Theories & Speculation

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IcedOver
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby IcedOver » Wed May 30, 2018 12:12 am

For me, I reject any and all ideas that any part of the narrative or characters are part of a literal nighttime dream. Any ideas like that discount so much of the show, both iterations.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed May 30, 2018 5:05 am

IcedOver wrote:For me, I reject any and all ideas that any part of the narrative or characters are part of a literal nighttime dream. Any ideas like that discount so much of the show, both iterations.


Do you feel the same way about the classic film The Wizard of Oz? Personally, as a big childhood fan of the Baum books, I’m very ambivalent about that iconic film ending, which seems to choke off the world of the succeeding adventures...but that’s because I’m invested in the property. Whereas in a standalone work like Mulholland Drive (which I know you dislike), I think the fact that a majority of the film is a dream is a strength — we learn far more about the character of Diane than we would through any traditional “real world” story structure, and we are meant to treat the first portion of the film as VERY real, since we are living in Diane’s subjective reality throughout.

In the case of TP, I’m mixed. I love DKL’s dream-narratives; but having lived with the original show for many years, I would be uneasy with that original narrative being (as you say) discounted. I also just don’t see enough evidence that the Vegas storyline (for instance) is flat-out a dreamscape or Lodge space (in the way that the Odessaverse might be). However, I wholeheartedly embrace the idea LateReg advances, that the show represents an evolution in DKL’s storytelling and overall takes place in a space somehow suspended between reality, dreams, overlapping manifestations of various characters’ subconsciousnes, otherworldly influences, and perhaps even incursions by the nature of the filmed work itself (a theme DKL has been increasingly interested in exploring in MD and particularly INLAND EMPIRE), all bleeding over into each other. Everything (or most things) really happen, but the characters’ psyches are somehow shaping the reality around them — a more complex version of the way the Lodge spirits have always been simultaneously “real” in a mythological sense and representations of the characters’ psychological projections.
IcedOver
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby IcedOver » Wed May 30, 2018 7:46 am

^I don't think that questioning the concrete "reality" of what you're watching is a fruitful pursuit, not even in something that says it's a dream (and anything that says it's a literal sleep dream is a cop out or at least a throwaway, as is "Oz"). "Mulholland" seems to lend itself to this, which is one reason I have serious issues with it and feel it was lazily capped. Unreality and reality are the same thing in a work of fiction; separating one from the other to try to "explain" what you're watching is pointless. I truly don't believe Lynch is asking us to tie up this show as being in a literal dream (although considering that he copied many elements from previous works, who knows?). Even if someone "needs" to say something is a dream to satisfy themselves, why does the world of Part 18 need to be "reality"? Perhaps that is a "dream" and the previous is "reality".

I can't say I'm familiar with the Upanishads outside the referenced quote, but it doesn't mean a literal dream or dreamer. Asking "Who is the dreamer?" is not what the quote is requiring us to do. "The dreamer" isn't a person to be named but a base idea of a "dreamer", same as the spider referenced the line before. We don't ask which spider among the billions on the planet is doing the weaving. We are "like" them, but we are not actually dreaming literally. People have taken this too literally and run with it.
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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Wed May 30, 2018 10:43 am

IcedOver wrote:^I don't think that questioning the concrete "reality" of what you're watching is a fruitful pursuit, not even in something that says it's a dream (and anything that says it's a literal sleep dream is a cop out or at least a throwaway, as is "Oz"). "Mulholland" seems to lend itself to this, which is one reason I have serious issues with it and feel it was lazily capped. Unreality and reality are the same thing in a work of fiction; separating one from the other to try to "explain" what you're watching is pointless. I truly don't believe Lynch is asking us to tie up this show as being in a literal dream (although considering that he copied many elements from previous works, who knows?). Even if someone "needs" to say something is a dream to satisfy themselves, why does the world of Part 18 need to be "reality"? Perhaps that is a "dream" and the previous is "reality".

I can't say I'm familiar with the Upanishads outside the referenced quote, but it doesn't mean a literal dream or dreamer. Asking "Who is the dreamer?" is not what the quote is requiring us to do. "The dreamer" isn't a person to be named but a base idea of a "dreamer", same as the spider referenced the line before. We don't ask which spider among the billions on the planet is doing the weaving. We are "like" them, but we are not actually dreaming literally. People have taken this too literally and run with it.


I would have to disagree on this point. Although in terms of the sub-themes of The Return ( abuse, aging, death etc.) it probably doesn't matter whether what we're seeing is a 'dream' or 'real', my take is that one of the major themes of The Return itself, or at least one of the objectives, is to get the viewer to think about exactly what constitutes 'reality' and to go along with that question, what constitutes our 'identity'. Pretty much from the beginning and all the way to the final scene, we're led to question everything, even to the extent that some interpretations could lead one to thinking the whole 18 hours is a dream/fantasy of a Lodge-trapped Cooper.

IMHO, this is not a case of trying to undo the death of a Patrick Ewing: This is closer to the thought-provoking questioning of reality as seen in the film 'Waking Life' (although 'Waking Life' definitively answers what type of reality the main character is in at the end, whereas The Return leaves it up to interpretation): what state is the protagonist in? Is this a waking reality, a delusional reality (such as Audrey), a drug induced reality (Jerry Horne), a fantasy/daydream reality (Ed at the RR) a dream reality, another dimension/parallel universe reality, just another room in the Lodge constructed to look like the real world, etc?

For example, I've always assumed the movie 'Heathers' is a complete fantasy of the main character Veronica Sawyer, as she writes in her diary. But it's up to the interpretation of the viewer and I like it better that it's left ambiguous. In fact, so ambiguous I may be the only one with that interpretation :-). But I can make a strong case that everything we see in Heathers that is fantastical represents the fantasy of the main character.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed May 30, 2018 2:05 pm

We all live in a subjective reality of our own perception; that’s a theme that DKL has been exploring since he started his filmmaking career, and one of the main things that has always drawn me to his work. I agree that “it was all a dream” endings tend to often be pat copouts that devalue or negate the overall work; but DKL’s approach is much more nuanced than that. It seems to me very limiting to say, as a blanket rule, that fictional works can only contain one level of reality since they are already untrue. For me, it’s all about the execution and how interesting the story/themes/characters are. Compelling stories can be totally externally-focused, totally internally-focused, or some mix. For me personally, the most compelling stories often tend to be those that are focused on a character’s inward life and disconnection from reality.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Wed May 30, 2018 2:29 pm

I agree with IcedOver that I don't believe the question is meant to be answered literally. But I also wholeheartedly agree with MT and Reindeer, who have essentially combined to outline my thinking on what we're seeing. In essence, The Return is a metaphysical work. It's all about questioning reality, asking how we can ever be sure, diving into subjective reality. The real and the lodges seem to be spilling over into one another, Coop may have never left the lodge, Audrey is not sure what she's seeing and neither are we, our own experience interprets the events, etc. Another bottomless, intertwining aspect of The Return. It asks: If we can't be sure, then how can we be sure?

On a side note that is barely related (I think), remember all the people who would ask why no one notices that Dougie isn't functioning? To me, that was easily the most annoying aspect of recaps and whatnot. Like, why was The Return (or anything for that matter) expected to adhere to strict reality? I had said before that it's almost like questioning why Ron Burgundy is such an exaggerated ass in Anchorman. Not every film needs to adhere to the same version of reality/realism. Like I said, only barely related, but good Lord did it annoy me to hear so many people trying to make the show adhere to an established version of dramatic realism...especially when it was clearly, at least in part, a comedy.
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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:49 am

So here's my basic theory on what happened in Ep. 2, 17 and 18. Would love to get feedback from others:

1. Laura whispers in Cooper's ear that he can save her by going back in time and saving her younger self from being murdered. Presumably she tells him she was never meant to die, but to confront and defeat Judy.
2. This causes her to be ripped out of the Lodge because her whispering this secret gives him the knowledge that will inevitably lead to her never having taken the Owl Ring and died with it on and thus never being in the Lodge to begin with.
3. However, when Cooper saves Laura, the Fireman intervenes and 'raptures' Laura up the White Lodge (they are near the pool where Andy was raptured). The Fireman than wipes Laura's memories and places her presumably in Odessa, TX. I believe the Fireman does this to hide Laura from Sarah/Judy.
5. However, the Fireman realizes at some point Judy has located Laura/Carrie and she is no longer safe. So he sends Cooper on a mission disguised as someone named Richard to rescue Laura from Judy's clutches once again and bring her back to Twin Peaks for a final confrontation.
6. Unfortunately, Sarah has cleared out, leaving the house occupied by the Tremonds, where Sarah/Judy has fled to is anyone's guess. Another timeline, dimension, reality?

Ok, it's not much of a theory, but it's the best I could come up with :-)
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krishnanspace
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:01 am

mtwentz wrote:So here's my basic theory on what happened in Ep. 2, 17 and 18. Would love to get feedback from others:

1. Laura whispers in Cooper's ear that he can save her by going back in time and saving her younger self from being murdered. Presumably she tells him she was never meant to die, but to confront and defeat Judy.
2. This causes her to be ripped out of the Lodge because her whispering this secret gives him the knowledge that will inevitably lead to her never having taken the Owl Ring and died with it on and thus never being in the Lodge to begin with.
3. However, when Cooper saves Laura, the Fireman intervenes and 'raptures' Laura up the White Lodge (they are near the pool where Andy was raptured). The Fireman than wipes Laura's memories and places her presumably in Odessa, TX. I believe the Fireman does this to hide Laura from Sarah/Judy.
5. However, the Fireman realizes at some point Judy has located Laura/Carrie and she is no longer safe. So he sends Cooper on a mission disguised as someone named Richard to rescue Laura from Judy's clutches once again and bring her back to Twin Peaks for a final confrontation.
6. Unfortunately, Sarah has cleared out, leaving the house occupied by the Tremonds, where Sarah/Judy has fled to is anyone's guess. Another timeline, dimension, reality?

Ok, it's not much of a theory, but it's the best I could come up with :-)

Wow!Damn good interpretation. One point I would love to make is that, whatever Laura whispered in Coop's ear was not something nice.Thats why Coop is shocked.Whatever has said happens in the end And hence the show ends with the same whisper scene.Anyway thats what I think happened.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby bosguy1981 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:43 am

I wonder if the reason Cooper goes back and leads Laura Palmer out of the woods is not to change the past in order to save Laura from her pain and her death that night at the hands of Leland, but instead to save Diane from eventually being raped/traumatized/tulpa-fied by Cooper/Mr. C.

Laura was already suffering for many years at the hands of BOB and Leland, and Cooper's intervention on 2/23/89 doesn't do anything to minimize or extinguish that pain and trauma. But if Laura never dies, maybe Cooper never goes to the Red Room at all, and therefore the doppelganger never comes out, and never attacks Diane. (Or does Mark Frost's Final Dossier indicate that Cooper DOES go to the Lodge and go missing, even in the timeline in which Laura goes missing? -- I can't remember, and really just focus on the series and not the books).

Anyway, in Part 17, just after Bob is defeated, Cooper freezes when he looks at Naido, has a realization, and then we see his face superimposed over the rest of the scene. Shortly after this, Naido becomes Diane, etc. I guess I don't have a specific theory here but it just seems to me that maybe it's really more about doing this for Diane's well-being (and for Cooper to correct the past and his own doppelganger's actions of violence against Diane), and not about preventing Laura from being hurt by BOB/Leland.
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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:11 am

krishnanspace wrote:
mtwentz wrote:So here's my basic theory on what happened in Ep. 2, 17 and 18. Would love to get feedback from others:

1. Laura whispers in Cooper's ear that he can save her by going back in time and saving her younger self from being murdered. Presumably she tells him she was never meant to die, but to confront and defeat Judy.
2. This causes her to be ripped out of the Lodge because her whispering this secret gives him the knowledge that will inevitably lead to her never having taken the Owl Ring and died with it on and thus never being in the Lodge to begin with.
3. However, when Cooper saves Laura, the Fireman intervenes and 'raptures' Laura up the White Lodge (they are near the pool where Andy was raptured). The Fireman than wipes Laura's memories and places her presumably in Odessa, TX. I believe the Fireman does this to hide Laura from Sarah/Judy.
5. However, the Fireman realizes at some point Judy has located Laura/Carrie and she is no longer safe. So he sends Cooper on a mission disguised as someone named Richard to rescue Laura from Judy's clutches once again and bring her back to Twin Peaks for a final confrontation.
6. Unfortunately, Sarah has cleared out, leaving the house occupied by the Tremonds, where Sarah/Judy has fled to is anyone's guess. Another timeline, dimension, reality?

Ok, it's not much of a theory, but it's the best I could come up with :-)

Wow!Damn good interpretation. One point I would love to make is that, whatever Laura whispered in Coop's ear was not something nice.Thats why Coop is shocked.Whatever has said happens in the end And hence the show ends with the same whisper scene.Anyway thats what I think happened.


Just a wild guess, but maybe Laura tells Cooper that Judy is in her mother, and what will happen if her (Laura's death) is not reversed.
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LateReg
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:02 am

bosguy1981 wrote:I wonder if the reason Cooper goes back and leads Laura Palmer out of the woods is not to change the past in order to save Laura from her pain and her death that night at the hands of Leland, but instead to save Diane from eventually being raped/traumatized/tulpa-fied by Cooper/Mr. C.

Laura was already suffering for many years at the hands of BOB and Leland, and Cooper's intervention on 2/23/89 doesn't do anything to minimize or extinguish that pain and trauma. But if Laura never dies, maybe Cooper never goes to the Red Room at all, and therefore the doppelganger never comes out, and never attacks Diane. (Or does Mark Frost's Final Dossier indicate that Cooper DOES go to the Lodge and go missing, even in the timeline in which Laura goes missing? -- I can't remember, and really just focus on the series and not the books).

Anyway, in Part 17, just after Bob is defeated, Cooper freezes when he looks at Naido, has a realization, and then we see his face superimposed over the rest of the scene. Shortly after this, Naido becomes Diane, etc. I guess I don't have a specific theory here but it just seems to me that maybe it's really more about doing this for Diane's well-being (and for Cooper to correct the past and his own doppelganger's actions of violence against Diane), and not about preventing Laura from being hurt by BOB/Leland.


I like this a lot.

I also like what MT said, as well.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:02 pm

Small speculation, just for fun.

Laura is pulled away from the Black Lodge.
Laura is pulled away from Cooper’s hands in 1989.
Scream is the same.

What would it change if the two events happen at the very same time ? That would be the center point of the infinite symbol from Jeffrey’s teapot.
One very small thing that could corroborate this concept is Desmond/Gordon communication style; “is it future or is it past?” is missing something, exactly as Gordon was missing “the uncle”: the present.




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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:21 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:Small speculation, just for fun.

Laura is pulled away from the Black Lodge.
Laura is pulled away from Cooper’s hands in 1989.
Scream is the same.

What would it change if the two events happen at the very same time ? That would be the center point of the infinite symbol from Jeffrey’s teapot.
One very small thing that could corroborate this concept is Desmond/Gordon communication style; “is it future or is it past?” is missing something, exactly as Gordon was missing “the uncle”: the present.
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Very possible but I think Laura being ripped away in 1989 and in the Lodge being synchronous would be more consistent with Judy or some other force ripping her away.

With my theory that I've been toying with and stated above, Cooper going back in the past and saving her should not cause her to suddenly disappear. That is why I concluded that under my theory that Laura was taken by the Fireman and moved away from Twin Peaks for her protection.

Of course, her working as Carrie Paige at Judy's Diner kind of pokes some holes into my theory and suggests it is Judy who took her away in the first place. So the only way my theory works is if Judy has only recently caught up with Laura/Carrie and Cooper came and rescued Carrie before Judy could annihilate her.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:30 pm

mtwentz wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:Small speculation, just for fun.

Laura is pulled away from the Black Lodge.
Laura is pulled away from Cooper’s hands in 1989.
Scream is the same.

What would it change if the two events happen at the very same time ? That would be the center point of the infinite symbol from Jeffrey’s teapot.
One very small thing that could corroborate this concept is Desmond/Gordon communication style; “is it future or is it past?” is missing something, exactly as Gordon was missing “the uncle”: the present.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very possible but I think Laura being ripped away in 1989 and in the Lodge being synchronous would be more consistent with Judy or some other force ripping her away.

With my theory that I've been toying with and stated above, Cooper going back in the past and saving her should not cause her to suddenly disappear. That is why I concluded that under my theory that Laura was taken by the Fireman and moved away from Twin Peaks for her protection.

Of course, her working as Carrie Paige at Judy's Diner kind of pokes some holes into my theory and suggests it is Judy who took her away in the first place. So the only way my theory works is if Judy has only recently caught up with Laura/Carrie and Cooper came and rescued Carrie before Judy could annihilate her.


I am not really sure. A recurring theme of P18 is “somewhere else”. Coop wakes up somewhere else.
He goes at Judy’s and he doesn’t find Laura there. She’s somewhere else.
Then he goes at Laura’s home, and she’s not there technically speaking; she has to be driven somewhere else.
Then they go at Sarah’s house, but she’s not there. She’s somewhere else.
Then Laura/Carrie hears her mom calling her, clearly from somewhere else (and from a different time/timeline/universe/movie).

In addition, if the Fireman can rip someone from the Black Lodge like that, why didn’t he do it before?


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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:00 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
I am not really sure. A recurring theme of P18 is “somewhere else”. Coop wakes up somewhere else.
He goes at Judy’s and he doesn’t find Laura there. She’s somewhere else.
Then he goes at Laura’s home, and she’s not there technically speaking; she has to be driven somewhere else.
Then they go at Sarah’s house, but she’s not there. She’s somewhere else.
Then Laura/Carrie hears her mom calling her, clearly from somewhere else (and from a different time/timeline/universe/movie).

In addition, if the Fireman can rip someone from the Black Lodge like that, why didn’t he do it before?


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To clarify, I don't think The Fireman ripped her from the Lodge, but she was ripped away by the 'forces of time' so to speak. She whispered to Coop the info that would lead to him rescuing her, which would lead to her never having entered The Lodge in the first place.

However, I do speculate that the Fireman ripped Laura away from Cooper's hands in 1989 and then placed her in Odessa.
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