Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:37 am

eyeboogers wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
powerleftist wrote:



I don't think that is right, at least not universally so. I think the portrayal of Laura Palmer in FWWM, and the audiences possibility to connect with and understand the character, outweighs even the best moments from the series.


I was gonna say the same thing. I feel more of a connection with Laura in FWWM than any character in the original show.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:16 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
mtwentz wrote:



I don't think that is right, at least not universally so. I think the portrayal of Laura Palmer in FWWM, and the audiences possibility to connect with and understand the character, outweighs even the best moments from the series.


I was gonna say the same thing. I feel more of a connection with Laura in FWWM than any character in the original show.


Ok, I'll concede that point. Maybe the town of Twin Peaks itself feels more at a distance in FWWM, because frankly we don't spend much time with most of the townsfolk.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:01 pm

Ok, I'll concede that point. Maybe the town of Twin Peaks itself feels more at a distance in FWWM, because frankly we don't spend much time with most of the townsfolk.


Which is something with which I never had a problem. It was ‘Twin Peaks’ with a secondary title of FWWM. The new show, on-screen, says its Twin Peaks (not TPTR) and claims to be a third season of the television show when it’s really a spin-off of FWWM.

At the end of the day, had the 18-part pile of doggy do-do we were served up with this year been called on screen ‘Twin Peaks: Blue Rose’ ‘Twin Peaks: Wacky Fun in Las Vegas’ or ’Twin Peaks: David Lynch Masturbates Over His Camcorder for 18 Hours,’ it might have acceptable because it’s a spinoff.

As it stands – and I say this with utter sadness in my heart – Twin Peaks season three was the biggest televisual letdown of the year and the biggest waste of my time and good will. Seeing such crap served up week in, week out and the usual bunch of critic sycophants write thousands of words to fillibuster any suggestions that it wasn’t crap, just shows that Western civilisation really is in a cultural death spiral.

Sometimes you just have to be honest and say ‘the old guy’s a senile has-been who just spunked a wad of someone else’s money on a vanity project in the contemptuous knowledge that he knew what he put on screen would be applauded, no matter how crap it was.’
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:24 pm

I think I can look at it objectively. Sure, I’m disappointed that it was not a story direction I’d want it to go in. But even in the direction Lynch and Frost chose, it’s confounding.

We have a scene where Cole brings in Tammy, Albert and Diane... “I’m in!” “Let’s rock!” This should signify that we are about to go on an adventure, go deeper, fasten your seatbelts... but the. Nothing, reverts exactly back to the same static scene again and again. Nothing really builds on itself.

A situation like Ed and Norma’s reunion is great... yet, we only have the tension and buildup that Ed is still married to Nadine one scene before... instead of say, several episodes before.

I’m all for the deep mystery of the TP universe remaining undefined and left ambiguous, that’s fine. My main problem with the whole mapped out new series is the simple story structure. Story telling has been basically found and perfected for thousand and thousand of years, no need to try to reinvent it ...only put your spin through script and direction, your style and exploration of the human condition.

Objectively, I think the biggest problem is in refusing to setup an objective for the Mr. C character... to provide a clear line of tension and urgency. Again, it doesn’t have to be overly defined, just a MacGuffin.

Also too many characters that ultimately bring nothing to the table for themes or even exploration. Yes, most of the actors are excellent... but it’s like making a meal with all your favorite ingredients in the world thrown together in one big pot. The Mullen brothers make very little sense to me in the story structure, especially at the end to see them standing in the sheriffs station watching a Bob orb whereas the inhabitants of the apartment building in Buckhorn in the first episode work as part of a vignette to building the journey.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:38 pm

You know what, I’m really sick of this “senile” nonsense. I’ve found this thread by and large to be an engaging and thoughtful contemplation of the season’s weaknesses (of which I admit there are a number, despite my overall love for the work). But certain posters keep coming back to this idea of DKL as senile senior citizen, as an explanation for the season’s excesses. First of all, this expresses a woeful ignorance for the realities of film production. A film director is not only an artist; he is a shrewd business manager, adhering to a grueling daily schedule and budget, and managing a workforce in the thousands. DKL did the unheard-of in delivering an 18-hour product on time and within the appointed budget. You may feel the result is absolutely awful qualitatively, and that’s your prerogative. But there is absolutely no reason to assume he is “senile”; what he accomplished with this season from a purely logistical standpoint is an insanely impressive feat indicating a physical and mental prowess belying his age. Artistically, plenty of younger directors in full possession of their mental faculties have delivered terrible, terrible films — and at least TR, whether you liked it or not, is undeniably more interesting than, say, a Michael Bay joint.

Secondly, this line of thought ignores the fact that the style and pacing of TR have their genesis in DKL’s earliest works. This show feels more like a spiritual successor to Eraserhead than anything else he has done, even if I think TR falls short of Eraserhead’s masterpiece status. Is DKL’s age a factor in what we ended up getting onscreen? Absolutely. At this stage in his career, he is an artist with nothing to prove, no reason to steer toward the mainstream or give an inch to executives. This is the DKL who made Eraserhead, refusing to compromise or change a frame, unfiltered and not giving a shit. Is that a good thing? YMMV (I personally find it thrilling, even if the outcome is imperfect). But the fact that he is being true to his vision is no reason to question his mental acuity.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:48 pm

I’ve certainly never said that about him. He’s clearly an extraordinary visionary and artist. My main problem ultimately came from the story structure. I can’t lie and say I wasn’t sitting there at the end not being disappointed. I legitimately got chills or big smiles or jumped out of my chair excited during many parts of this ride. My analytical brain nowhere a part of it... just joy. The Chromatic scene with James, Shelly being one. Cooper saying he is the FBI and finally being back, Audrey waking up into the mirror.... were the most thrilling moments for me (rivaling my favorite moments of the first original fourteen episodes.). Lynch still has got it. It was simply the structure that didn’t work for me.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 pm

Audrey — My post wasn’t directed at you! Gabriel referred to DKL as senile in the post before you. Your criticisms have been consistently level-headed and persuasive.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:38 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:I’ve certainly never said that about him. He’s clearly an extraordinary visionary and artist. My main problem ultimately came from the story structure. I can’t lie and say I wasn’t sitting there at the end not being disappointed. I legitimately got chills or big smiles or jumped out of my chair excited during many parts of this ride. My analytical brain nowhere a part of it... just joy. The Chromatic scene with James, Shelly being one. Cooper saying he is the FBI and finally being back, Audrey waking up into the mirror.... were the most thrilling moments for me (rivaling my favorite moments of the first original fourteen episodes.). Lynch still has got it. It was simply the structure that didn’t work for me.


I disagree with you that artists should stop experimenting with story structure. Especially since distribution platforms and consumption patterns are in rapid flux. Even if a formula has been "perfected", where building on Aristotle, books, broadcast television and the feature film might have done a lot of trial and error and generated results, but this trial and error hasn't been fully explored yet for transmedial storyworlds. Yes, TPTR aired on showtime, but it was mostly digested digitally. People were able to watch it more than once, discuss and revise their theories etc. etc. Therefore it is not the same as the broadcast nature of the original series. Of course these possibilities should be explored. One way to do this is to break all of the old rules once again - in an altered media setting, to find out whether they still apply. This is exactly what Lynch/Frost did, evidenced by how Frost's comment as to what was going on the Green Glove fight was "deus ex machina".

It is world class chefs experimenting in the kitchen, even if the meal isn't what you'd expected - based on the meal they served you in 1990, I am really happy that someone is still pushing forward.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:09 pm

I think I’m agreeing with you, and probably worded myself poorly. Yes, explore and put your own spin on it. I guess I mean story structure in simple terms of the tennents of drama, building, human condition. This felt revved up, pulled back, revved up, pulled back continually. I almost someone else basically mapped out the story for Lynch and gave him the story points to hit... like give him Goldilocks and the three bears, and we see how he hits those marks while still going deeper as the artist.

Any feeling I had during this season was me bringing my own history of nostalgia to it. If it were an original work of all new people, I think I would only find it clinical and cold... only that there are some terrific actors that bring vitality and nuance to it. Whew read when Peaks was firing on all cylinders it was peeling the onion, deepening the characters. (Selfish Audrey lurks in the shadows and cries at Leland’s plight, Tough Bobby breaks down in front of Jacoby, etc.) No one changes or is explored in The Return (to me). And to me, that is all there ever is in storytelling, the human condition. We can explore the metaphysical and the great unknown, but again only through character. What the character processes about it.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:57 pm

Audrey Horne wrote: No one changes or is explored in The Return (to me). And to me, that is all there ever is in storytelling, the human condition. We can explore the metaphysical and the great unknown, but again only through character. What the character processes about it.


Some of the character changes in the original series were horrifically bad, in fact most of the characters had outlived their usefulness by the show's end, Cooper being one of the few exceptions. So character development in Twin Peaks can be highly overrated - Ben Horne and Albert turning into nice guys are two great examples :-).

But once again, it's just counterproductive to compare The Return to the original. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and one can prefer one over the other, but in some ways it's like comparing apples and oranges.

There's nothing in The Return that has the gut wrenching emotional impact on me like when the principal loses his composure when announcing Laura's death or like when Leland kills Maddy. But there's nothing in the original Twin Peaks like Cooper in the Purple Room. or the nuclear explosion, or Cooper's face imposed over a scene saying in slow mo, 'We live inside a dream'. And I don't think anything in the original Twin Peaks or in FWWM is as disturbing as Sarah/Judy trying to destroy Laura's picture.

So I think comparing the three different Twin Peaks works we now have in the bucket (original series, FWWM, and The Return) is very difficult to do, since they are all approaching the same world, but at very different angles. I personally love them all, and depending on my tastes and proclivities on any given day, I will favor one over the others.

As far as not knowing Mr. C's motivations- I fail to see how that level of detail adds anything to the suspense and tension. In fact, part of the fun is piecing together exactly what Mr. C is after. It's clear he's after Judy and he needs the coordinates to find her/it, but we don't know exactly why until Frost's book, but that's OK, because what our imagination can cook up is plenty to keep the dramatic tension, IMHO.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:20 pm

I’m not comparing the Return to the original, only using the good examples of the original of what I meant by tenants of drama and character building. An example of what works for me in general in storytelling.

I also understand what you’re saying about the thrill of piecing together what Mr. C is after. The difference in the affect for me is I feel even the creators and actor are adrift in his quest. Everything is too nebulous to me on a basic level. I can’t go back and enjoy it in retrospect because everything seems like a dead end, every setup an ultimate misfire. Granted, some parts and performances I’m saying nice! Neat! Bravo. Just story structure I wanted more of a hat trick.

And I’m happy there are people that are in love with it, I wanted to so, so much. But I can’t not say I’m disappointed. I really, truly didn’t want to be.

I don’t even know what to talk about regarding themes or ideas. Duality? Not really? Rape, mistreatment of women? There was a start but no exploration. Loss? Everyone has a double, but no Accountability? Maybe if Coooer and Mr. C were in the end the same person all the time, legitimate split halves then we’d have something to latch onto and apply to our own lives.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:44 pm

Having watched part 17 last night, I'm more convinced than ever that certain scenes from 18 occur before the sheriff station scene.

That said, I found it much more enjoyable knowing the failures of the series (to me), so I could look for clues to "why."

Someday, I'll go back. For now, I remain significantly disappointed.

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:45 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I am rather hopeful of hearing “honest” reactions to the new show from the original cast one day. For instance, Lipton in 2001 opened up about the fact that she found FWWM too dark and joyless. I have to wonder how she felt about S3. I could see Kimmy Robertson having some choice words about the green glove battle, given her unfiltered comments on many absurd elements in S2.

I also REALLY want to see MJA’s reaction to the Evolution of the Arm.


Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking when I wrote that. I really truly wonder if Peggy L. is feeling like this was worse for her than FWWM. And also MJA saying he always thought the pilot was a bore except for his being in it. I've talked with a lot of cult/old school celebrities frankly about their work off the record, and some of them laugh at obsessive fanboys, or can't fathom people liking it, that it's not their taste, that they didn't watch it etc. So yeah, that's where I'm coming from.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:33 am

Audrey Horne wrote:I’m not comparing the Return to the original, only using the good examples of the original of what I meant by tenants of drama and character building. An example of what works for me in general in storytelling.

I also understand what you’re saying about the thrill of piecing together what Mr. C is after. The difference in the affect for me is I feel even the creators and actor are adrift in his quest. Everything is too nebulous to me on a basic level. I can’t go back and enjoy it in retrospect because everything seems like a dead end, every setup an ultimate misfire. Granted, some parts and performances I’m saying nice! Neat! Bravo. Just story structure I wanted more of a hat trick.

And I’m happy there are people that are in love with it, I wanted to so, so much. But I can’t not say I’m disappointed. I really, truly didn’t want to be.

I don’t even know what to talk about regarding themes or ideas. Duality? Not really? Rape, mistreatment of women? There was a start but no exploration. Loss? Everyone has a double, but no Accountability? Maybe if Coooer and Mr. C were in the end the same person all the time, legitimate split halves then we’d have something to latch onto and apply to our own lives.


This is one of the reasons I stay on this thread, so we can engage in this interesting and respectful conversations. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were consciously comparing The Return with the original, but as IcedOver noted, subconsciously, it's almost inevitable.

The Return, in my opinion, is a work of grand themes related to human psychology (consciousness: dream vs. wake state, amnesia/identity, dying/death and rebirth, and the passage of time or at least the human perception of the passage of time etc.) and several subthemes (modern suburban life, guns in America, violence against women, ranting Youtube prophets).

One of the possibilities that really tripped me out during the first half of The Return was when many of us on this board were contemplating the possibility that Rancho Rosa was a 'manufactured reality', which got me thinking even further, what is a 'manufactured reality' and is it possible we are living in such a manufactured reality now? How do we know we are not in a dream, and death is just waking up from that dream (obviously not my idea, but one that goes back thousands of years).

Amnesia was also really important to The Return, IMHO. Several characters experienced absolute amnesia, including Cooper, Laura, Gordon and Albert. Amnesia to me is a very important component of Eastern spirituality, where there are some strains of thought that the universe is literally a conscious entity playing hide and seek with itself, amnesia being something we all suffer from, since we have literally forgotten who we really are.

So since I have been interested in such questions since I can remember, for me The Return was a real treat: Films/TV shows that really explore the human mind tn an entertaining way are exceedingly hard to come by. (There are films like "The Matrix", "Total Recall" and "Inception" that attempt to touch on such topics, and I like all those movies, but ultimately they just become 'action flicks', with all the mind stuff put on the backburner.)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:01 am

M. T.: Have you seen Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? If not, I think it would be right up your alley.

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