!


So the series will end with Coop pulling Laura alive from the water outside the Martell's house? ;)


damn. this post from the start of this thread aged quite nicely.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:01 am

Pulled this Mark Frost early 00's interview from another thread.http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profil ... _frost.htm

" I haven't seen it [MD]. I heard it was a mess. I knew that the pilot was a mess.

David's strength and weakness is that he is often able to transcend story because he's such a master creating mood. His failing is that he's not a strong storyteller. He doesn't have a lot of interest in telling a story. He's not as interested in character as fragments of personality. He's a surrealist."

Luke: "He's got a great eye for hot looking women."

Mark smiles: "That was always one of his strengths. The mistake that people make about David is that they assume he's an ironist [saying the opposite of what he means]. He's not. He's a sincere simple guy. He doesn't work things out. He's not that good in logic. When people spend a lot of energy trying to figure out exactly what he meant by Mulholland Drive, I can assure you that he didn't know.

"I exchanged emails with [critic] Roger Ebert at one point. He was conducting an online seminar about the meaning of Mulholland Drive. David works like a painter. He throws a canvas up there and you interpret it any way you want. He doesn't have a strong point of view. It's about sensation and feeling and arousing emotions."


If Lynch didn't slide into the "moronic inferno" TR is standing mighty close to the fire. And qualifies as a mess, absolutely. *A mess with some promising moments.


Also *The industry tends to freeze and suspend maturity at a certain age." It's true. It takes a certain obliviousness to get close to that distilled creativity that people call crawling up your own ass. An internationally celebrated, agoraphobic surrealist is going to have an interesting perspective, but it's also going to be a limited one. A distorted and repetitive one, like Google's Deep Dream Generator AI, thus finitely compelling.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gloomferret » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:04 am

Part one of my article covering criticism of The Return is up. I'm more on the mixed side, but hopefully covers some of your issues and more to come in part 2. Feel free to comment.
http://25yearslatersite.com/2017/10/05/ ... -part-one/
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Twin Peaks Podcast » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:08 am

sylvia_north wrote:Pulled this Mark Frost early 00's interview from another thread.http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profil ... _frost.htm

" I haven't seen it [MD]. I heard it was a mess. I knew that the pilot was a mess.

David's strength and weakness is that he is often able to transcend story because he's such a master creating mood. His failing is that he's not a strong storyteller. He doesn't have a lot of interest in telling a story. He's not as interested in character as fragments of personality. He's a surrealist."

Luke: "He's got a great eye for hot looking women."

Mark smiles: "That was always one of his strengths. The mistake that people make about David is that they assume he's an ironist [saying the opposite of what he means]. He's not. He's a sincere simple guy. He doesn't work things out. He's not that good in logic. When people spend a lot of energy trying to figure out exactly what he meant by Mulholland Drive, I can assure you that he didn't know.

"I exchanged emails with [critic] Roger Ebert at one point. He was conducting an online seminar about the meaning of Mulholland Drive. David works like a painter. He throws a canvas up there and you interpret it any way you want. He doesn't have a strong point of view. It's about sensation and feeling and arousing emotions."


If Lynch didn't slide into the "moronic inferno" TR is standing mighty close to the fire. And qualifies as a mess, absolutely. *A mess with some promising moments.


Also *The industry tends to freeze and suspend maturity at a certain age." It's true. It takes a certain obliviousness to get close to that distilled creativity that people call crawling up your own ass. An internationally celebrated, agoraphobic surrealist is going to have an interesting perspective, but it's also going to be a limited one. A distorted and repetitive one, like Google's Deep Dream Generator AI, thus finitely compelling.


Wow... spot on from Mark.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:03 am

Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:
sylvia_north wrote:Pulled this Mark Frost early 00's interview from another thread.http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profil ... _frost.htm

" I haven't seen it [MD]. I heard it was a mess. I knew that the pilot was a mess.

David's strength and weakness is that he is often able to transcend story because he's such a master creating mood. His failing is that he's not a strong storyteller. He doesn't have a lot of interest in telling a story. He's not as interested in character as fragments of personality. He's a surrealist."

Luke: "He's got a great eye for hot looking women."

Mark smiles: "That was always one of his strengths. The mistake that people make about David is that they assume he's an ironist [saying the opposite of what he means]. He's not. He's a sincere simple guy. He doesn't work things out. He's not that good in logic. When people spend a lot of energy trying to figure out exactly what he meant by Mulholland Drive, I can assure you that he didn't know.

"I exchanged emails with [critic] Roger Ebert at one point. He was conducting an online seminar about the meaning of Mulholland Drive. David works like a painter. He throws a canvas up there and you interpret it any way you want. He doesn't have a strong point of view. It's about sensation and feeling and arousing emotions."


If Lynch didn't slide into the "moronic inferno" TR is standing mighty close to the fire. And qualifies as a mess, absolutely. *A mess with some promising moments.


Also *The industry tends to freeze and suspend maturity at a certain age." It's true. It takes a certain obliviousness to get close to that distilled creativity that people call crawling up your own ass. An internationally celebrated, agoraphobic surrealist is going to have an interesting perspective, but it's also going to be a limited one. A distorted and repetitive one, like Google's Deep Dream Generator AI, thus finitely compelling.


Wow... spot on from Mark.


I don't see Frost's comments as necessarily a criticism. This is what makes Lynch's work so special, IMHO (and the work of similar filmmakers as well).

Imagine if the only Twin Peaks had been the European Pilot- it would have ended with a mysterious confrontation with BOB in the boiler room and an even more mysterious scene 25 years later in a Red Room with Cooper, Laura (or her lookalike) and LMFAP. Lynch fans would have been debating the ending for years, with no one point of view on the ending being any more or less valid than that of any other person's point of view.

Now, it's not everyone's cup of tea to end on such an ambiguous note. But for those of us who enjoy that kind of thing, it is delicious, a special and rare treat
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Redlodge » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:33 am

The lack of new posts and the complete lack of interest
says it all. What a wasted opportunity. I really wish that there had been other people involved in the series. It could have been an all out smash and gotten another season maybe more. It was doomed from the opening episodes and slid downhill even faster as the weeks went on. In glad it's over, now I don't have to be mad all week every week anymore.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Venus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:14 pm

mtwentz wrote:
Twin Peaks Podcast wrote:
sylvia_north wrote:Pulled this Mark Frost early 00's interview from another thread.http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profil ... _frost.htm

" I haven't seen it [MD]. I heard it was a mess. I knew that the pilot was a mess.

David's strength and weakness is that he is often able to transcend story because he's such a master creating mood. His failing is that he's not a strong storyteller. He doesn't have a lot of interest in telling a story. He's not as interested in character as fragments of personality. He's a surrealist."

Luke: "He's got a great eye for hot looking women."

Mark smiles: "That was always one of his strengths. The mistake that people make about David is that they assume he's an ironist [saying the opposite of what he means]. He's not. He's a sincere simple guy. He doesn't work things out. He's not that good in logic. When people spend a lot of energy trying to figure out exactly what he meant by Mulholland Drive, I can assure you that he didn't know.

"I exchanged emails with [critic] Roger Ebert at one point. He was conducting an online seminar about the meaning of Mulholland Drive. David works like a painter. He throws a canvas up there and you interpret it any way you want. He doesn't have a strong point of view. It's about sensation and feeling and arousing emotions."


If Lynch didn't slide into the "moronic inferno" TR is standing mighty close to the fire. And qualifies as a mess, absolutely. *A mess with some promising moments.


Also *The industry tends to freeze and suspend maturity at a certain age." It's true. It takes a certain obliviousness to get close to that distilled creativity that people call crawling up your own ass. An internationally celebrated, agoraphobic surrealist is going to have an interesting perspective, but it's also going to be a limited one. A distorted and repetitive one, like Google's Deep Dream Generator AI, thus finitely compelling.


Wow... spot on from Mark.


I don't see Frost's comments as necessarily a criticism. This is what makes Lynch's work so special, IMHO (and the work of similar filmmakers as well).

Imagine if the only Twin Peaks had been the European Pilot- it would have ended with a mysterious confrontation with BOB in the boiler room and an even more mysterious scene 25 years later in a Red Room with Cooper, Laura (or her lookalike) and LMFAP. Lynch fans would have been debating the ending for years, with no one point of view on the ending being any more or less valid than that of any other person's point of view.

Now, it's not everyone's cup of tea to end on such an ambiguous note. But for those of us who enjoy that kind of thing, it is delicious, a special and rare treat


As long as these are legitimate quotes I don't see Mark Frost's comments as criticism either. It's a statement of fact. However he has hit the nail on the head. DL's failing is that he is not a strong storyteller. I actually don't know if he collaborated on script with a lot of his movies. But I do know that series 1 and 2 of TP were a collaboration and melting pot of ideas from many and TP is one of the things DL is most famous for as it had universal appeal and worldwide success. Therein lies the rub. There wasn't a massive melting pot of creative talent inputting into TR and it showed. Big time.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:46 pm

mtwentz wrote:Imagine if the only Twin Peaks had been the European Pilot- it would have ended with a mysterious confrontation with BOB in the boiler room and an even more mysterious scene 25 years later in a Red Room with Cooper, Laura (or her lookalike) and LMFAP. Lynch fans would have been debating the ending for years, with no one point of view on the ending being any more or less valid than that of any other person's point of view.

Now, it's not everyone's cup of tea to end on such an ambiguous note. But for those of us who enjoy that kind of thing, it is delicious, a special and rare treat


Yeah I dont like to waste my time debating about hypothetical scenarios like this. Pilots aren't seen if they aren't picked up, and the European would not have existed if it wasn't picked up in the US from my understanding.

That said, TP is the most talked about of DL's work because of its longevity, cultural significance, stand out unique quality. The pilot would have been a curiosity for niche cinephiles who loved EH and Dune and Elephant Man, but without the massive career making power of TP, most of us wouldn't be here. There's nothing to theorize about for years because it'd just be an obscure failed pilot with a funny midget sequence, and MD's raw pilot --which I've seen-- didn't lend itself to any theorizing. MD pilot is a forgettable curiosity, not to mention the fact that the Lynch fans like me wouldn't have seen it, or the early short films, if TP didn't make his career and the demand for ephemera like this ,and the very existence of MD, or WAH or LH possible. IE was ambiguous but there's not much to say about it, the slapped on Cooper dream is surely less interesting than DL's last feature. This line of speculation is an intellectual dead end. The Pilot can't even be compared to the sprawling mediocrity that was TR. If the opening parts of TR which are also intensely captivating- as its own beast or as a dreamy late coda to TP - stopped there I don't believe we'd discuss them for years either, for what it's worth. They are showy and entertaining for sure, but short on the substance of WKLP.


Furthermore, 'DL is not a good storyteller or good at logic' is absolutely criticism

crit·i·cal

adjective

1.
expressing adverse or disapproving comments or judgments.

2.expressing or involving an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.

Frost is observing faults and merits here for better or worse. Everything that isn't out and out wanking Lynch off is not begging for strawman defenses. Frost didn't say anything about an ambiguous ending, and you don't need a refined palate to appreciate ambiguity. People can stop congratulating themselves on this kind of thing in a thread where the thrust is shining a light on the same sloppiness Frost is talking about.

ps I love MD and LH and their ambiguity. Recently saw All is Lost and that ending was moving and enchanting and profound, and I love playing with time paradoxes- Triangle starring MD's Melissa George- did that particularly well. These conceits are not TR's failures, though you are correct some people dont like open endings and mind bends and some people do. That goes without saying.
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