Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:10 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
LateReg wrote:Interesting. But why do you wonder if Chen feels like she dodged a bullet? In what way do you mean?


She thinks that Joan Chen wouldn't want to be part of a great work of art, loved by critics and adored by fans.


Come on. Reception of this "great work of art" wasn't as unanimous as all that. A little perspective wouldn't hurt.


It absolutely was, all but one or two mayor critics hailed it as somewhere between great and best ever. As for fan reaction - check f.ex. the polls on this or other websites - not to mention the extremely active and positive social media buzz for the show throughout the summer. The people in this thread do not in any way represent the general reaction to The Return. As I have pointed out before this thread is active mainly due to the same few people posting a lot.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:26 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
She thinks that Joan Chen wouldn't want to be part of a great work of art, loved by critics and adored by fans.


Come on. Reception of this "great work of art" wasn't as unanimous as all that. A little perspective wouldn't hurt.


It absolutely was, all but one or two mayor critics hailed it as somewhere between great and best ever. As for fan reaction - check f.ex. the polls on this or other websites - not to mention the extremely active and positive social media buzz for the show throughout the summer. The people in this thread do not in any way represent the general reaction to The Return. As I have pointed out before this thread is active mainly due to the same few people posting a lot.


I don't see it that way. I recall a number of critical articles, found over the web, that were at least skeptical of the new season, if not downright hostile. And a lot of it is to be read between the lines.
I can't speak for the fans in general, but practically everyone I know that has watched the series and was at least a moderate fan of the original gave up after about 5, 6 parts, that's how bad he thought it was.
As for your analysis regarding the life of this thread, one only needs to look back over a few pages to see your "finding" is simply untrue. And since we're discussing "the same few people posting a lot" (something that clearly irks you, even though the "negative" posters stay within the confines of their own thread - I guess one is only allowed to post if he repeats the "Lynch is genius, this is the best thing in the whole world" schtik over and over and over again), I'd point out a good number of those continuous posters have come over from the Profoundly Satisfied side, you included.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:15 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
Come on. Reception of this "great work of art" wasn't as unanimous as all that. A little perspective wouldn't hurt.


It absolutely was, all but one or two mayor critics hailed it as somewhere between great and best ever. As for fan reaction - check f.ex. the polls on this or other websites - not to mention the extremely active and positive social media buzz for the show throughout the summer. The people in this thread do not in any way represent the general reaction to The Return. As I have pointed out before this thread is active mainly due to the same few people posting a lot.


I don't see it that way. I recall a number of critical articles, found over the web, that were at least skeptical of the new season, if not downright hostile. And a lot of it is to be read between the lines.
I can't speak for the fans in general, but practically everyone I know that has watched the series and was at least a moderate fan of the original gave up after about 5, 6 parts, that's how bad he thought it was.
As for your analysis regarding the life of this thread, one only needs to look back over a few pages to see your "finding" is simply untrue. And since we're discussing "the same few people posting a lot" (something that clearly irks you, even though the "negative" posters stay within the confines of their own thread - I guess one is only allowed to post if he repeats the "Lynch is genius, this is the best thing in the whole world" schtik over and over and over again), I'd point out a good number of those continuous posters have come over from the Profoundly Satisfied side, you included.


The thing about all of this is that, in my experience, the most passionate supporters always win out in the long run. What I mean is that I agree with you, Earle, that this show is hated by a lot of people. But the majority of coverage on the show on the web was positive, despite a few strong detractors (Time, Deadline, etc.). So even if only, say 1,000 people like the show and 10,000 don't, the fact is that if 50 of the people who love the show are writers who will keep spreading the love, then eventually the show's status officially becomes "Masterpiece" rather than "disaster." Most of the lists that will come out over the years will be Best-Ofs, so most of the dissenting voices will eventually be lost, for better or worse, even if the word "divisive" will continue to be used to describe the show. That's just usually how it works, though I dare say that even if Twin Peaks were to appear on a few Worst-Of-All-Time lists it would only enhance its strange allure. So to bring it back to Chen, I see no reason that she wouldn't be proud to have been a part of this, and don't certainly don't see any reason she would have felt that she dodged a bullet, unless she personally didn't like the show.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:25 pm

LateReg wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
It absolutely was, all but one or two mayor critics hailed it as somewhere between great and best ever. As for fan reaction - check f.ex. the polls on this or other websites - not to mention the extremely active and positive social media buzz for the show throughout the summer. The people in this thread do not in any way represent the general reaction to The Return. As I have pointed out before this thread is active mainly due to the same few people posting a lot.


I don't see it that way. I recall a number of critical articles, found over the web, that were at least skeptical of the new season, if not downright hostile. And a lot of it is to be read between the lines.
I can't speak for the fans in general, but practically everyone I know that has watched the series and was at least a moderate fan of the original gave up after about 5, 6 parts, that's how bad he thought it was.
As for your analysis regarding the life of this thread, one only needs to look back over a few pages to see your "finding" is simply untrue. And since we're discussing "the same few people posting a lot" (something that clearly irks you, even though the "negative" posters stay within the confines of their own thread - I guess one is only allowed to post if he repeats the "Lynch is genius, this is the best thing in the whole world" schtik over and over and over again), I'd point out a good number of those continuous posters have come over from the Profoundly Satisfied side, you included.


The thing about all of this is that, in my experience, the most passionate supporters always win out in the long run. What I mean is that I agree with you, Earle, that this show is hated by a lot of people. But the majority of coverage on the show on the web was positive, despite a few strong detractors (Time, Deadline, etc.). So even if only, say 1,000 people like the show and 10,000 don't, the fact is that if 50 of the people who love the show are writers who will keep spreading the love, then eventually the show's status officially becomes "Masterpiece" rather than "disaster." Most of the lists that will come out over the years will be Best-Ofs, so most of the dissenting voices will eventually be lost, for better or worse, even if the word "divisive" will continue to be used to describe the show. That's just usually how it works, though I dare say that even if Twin Peaks were to appear on a few Worst-Of-All-Time lists it would only enhance its strange allure. So to bring it back to Chen, I see no reason that she wouldn't be proud to have been a part of this, and don't certainly don't see any reason she would have felt that she dodged a bullet, unless she personally didn't like the show.


I have no problems with what you wrote, it all makes sense and is thoughtfully put. Speaking of Chen, Ontkean, Laurie etc. and trying to speculate about their reactions is ungrateful errand, 'cause, simply put, we don't have the slightest indication as to what on Earth did they think about the show, had they even seen it. That being said, I like Sylvia North's post just the same - it has that defying spirit of us, the Profoundly Disappointed. :)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:54 pm

KnewItsPa wrote:Thought about TP:TR today for the first time in ages. The thought was how disappointing it was. Just came to share that.

Ouch. Same here.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:05 pm

I am rather hopeful of hearing “honest” reactions to the new show from the original cast one day. For instance, Lipton in 2001 opened up about the fact that she found FWWM too dark and joyless. I have to wonder how she felt about S3. I could see Kimmy Robertson having some choice words about the green glove battle, given her unfiltered comments on many absurd elements in S2.

I also REALLY want to see MJA’s reaction to the Evolution of the Arm.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:02 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I am rather hopeful of hearing “honest” reactions to the new show from the original cast one day. For instance, Lipton in 2001 opened up about the fact that she found FWWM too dark and joyless. I have to wonder how she felt about S3. I could see Kinmy Robertson having some choice words about the green glove battle, given her unfiltered comments on many absurd elements in S2.

I also REALLY want to see MJA’s reaction to the Evolution of the Arm.


It seems likely to me something is going on behind the scenes with MJA. He trashed the show on FB up until a few days before it premiered. It's been too long now to just conclude he got religion and decided posting negative stuff about Lynch, Frost and Showtime.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:12 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:Thought about TP:TR today for the first time in ages. The thought was how disappointing it was. Just came to share that.

Ouch. Same here.


Since The Return, I've thought more about the afterlife, dualism, identity, memory, amnesia, the passage of time and ultimately, whether 'we live inside a dream', then I ever have in my life.

I think the folks who were disappointed were looking for something that wasn't there (the soap opera and/or murder mystery aspects of the original series) without realizing they missed what is there: one of the great 'mind bending' psychological films of all time.

But then again, the mind bending stuff is not everyone's cup of tea. I come from the background of being a mind explorer/mind warrior from a young age, '2001' being my first favorite film. So I am very prejudiced toward this type of cinema.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:46 pm

mtwentz wrote:It seems likely to me something is going on behind the scenes with MJA. He trashed the show on FB up until a few days before it premiered. It's been too long now to just conclude he got religion and decided posting negative stuff about Lynch, Frost and Showtime.


He stopped posting ANYTHING for months, though, even his beloved political stuff. I would guess that he was threatened with legal action due to some of his more outrageous allegations and decided it was in his best interest to go into complete radio silence. But the optimist in me hopes that those in his support circle convinced him to seek the help and treatment he needs.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:30 pm

mtwentz wrote:Since The Return, I've thought more about the afterlife, dualism, identity, memory, amnesia, the passage of time and ultimately, whether 'we live inside a dream', then I ever have in my life.

I think the folks who were disappointed were looking for something that wasn't there (the soap opera and/or murder mystery aspects of the original series) without realizing they missed what is there: one of the great 'mind bending' psychological films of all time.


That's some of it, but the desire for the expected mystery stuff had to disappear a few hours in, if people kept watching. I'm sure casual or just curious fans ditched early on. For me, I had more issues with what was on the screen, how it was working in and of itself, after I got over the shock of the new direction of the show. You still can't help comparing it to the original, even subconsciously. Even if I rewatch it, some things might never work, but a lot still does.

I do feel that I was overly negative in my feelings towards the show, though. I'm generally a humbug, though, and rarely heap praise on something right away (and if I do, I'm more likely to enjoy it less on second viewing). The show's got a lot to unpack, and I still haven't re-watched the final two to give them a better appraisal. The ideas you mention are present, although what continues to piss me off is the assertion by anyone that the whole thing is just a literal nighttime/bedtime dream of whatever character. If anything, it's dream as metaphor.

The show is without question a difficult and challenging work, even challenging at times from an endurance perspective, which I suspect was the point in some cases. I'll certainly take it over most scripted dramas today. For some reason I keep coming back to Sam Stanley himself in "Designated Survivor", the most standard and unsurprising example of the form that I watch today, as sort of the opposite of this show.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby powerleftist » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:24 pm

mtwentz wrote:I think the folks who were disappointed were looking for something that wasn't there (the soap opera and/or murder mystery aspects of the original series) without realizing they missed what is there: one of the great 'mind bending' psychological films of all time.

But then again, the mind bending stuff is not everyone's cup of tea. I come from the background of being a mind explorer/mind warrior from a young age, '2001' being my first favorite film. So I am very prejudiced toward this type of cinema.


tl;dr: you are a brilliant person and we are stupid
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:48 pm

mtwentz wrote:But then again, the mind bending stuff is not everyone's cup of tea. I come from the background of being a mind explorer/mind warrior from a young age, '2001' being my first favorite film. So I am very prejudiced toward this type of cinema.


Ah yes, 2001. PBS marketing was a powerful force back in the 80's. "Alive from Off Center" and all that. Unless you are in your 60's and saw it in the theater.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:55 pm

IcedOver wrote: The ideas you mention are present, although what continues to piss me off is the assertion by anyone that the whole thing is just a literal nighttime/bedtime dream of whatever character. If anything, it's dream as metaphor.


I agree with you there, and I think this is where Lynch is the master, and directors like Christopher Nolan are the apprentices. In my view the 'who is the dreamer' is a similar question to 'what is the meaning of life' or 'what or whom is God'.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:51 am

powerleftist wrote:
mtwentz wrote:I think the folks who were disappointed were looking for something that wasn't there (the soap opera and/or murder mystery aspects of the original series) without realizing they missed what is there: one of the great 'mind bending' psychological films of all time.

But then again, the mind bending stuff is not everyone's cup of tea. I come from the background of being a mind explorer/mind warrior from a young age, '2001' being my first favorite film. So I am very prejudiced toward this type of cinema.


tl;dr: you are a brilliant person and we are stupid


Not what I'm saying at all. Many intelligent, educated people are not into mind exploration and surrealism. It's not intelligent vs. non-intelligent. I'm quite sure the majority of the business and political elite of the world are not mind explorers, and yet no one would accuse them of being stupid.

There is a relatively small strata of society that are interested in exploring the boundaries of the human mind and the nature of human existence itself and there's nothing wrong with not enjoying those things.

The original Twin Peaks was a nighttime soap opera murder mystery that pushed boundaries with a few surrealistic moments and quirky characters and clever, intelligent dialogue. FWWM and The Return are, in my opinion, are 'Mind Movies' that just happen to be based on the characters of the Twin Peaks series. Thus it's only natural that some viewers who loved the original series would be less enthralled with its two sequels.

I personally love the original series, FWWM and 'The Return'. But I also recognize it's useless to compare them since I like them for different reasons. It's true that the snappy dialogue of the original series, and the viewer's connection with the characters far surpasses anything in FWWM and The Return. It's also true that the visual and audio experience of The Return and FWWM far surpasses anything in the original series.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:23 am

mtwentz wrote:
powerleftist wrote:
mtwentz wrote:I personally love the original series, FWWM and 'The Return'. But I also recognize it's useless to compare them since I like them for different reasons. It's true that the snappy dialogue of the original series, and the viewer's connection with the characters far surpasses anything in FWWM and The Return. It's also true that the visual and audio experience of The Return and FWWM far surpasses anything in the original series.



I don't think that is right, at least not universally so. I think the portrayal of Laura Palmer in FWWM, and the audiences possibility to connect with and understand the character, outweighs even the best moments from the series. Same can be said for where the last two episodes of "The Return" take Cooper - we start to understand and empathize with the character on a much deeper level. I get your point, just doesn't have to undersell the achievements of FWWM and The Return.

A bit of Harley Peyton dialogue would have been great though :-)

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