Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group

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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Tue May 08, 2018 9:49 am

It would be impossible not to watch, but as negative as this may sound, I would be approaching it from an entirely different direction this time, and basically tear it to pieces as it aired. That is, of course, assuming that it would be like Season 3.

Last night I had an incredibly long and detailed dream about watching "Season 4". It was just great, and I remember feeling like a fool, and thinking, "I can't believe how wrong I was about Season 3, because it was all setup for this!"

In the dream, Mr. C moved to a small house on the outskirts of Twin Peaks, with about an acre of firs and pines on his property. He was charming and gregarious, and fell in with his old friends while making new ones, but at some point, he exposed his malicious nature to Laura while trying to extract some vital information from her. I have no idea why she was alive and living on the same street, but in any case he underestimated her and she got away from him, speeding to the next town where Big Ed now lived. She found him shopping in a supermarket and revealed the truth about Dale Cooper, and Ed abandoned his cart to go get Laura into hiding. He started formulating a complicated plan for dealing with Mr. C and was seen reaching out to trusted allies such as Hawk and the Bookhouse Boys for advice and assistance. Everyone was confused, "What happened to Cooper?"

Meanwhile, Mr. C began looking for something that was revealed to him in a dream, and was attending a neighborhood barbeque where he was playing with some kids. Suddenly, a group of intact dandelion seed heads came floating past, near a wraparound porch at the house where everyone was hanging out. Mr. C immediately realized that he needed to find the sign, and began following the encircling tufts until he was on the porch and they began to break up in the wind and disperse. "Where is it?!" he said to himself angrily, desperately looking around. He looked up finally, and saw some letters and numbers spray painted above his head, on the inside of the covered porch. "That's it!"

There was a hell of a lot more. I watched several episodes and it felt great to see Twin Peaks back in gear.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Fri May 11, 2018 4:34 am

No idea why I just thought of it, but my goodness that Green Glove thing was just plain inept.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Fri May 11, 2018 5:30 am

KnewItsPa wrote:No idea why I just thought of it, but my goodness that Green Glove thing was just plain inept.


I think that is one case where it is actually fair to say "you just don't get it". The show is making a point about how there are no easy solutions or quick fixes in life. You have to dig yourself out of the shit. It takes work, it can be extremely scary and at some points you have to accept that you cannot have it all/you have to let go of that which isn't viable.

Nadine cannot cling onto Ed and be happy. Dale cannot save Laura Palmer/Annie/Carolyn and beat down the parts of himself he's not comfortable with (Mr.C) through trickery, hubris, green gloved sidekicks and black magic and keep himself intact. He has to do the work and accept that things have consequences.

Freddy's showdown with BoB is a satire of deus ex machina storytelling. It is simply too easy for our protagonist - and it is a hollow victory. Wrong hero (Freddy) and wrong villiain (BoB). This season was always about Dale and his shadow.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Agent Earle » Fri May 11, 2018 6:24 am

You're darn tootin'. We folks who didn't like the new season simply didn't get it, those of ya folks that liked it, on the other hand, did. It's that simple.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Fri May 11, 2018 9:02 am

Agent Earle wrote:You're darn tootin'. We folks who didn't like the new season simply didn't get it, those of ya folks that liked it, on the other hand, did. It's that simple.


My reaction’s been more straightforward: last weekend, I took my complete Twin Peaks Blu-Ray box set, my David Lynch movie Blu-ray set, the Secret History, Secret Diary and My Life, My Tapes books and Crazy Clown Time CD to my local charity shop.

The new show ended my decades-long affection for David Lynch’s work, so there was no point in leaving everything gathering dust. I’m unlikely to want to watch, read or listen any of them again: the original Twin Peaks is tainted by the new show and I can’t look at any of the films the same way again. If there’s more Twin Peaks released, I won’t bother to watch it. Once you’re done, I think you’re done for good and it’s better to make the break. Still it was mostly fun while it lasted.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Fri May 11, 2018 9:43 am

eyeboogers wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:No idea why I just thought of it, but my goodness that Green Glove thing was just plain inept.


I think that is one case where it is actually fair to say "you just don't get it".

How ironic it is that it's you who just don't get it. Lynch and Frost failed to deliver a satisfying arc for BOB and his defeat. And they didn't care. They wanted to tell a Dougie story, they don't give a shit about BOB or Cooper. The Green Glove of Utter Disappointment is the best they could drag their asses to, it's the best Twin Peaks story they can tell. And it's utter shit.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Fri May 11, 2018 10:37 am

Gabriel wrote:My reaction’s been more straightforward: last weekend, I took my complete Twin Peaks Blu-Ray box set, my David Lynch movie Blu-ray set, the Secret History, Secret Diary and My Life, My Tapes books and Crazy Clown Time CD to my local charity shop.

The new show ended my decades-long affection for David Lynch’s work, so there was no point in leaving everything gathering dust. I’m unlikely to want to watch, read or listen any of them again: the original Twin Peaks is tainted by the new show and I can’t look at any of the films the same way again. If there’s more Twin Peaks released, I won’t bother to watch it. Once you’re done, I think you’re done for good and it’s better to make the break. Still it was mostly fun while it lasted.


That might be the most extreme reaction I've heard to disappointment over a work. Was it so bad to you that you had to give away even stuff from the past? I'm over 50 percent disappointed with the show, but that doesn't affect my affection for past works. Did you just donate it, then, without compensation?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Fri May 11, 2018 11:18 am

Kilmoore wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:No idea why I just thought of it, but my goodness that Green Glove thing was just plain inept.


I think that is one case where it is actually fair to say "you just don't get it".

How ironic it is that it's you who just don't get it. Lynch and Frost failed to deliver a satisfying arc for BOB and his defeat. And they didn't care. They wanted to tell a Dougie story, they don't give a shit about BOB or Cooper. The Green Glove of Utter Disappointment is the best they could drag their asses to, it's the best Twin Peaks story they can tell. And it's utter shit.


I don't understand why you refuse to discuss the material on the basis of what's there. You're all talking in general terms of finality and betrayel. When I was throwing about the not getting it stick it was about a specific element of the show that was being criticised. Mark Frost has confirmed that they were playing around with deus ex machina, so clearly it wasn't because they couldn't come up with anything else. What part of what I wrote about the themes and execution do you disagree with?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Fri May 11, 2018 11:33 am

A thought just struck me. I had an idea of doing a fan edit of S3, cutting out all useless bits, until the final episodes made it clear it's all useless. But since it was all a fraud just get a budget to do the stories they wanted to do by painting a Twin Peaks logo on it, maybe the solution isn't trying to make it Twin Peaks, but to remove all Twin Peaks from it. I do wonder if would be possible to make a passable Dougie-story just be editing? It's a bit hard since they pretended it was supposed to be Cooper, and thus tied the beginning and the ending to it, but maybe. It would be an interesting experiment, at least.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Gabriel » Fri May 11, 2018 12:51 pm

IcedOver wrote:That might be the most extreme reaction I've heard to disappointment over a work. Was it so bad to you that you had to give away even stuff from the past? I'm over 50 percent disappointed with the show, but that doesn't affect my affection for past works. Did you just donate it, then, without compensation?


Yeah, although it doesn’t feel ‘extreme’ because ‘extreme’ implies passion to me. I don’t feel any passion in what I did. Y’know, I used to love David Lynch’s work, but I feel his work diverged from where I was going with my life as far back as after FWWM. I liked, but didn’t love, Lost Highway, I completely adored The Straight Story and would buy it on Blu-ray in a heartbeat if they released it in the UK, but I’ve disliked everything since. Two hours of Mulholland Dr, eighteen hours of Twin Peaks: The Return and three of Inland Empire is an awful lot of ‘giving someone a chance.’ That’s about eight ‘normal’ length movies’ worth of my time.

I donated everything to my local charity shop in the hope that someone might give money to a good cause and might love the films and shows as much as I once did. But I’m finished, I guess. I posted for eleven years on Dugpa, 28 as fan; but things come to an end and, a year after TPTR profoundly disappointed me, I realised that while I miss chatting with people here I’m burnt out of saying anything more. There are some interesting videos critical of the new show on a YouTube, but the levels of abuse hurled at anyone who says the show wasn’t a masterpiece are staggering and I don’t want to be a part of those sorts of arguments. I also don’t want to rain on people’s bonfire if they have a burning passion for it.

I slung some mud around here in my time, but it was mostly fun. I think it’s like when any ‘relationship’ ends: you either cling on and stay depressed or you put things away and move on.

So, while I’ve cleared off a few times before, I’ve really called an end to things this time. If the admins would like to close my account at this point, I’m cool with that.

It’s been an interesting, bumpy ride, but hang tight everyone. I’m heading off to get myself some damn fune coffee and some cherry pie!

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face;
the rains fall soft upon your fields
Until we meet again...

xx
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Audrey Horne » Fri May 11, 2018 9:07 pm

I get it... I can’t look at any of my stuff. And it was fine for me before with hating most of the second season because of knowing all the behind the scenes situations that led to Lynch and Forst’s Vision getting away from them. But with the two of them so methodically planning this for years for The Return... it’s like a breakup with someone where you realize eh, we’re just different types of people.

But funny, my mother called me a few days ago excited... “I’m finally watching Twin Peaks!” So many thrilled questions... she just finished the first season, and she’s me twenty eight years ago all over again. But also ... without any prompting... she was so intrigued with the knowledge this just came back last year. She said how wonderful it must be and exciting to revisit a small town life with the same actors twenty five years later. I told her I can’t say anything, but we’ll talk. I think I must really be related to her because her favorite characters are Cooper and Audrey.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Fri May 11, 2018 9:41 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:She said how wonderful it must be and exciting to revisit a small town life with the same actors twenty five years later. I told her I can’t say anything, but we’ll talk.

It baffles me that Lynch and Frost were (choose all that apply):

01) Unaware of how much this is woven into the fabric of our collective understanding of Twin Peaks
02) Unaffected by how his much this would have meant to everyone
03) Unwilling to give even a taste of this to everyone including the characters themselves*

*Lynch has talked about how he is in love with the world of Twin Peaks and often wonders what its inhabitants are up to. He seems not to have given a real shit about them when it mattered the most.

Audrey Horne wrote:I think I must really be related to her because her favorite characters are Cooper and Audrey.

Just tell her, "Well on the bright side of things, at least they each got 30 minutes of screen time. It could always be worse!"
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby WhiteLodge90 » Sun May 13, 2018 1:20 pm

All ready posted this on it's own thread but in case anyone missed it...

I've watched the new season twice now. Technically three times as I watched each episode twice after it aired throughout the week. Then again this fall with my girlfriend. I''ve waited to compose my thoughts - Unsure of how to best form them without seeming like I disliked the show or being too whiney. However I feel like there's a few things I'd like to get off my chest.

Did I like Season 3? The short answer is yes. Did I like it just because it was simply new Twin Peaks and Lynch could've just had Cooper staring blankly in the red room with "The Dance of a Dream Man" and strobe lights flickering in the background for 18 episodes and I probably would've liked it still? That's also possible... But did it compare to season 1 or the beginning half & last few episodes of season 2? In my humble opinion not even close.

Let me preface with some obvious things that were out of Lynch & Frosts control. The deaths of Major Briggs, Bob, Jefferies, Pete & the declining health's of The Log Lady & Albert really put them in a bind. They were all crucial characters to the show and I commend Lynch for finding a way to use them in anyway he possibly could. I also highly commend Catherine Coulson & Miguel Ferrer for performing with their all while obviously being very sick. It was truly inspiring to witness. However there's no denying he had to overcome some tough odds with those tragic losses.
Two of the biggest losses for the show were completely avoidable if the actors weren't either crazy (Michael J Anderson) or for whatever reason (Ontekean) Had for not being on the show after agreeing to at first. I think out of all the characters not in the new show who had the opportunity to be so because they were alive - These were the biggest holes of the show. It really upset me that we didn't get Harry Truman. Look I'm not going to pretend Ontekean was a world class actor or that his character was very interesting but it was something about him that made him the backbone of the show. The connection to Cooper, the every-man personality that so much represented what the town of Twin Peaks stood for. These all felt lacking without his presence. And again - Robert Forster did a fine job as a replacement to Truman but it sort of felt like when the lead singer leaves the band and they try and pass him off with another front man. Sure the guy's probably talented. But he's not going to give you that feeling you had with the original. It's a true shame they couldn't work something out with Michael. As far as the other Michael... Shame on him for ruining the experience for the fans. Hopefully some day he realizes the error of his ways (But I doubt it).

As far as the characters they did have on from the original, I'd say 95% of them were either grossly mismanaged or criminally underused. The only exceptions were probably Hawk (Who was a solid MVP candidate for the 3rd season) & maybe Gordon Cole who... well we know who he is.

Starting off with the mismanaged category - The Horne brothers. I'll start off easy here. Jerry Horne - He was always a bit of a comedic sidekick but he also had a menacing brilliance to him as well. I didn't get that at all this time. Instead all I saw was a bumbling cartoon character. A strong reoccurring theme for a lot of the OG characters in this incarnation. His big ending payoff? That he somehow ran over multiple state lines to witness the exploding Richard Horne. Really? That whole sequence of him getting lost in the woods lead to...? What? Nothing? Please someone tell me I missed something there?....
Now onto Ben Horne. Richard Beymer did just a fantastic job. I thought he was one of the other MVP's of the new show just in terms of pure acting ability and delivery. However like most of the Twin Peaks characters and sets his scenes felt very impersonal to me. All set in one room that gave me no vibes of the Great Northern. All of his scenes were oddly inter-spliced throughout the episodes in a random order and the only time he interacted with someone is when they came to visit him in his office. No establishing shots of the hotel lobby? Or him interacting with other characters around town? That's a huge complaint for me in general about the show. We hardly ever saw other characters in town interacting with each other in multiple locations or multiple side story lines. It felt very much so like Lynch cast too many people who either wanted to work with him badly or vice versa and so in consequence him and Frost had no time for real character driven storytelling.
I also felt like Ben was a completely different person. I kind of believe this is on Beymer as it's been well documented about his disapproval of Ben's behavior since his refusal to appear in FWWM. Did he completely own his lines? Yes he did. I give him tons of credit for that. But it didn't seem like Ben to me short of the glasses and the office desk.

Next on the list Dr. Jacoby. (Or Dr. Amp) I just didn't understand or enjoy this story line. The only real substance it offered was helping Nadine let go of Big Ed in order for him to finally get the love of his life. Was that it? Was this simply Mark Frost trying to push his own agenda onto the character? I honestly don't know but the repetitiveness of it felt silly and tiresome to me. I feel in large part this character lost his charm after the Laura Palmer case. There was a glimmer of potential with him working with Sarah Palmer in the series final of season 2. I feel maybe they could've used him more in that sense?
Andy & Lucy. (Mostly Lucy) I'll keep this one short. I thought they pushed the dumbness of these two a bit too much this season especially with the whole cell phones bit. And to be honest I think what made some of the comedy not work was the lack of the comedic jazz music that accompanied them throughout the shows original run (But I'll talk more about that later)

Bobby and Shelly - Let's get the first bit out of the way. I thought Dana did a very good job with his drastic character change here. I would've liked a little bit more backstory on his and Shelly's downfall or some oh you know character development between the two but I do wish we could've seen more with these two. With Shelly I liked the idea of her relationship with Becky but with it going multiple episodes at certain times without interaction with them I didn't really find a solid chance to connect with that story line. However I have a bigger bone to pick with her random fling with Red that was literally a wink in the first episode and a kiss outside the Double R. Really? That's it? She's dating a dangerous drug kingpin who may or may not be connected to the black lodge and you couldn't find some way to show more of that relationship? I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering we didn't get any character depth this season. Unless you count watching Dougie Learn how to draw arrows for five minutes to boring new age music.

Now onto the criminally underused...
The biggest and most obvious for me would be Audrey. As one of the few actors who was in every episode of the original you'd think a little more time would be spent on her. I'll admit I was infuriated with the direction of her character at first until I started to realize "The owls are not what they seem" so to speak. It all culminated with a top 5 moment of the new season in the Audrey's Dance throwback. Then all of the sudden a flash of white and there she is in a super bright room looking horrified with two episodes to go. "All right!" I foolishly thought.. I couldn't wait to see what was REALLY going on with Audrey. And just like most of this new season Lynch decided to take what was a very intriguing and potentially memorable moment and turn it into one of those distant dreams you try your hardest to piece together but in the end realize your brain is just super hazy. I felt ripped off by this one.

James Hurley - I know most people hated James and I admit the guy was never one of my favorites either but to put him in that first episode then not again till the very end pretty much completely created a sense of forgetfulness and also left the new development of his character to be lacking. No mention of him and Donna? They couldn't seriously fit in ONE scene with him and Big Ed? How about the Bookhouse Boys?! Did they just evaporate with the absences of Harry & Coop?? You don't have to like James to know his character felt very randomly placed with little explanation.

Big Ed/Nadine/Norma - I'm combing all of these three for time purposes and because their story lines largely intertwined. For the first two we don't see either of them until well into the back half of the season. Unless you count those stupid little cameos of Nadine smiling to Dr. Amps rants that they tried to pass off as new footage and not just different angles of the first one. Big Ed had no interactions with his nephew?! Even though he always had his back in the original and James clearly needed it now... No scenes of him and Nadine except for the big climatic break up. No build up of that relationship and where it was for the last 25 years??
I feel like for Norma at least she got a nice arch with the Double R and expansion. But I got pretty sick of her sitting in that booth working on papers for a few episodes. Couldn't she leave the restaurant and Oh I don't know visit another part of town? Couldn't any of these characters?
The One Armed Man/Phillip Gerard. We got to see plenty of one of these two. I took it as purified version of the one armed man. But what happened to Gerard?? Was he still out there?? Did he die? I was very confused by this part. I also feel like the way his character appeared with the CGI really lacked the sense of creepiness I feel like could've been attained. I think Al did an admirable job filling in for Anderson as Coops "spirit guide" I just don't love those other points I listed about his character.

And finally the Palmer's. I get that Leland was dead but with the lack of the original Red Room inhabitants in this new incarnation you're telling me you couldn't have sneaked him in a few more times?? He's too good of an actor to be used so little. As far as Laura I get her lack of use all though I wish we could've seen more for selfish reasons... Sarah was another character I felt teased by. A great intro to where her character was at this season but very little answers to what was going on in that house. We know she's the little girl in New Mexico but what about all that weird time looping in her living room? Or what about that creepy noise Hawk heard when he went to check up on her? Nothing?? I guess not...
Finally the characters who weren't in it at all... Most characters I feel someone could have a legit argument as to why they weren't asked back. But a few I think really should've been used if even for a cameo are - Annie, Chet Desmond & Josie. All three had very ambiguous endings and I would've really loved to see even just ONE of them make a surprise cameo... Or at least a mention to the advancement of their story line. Annie in particular I felt completely ripped off on.

Going back to the music... When I heard Angelo was going to be back I breathed a heavy sigh of relief. He essentially is Twin Peaks in my eyes. But what I saw through 18 episodes was very little quintessential TP music. There were moments that were just painfully drawn out this season which could have greatly benefited from a little bit of that TP jazz that Angelo used so well in the original. I don't know if this was a style choice by Lynch to leave out the music being used as much or if it's deeper than that but the music on this show was like a main character to me and I thought it was lacking largely. I didn't like Johnny jewel's Windswept and even more so wasn't a fan of how much time was taken up in Vegas. (But I'm not going to talk about that in fact I'm not going to talk about Vegas at all. I'm going to leave it out of it)

In closing this isn't a full dissertation on the entire series because I wanted to save your eyes from reading what could've been an essay if I had the time and energy to do so. I just wanted to focus on what I felt made Twin Peaks so special originally and that's the characters. And I felt betrayed in that aspect as I've listed above.

Hope you all take the time to read this and know I still enjoyed the 3rd season but I have to tell it like it is in my heart and soul.

Cheers!
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Mon May 14, 2018 10:52 am

eyeboogers wrote:Freddy's showdown with BoB is a satire of deus ex machina storytelling. It is simply too easy for our protagonist - and it is a hollow victory. Wrong hero (Freddy) and wrong villiain (BoB). This season was always about Dale and his shadow.


This is debatable. To me it's yes and no.

I think Lynch - who came up with Freddie and the green glove himself - did it just because he wanted to. He thought it was a nifty idea so he made it happen. Deus ex machina do exist in the world of Twin Peaks. And I think he wants Freddie and the battle with BOB sequence to be taken in earnest, not as satire. He also wants us to know there is no easy way out. Even if Freddie and co. vanquish BOB, it's Cooper's own choices and pride - the self - which doom him.

Like most of Twin Peaks it has two levels: Earnest and subversive, existing as one at the same time. For example, Sarah's hysteria in the pilot goes from sad to funny to sad and back again. I think we're absolutely meant to take Freddie at face value. We're also meant to know shortly thereafter that it won't be so simple, because humans (like Cooper) are still making poor choices and not able to accept the past.

Incidentally: BOB's defeat was extremely satisfying for me.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Disappointed Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby eyeboogers » Mon May 14, 2018 12:01 pm

N. Needleman wrote:
eyeboogers wrote:This is debatable. To me it's yes and no.


I don't see how it's debatable since the writers have told us that this was their intention. It is also the thematic basis for everything that happens in the rest of episode 17 and 18.

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