Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

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Gabriel
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:19 pm

I think, for me, Lynch is a director who has been in artistic decline for the better part of two decades. His last great film, for me (emphasis on my personal view,) was The Straight Story. Mulholland Dr – a fix-up movie from a TV pilot – wasn’t good and I don’t care what critics say. It was 90 moderately compelling minutes of a TV pilot followed by 45 minutes of dross. Inland Empire was just awful.

Sadly, the new Twin Peaks felt like more Inland Empire. I’m unashamedly one of the ‘coffee and cherry pie’ fans. I wanted to see Coop escape the Lodge and engage in a new mystery in the town, given the wealth of possibilities thrown up by Laura’s diary. I love the idea of the perfect town and it’s seedy underbelly, with the citizens being the focus and the supernatural element kept bubbling under the surface.

I’d rather have had more of Evelyn’s manipulations and Josie’s Hong Kong cadre showing up than talking neuron trees and Dougie. Basically, I wanted a return to ‘the town where no one is innocent’ than a strange 19-hour video experiment.

It’s fair enough that the creators had a different opinion, but it felt like a completely separate project that was ‘Twin-Peaks-ified’ in order to get sold. That’s why I consider the whole of TPTR to be artistically senile. It was like an Alzheimer’s patient – memories of the past all over the place, hallucinations and no short term memory.

Had it not been sold to me as actual ‘Twin Peaks,’ rather some kind of ‘Lynchworld’ TV show that would feature Twin Peaks characters, I’d have likely said, in the words of Zaphod Beeblebrox’s personal brain care specialist: ‘Vell David’s just zis guy, you know!’
Kilmoore
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:46 pm

Gabriel wrote:it felt like a completely separate project that was ‘Twin-Peaks-ified’ in order to get sold.

This is the most solid theory about TPTR there is. It's going to take quite a lot to convince me this isn't the case.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Gabriel wrote:It’s fair enough that the creators had a different opinion, but it felt like a completely separate project that was ‘Twin-Peaks-ified’ in order to get sold. That’s why I consider the whole of TPTR to be artistically senile. It was like an Alzheimer’s patient – memories of the past all over the place, hallucinations and no short term memory.


Ahh see, this I agree with. I think the series’ explorations of memory/identity loss and the fuzziness of the relationship between past, present and future was a very intentional theme/motif. Someone asked Mark on the AMA whether these elements were influenced by his experience with his father’s mental decline, and he said it was too personal to discuss in that forum.

Your previous post(s) seemed to imply that DKL himself was senile, and I find such baseless speculation objectionable. But your characterization of the show as “artistically senile” is spot-on, although I think you intend it to be more critical than I do.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:45 pm

I am loving all of this discussion, finding it cordial... and for me, cathartic.

Funny for me, I was pretty forgiving of the hiccups I felt with it along the way. I found Episode 16 to be one of the most satisfying penultimate installments of any series... Diane’s confession, and both Cooper and Audrey waking up. I was never mire excited during the week until the finale.

What is even more funny is (if you know my history of love and hate with the series), I’m right back to square one. Cooper and Audrey are still both in questionably worse limbos, and I will probably only post theories of frustration of the meandering, unfocused parts. Like Cooper, Audrey and Laura, I am still in my own personal hell!
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sylvia_north
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:03 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Gabriel wrote:It’s fair enough that the creators had a different opinion, but it felt like a completely separate project that was ‘Twin-Peaks-ified’ in order to get sold. That’s why I consider the whole of TPTR to be artistically senile. It was like an Alzheimer’s patient – memories of the past all over the place, hallucinations and no short term memory.


Ahh see, this I agree with. I think the series’ explorations of memory/identity loss and the fuzziness of the relationship between past, present and future was a very intentional theme/motif. Someone asked Mark on the AMA whether these elements were influenced by his experience with his father’s mental decline, and he said it was too personal to discuss in that forum.

Your previous post(s) seemed to imply that DKL himself was senile, and I find such baseless speculation objectionable. But your characterization of the show as “artistically senile” is spot-on, although I think you intend it to be more critical than I do.


Hallucinations and no short term memory can be a good description of expressionism- the pure mood/feeling that is DL’s forte.
Not just Cooper’s continuous identity, but the entire fictional universe has gone through the Dougie-mind filter. I didn’t read this as Lynch being senile, but he (and about 30% Frost from what I’ve heard) did handle the continuum in a way that’s a lot like brain damage- and a lot of experts say TM causes brain damage. I don’t think any speculation is baseless. We still speculate on wtf caused Van Gogh’s visions.

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/06/17 ... ibilities/
http://www.vangoghgallery.com/misc/mental.html
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IcedOver
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:02 am

Gabriel wrote: Mulholland Dr – a fix-up movie from a TV pilot – wasn’t good and I don’t care what critics say. It was 90 moderately compelling minutes of a TV pilot followed by 45 minutes of dross. Inland Empire was just awful.

Sadly, the new Twin Peaks felt like more Inland Empire. I’m unashamedly one of the ‘coffee and cherry pie’ fans. I wanted to see Coop escape the Lodge and engage in a new mystery in the town, given the wealth of possibilities thrown up by Laura’s diary. I love the idea of the perfect town and it’s seedy underbelly, with the citizens being the focus and the supernatural element kept bubbling under the surface.

I’d rather have had more of Evelyn’s manipulations and Josie’s Hong Kong cadre showing up than talking neuron trees and Dougie. Basically, I wanted a return to ‘the town where no one is innocent’ than a strange 19-hour video experiment.


I agree 100% about "MD", and have never understood the mainstream critical reverence for it or how Lynch fans can call it his best work. I've decided that it's actually his worst feature film. I like some things about it, but feel it should never have been morphed into a film; the pilot version should have been slapped on DVD for fans and left at that. I disagree about "IE", which I love, and I feel it's the more successful sister to "MD".

As far as going back to the coffee and cherry pie, the show was in part a commentary on that kind of yearning. Lynch intentionally gave nobody what they wanted on that front. I wanted original formula Cooper back, but as the series wore on, I started to wonder why that was even important. Coop is split into an idiot angel and a personality-less demon, James is a stuttering dude in a crappy job, Audrey is locked in some sort of hell situation, Ben is just existing, Sarah is possessed by some monster, etc.

It's been said again and again, but a phrase that has aptly described it is "you can't go home again". Nothing is comforting; characters are turned into the opposites of what they were. The most "Peaks"-ish moments, the Ed/Norma stuff, almost felt out of place because things actually turned out well for them. Even though it's kind of a crappy song, I keep thinking about "No Stars" which talks about the idealized past while the present is just "no stars". I can appreciate the show from that perspective, but I still can't give it a pass on some really shoddy plotting and characterization even within the framework it had set up.
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Agent Earle
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:43 am

Somewhere between Gabriel's and IcedOver's elaborations lie my feelings about the show. :)

We're on the same page regarding MD. Am afraid to check out IE and probably won't still for a good number of years.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:38 pm

Of all the different ways we might not have been able to 'go home again' the one we got seems one of the most trite and least interesting of possibilities, both psychologically shallow and thematically disjointed, unable to really connect with the original in a meaningful way nor build anything of substance separately from it. I'm guessing there's a lot of bandwidth out there with people trying to reconcile TPTR and the original with all sorts of ridiculous fan theories that never quite add up and post-hoc rationalisation of it being somehow a work of art and so somehow magically imbued with wonderful properties only the truly initiated can see. But the Emperor is naked, and to pretend otherwise really isn't worth the effort, a spade is a spade, even one sprayed gold.

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:01 pm

KnewItsPa wrote: Of all the different ways we might not have been able to 'go home again' the one we got seems one of the most trite and least interesting of possibilities, both psychologically shallow and thematically disjointed, unable to really connect with the original in a meaningful way nor build anything of substance separately from it. I'm guessing there's a lot of bandwidth out there with people trying to reconcile TPTR and the original with all sorts of ridiculous fan theories that never quite add up and post-hoc rationalisation of it being somehow a work of art and so somehow magically imbued with wonderful properties only the truly initiated can see. But the Emperor is naked, and to pretend otherwise really isn't worth the effort, a spade is a spade, even one sprayed gold.

The very first image of Fire Walk With Me was an axe going though a TV set. Should have left it at that.


Shallow in what way? See, I think of Christopher Nolan's attempts at attacking some of the same topics as in The Return as fairly shallow, but purposefully shallow, because shallow sells more movie tickets. Don't get me wrong, I love all of Nolan's movies, but they don't provoke nearly as much thought in me as The Return did. So I consider Nolan 'shallow' but only in comparison to the truly great art directors. Compared to mainstream directors, his films are relatively deep and thought provoking.

So when you're saying The Return is shallow, I was wondering what might be your reference point? Compared to your average T.V. drama in 2017? Compared to Lynch's other works? Compared to other 'art films'?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:15 pm

Agent Earle wrote:We're on the same page regarding MD. Am afraid to check out IE and probably won't still for a good number of years.


I don't know why you would hold yourself back from watching "IE". You're obviously a fan of his work at least in some capacity. It's a great movie. It doesn't feel like "MD" at all despite covering some similar ground. The camera work is excellent, and "Return" should have been filmed in a similar way, with a camcorder. Even though it's three hours, it feels like an hour and a half because things are constantly morphing, and you're swept up in its rhythms.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:26 pm

KnewItsPa wrote:Of all the different ways we might not have been able to 'go home again' the one we got seems one of the most trite and least interesting of possibilities, both psychologically shallow and thematically disjointed, unable to really connect with the original in a meaningful way nor build anything of substance separately from it.


I mostly agree with that. Like I said, I appreciate that things were done differently, but by and large, the main plot threads that were on the screen, that filled that vacuum, weren't terribly well constructed or interesting. I like a lot of little moments in the Mr. C and Dougie and sheriff's station threads, but feel that the way things panned out overall was just not interesting or satisfying. All of the plot lines could have been better done, and it would have been simple to remedy the problems. We work up to so much with Mr. C, but no payoff with that blank of a character. We go into the "birth of the modern age" with the atomic bomb and ideas of ancient and otherworldy evils, yet the connection between that and anything else going on is never satisfactorily made. It just all could have been better.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby TwistedFate_L4 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:41 pm

I hate that some people have to constantly defend their right to be traditional "cherry pie and coffee" fans as if there's something wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with expecting the continuation of a show you love to have certain elements you've come to expect and there's nothing wrong with not being pleased with the end result. This is really targeted towards the group of people who seem to find joy in poking fun at people for not liking the turns this season took.

I expected The Return to be a brand new beast and I was never one for nostalgia, but even knowing this would be a new frontier- I still ended up disappointed. Very disappointed. Now that time has gone by I look forward to seeing The Return through fresh eyes when I finally get the Blu-ray- I have reached a level of acceptance and I have a strong feeling it will grow on me the second time around as there are truly some fantastic scenes and wonderful directing here. It may take time for some and for some that day will never come.

Different things speak to different people just as the original show did and if The Return didn't speak to you- then that's ok. Preferring the original show doesn't make you "less than" or some nostalgia fueled slave as some people tend to assume...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby mtsi » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:15 am

Perfect


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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LodgeLove » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:09 pm

So, in hindsight, thinking about season three, I’d have to say “what a piece of shit” self-indulgent Lynch to the point that his character even boasts of a strong libido for his age.
I don’t think anyone wanted the Gordon Cole show. They could have edited all the aimless extended shit out and made the season half the running time and still not missed a beat of what it wanted to accomplish and not even at the expense of one syllable of dialogue. What an incredibly wasted once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something with those characters again.
I only hope that at one of his recent signings at least one fan said to Lynch, “you fucked us”
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Gabriel
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:24 pm

LodgeLove wrote:So, in hindsight, thinking about season three, I’d have to say “what a piece of shit” self-indulgent Lynch to the point that his character even boasts of a strong libido for his age.
I don’t think anyone wanted the Gordon Cole show. They could have edited all the aimless extended shit out and made the season half the running time and still not missed a beat of what it wanted to accomplish and not even at the expense of one syllable of dialogue. What an incredibly wasted once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something with those characters again.
I only hope that at one of his recent signings at least one fan said to Lynch, “you fucked us”

It’s more likely they simply wouldn’t show up. Had someone had told me five years ago that I’d select ‘Not Interested’ on Amazon’s personalised recommendations for a new Twin Peaks production, I’d have laughed in their face!

If there was this ‘anti-nostalgia’ theme in the new show, then it worked on me. I’ve changed drastically as a person for a substantial number of reasons this year that far outway the affect of a mere tv show, but that little nagging hope that Twin Peaks, the tv show that led to me working in the media, would come back has been dashed against the jagged rocks of disappointment.

I’m hoping to travel a bit in 2018 and I still want to visit Snoqualmie, but, since TPTR, I actually can’t be bothered to watch tv anymore. I’d rather read a decent book (the works of Dumas père at the moment,) so where Twin Peaks excited me about the potential of the televisual medium, TPTR has cemented my long-growing disillusionment with it, proving that any old toss can now be put on a screen and feted by critics.

I’ll get to April, go away for four-to-five months and actually reassess everything. So in a backhanded way I almost owe Lynch a vote of thanks; his show was so bad that I’ve realised I detest the very industry his previous works tempted me into! Thanks for the midlife crisis, Davey-boy!! ;)

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