Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

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Normonaut
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Normonaut » Wed May 24, 2017 10:19 pm

Brunohbt wrote:Hey, I'm gonna repost a theory I had written back at the subreddit.
As I rewatched ep. 3 yesterday, I think it feels even more far fetched but, who knows, maybe something might come out of that.
---snip---

I like this theory, and it's not THAT far fetched. Why Hawk was suddenly out in the woods always bothered me. There was no pay-off to it. He went there, saw red curtains, then appeared in the police station with absolutely no mention of what had happened. The scene in the woods could very well take place after they figure out what was missing, or even later as you speculated. "something is supposed to happen here" - we never see why he believes that. There's NO information to support his claim, if you don't count "indian intuition".
When Hawk comes to the grove, Gerrard says "someone is coming", which made me think he was referring to Hawk, but then Laura approaches. I think Laura here is a red herring. Someone did come, someone who gave Laura reason to say "you can go now".

Another thing that stands out is how Bad Coop goes to get Ray and Darya, but they don't do anything. They leave, then the next time we see them they're at diner with a 4th person, who they really point out is very hungry. He also never says a thing and is VERY submissive to Bad Coop. Also Ray seems much more negative towards Bad Coop in the diner than he is in cabin. Pretty much challenging him.
Agent Cooper. Listen to the sounds.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Wed May 24, 2017 10:41 pm

After getting through Westworld, I'm starting to see the manipulation of timelines via film editing everywhere I look. I think people are on the right track in this case, though. It seems odd that Hawk would get that far and then stop.

I did finally see the 4th episode, and saw the military block on the fingerprints. I think that's a pretty hard clue that the body belongs to Briggs. Bobby says his dad "burned" in a fire, but does that body look charred? I couldn't tell if it was just bruising or decomposition. It also makes me think that Briggs was imprisoned somewhere for a long time.

It sounds like Jeffries and Doppecooper were working together whenever Albert had given them the information. I wish they had nailed down the time that occurred. All he said was that it was years ago.

Finally, in the blue-scene, when Albert crunches his shoes on the pavement, it sounded like the sound the giant played with the record player again didn't it? Not sure what that means. I think it's the third place we've heard it now. (Glass Box, Casino, Albert's Shoes).
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Normonaut
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Normonaut » Wed May 24, 2017 10:44 pm

Hmm, if Briggs BURNED in a fire, are they really sure it was him? Was the charred corpse easily identifiable?
Could Briggs have survived up until very recently, perhaps somehow together with BadCoop?
Agent Cooper. Listen to the sounds.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Wed May 24, 2017 11:37 pm

Do we know of enough credited musical artistes to say every episode will end in the same way?
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby AmyCringeneck » Thu May 25, 2017 12:25 am

I think the theory of the body being Major Briggs is pretty good, considering his head - and only his head - floats by Coop with a "Blue Lodge."
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Thu May 25, 2017 12:26 am

Normonaut wrote:Hmm, if Briggs BURNED in a fire, are they really sure it was him? Was the charred corpse easily identifiable?
Could Briggs have survived up until very recently, perhaps somehow together with BadCoop?


Well, I think he disappeared when his building burned down, but he was abducted again beforehand. I think he's been held somewhere all this time. In Secret History, remember, he is dictating when Agent Cooper comes to visit. Then he continues his dictation when Cooper leaves, and this takes place after "Cooper" has left the Black Lodge. Briggs knows that something is wrong. The very next day his place of employment burns down and he is presumed dead. Bobby recounts this meeting in Episode 4. My theory is that DoppelCoop knew that the jig was up right out of the gate and had to eliminate Briggs. It's possible he stole the gadgetry at that time and Briggs has been held somewhere. (Or Jefferies is so timeless/out of time that when he says "you just visited Garland Briggs" that it could have happened 25 years before...or furthermore, when he said "you" he was referring to Dale Cooper encountering the space-head of Briggs that says "Blue Rose). This is really getting complicated and we're less than a quarter way through the series!
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Normonaut
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Normonaut » Thu May 25, 2017 12:34 am

HagbardCeline wrote:
Normonaut wrote:Hmm, if Briggs BURNED in a fire, are they really sure it was him? Was the charred corpse easily identifiable?
Could Briggs have survived up until very recently, perhaps somehow together with BadCoop?


Well, I think he disappeared when his building burned down, but he was abducted again beforehand. I think he's been held somewhere all this time. In Secret History, remember, he is dictating when Agent Cooper comes to visit. Then he continues his dictation when Cooper leaves, and this takes place after "Cooper" has left the Black Lodge. Briggs knows that something is wrong. The very next day his place of employment burns down and he is presumed dead. Bobby recounts this meeting in Episode 4. My theory is that DoppelCoop knew that the jig was up right out of the gate and had to eliminate Briggs. It's possible he stole the gadgetry at that time and Briggs has been held somewhere. (Or Jefferies is so timeless/out of time that when he says "you just visited Garland Briggs" that it could have happened 25 years before...or furthermore, when he said "you" he was referring to Dale Cooper encountering the space-head of Briggs that says "Blue Rose). This is really getting complicated and we're less than a quarter way through the series!

I just assume that a body was found, otherwise they wouldn't just assume he died in the fire, especially considering he has disappeared before and he was just visited by a man who disappeared himself.
So a body was probably found, but it could have been damaged to the point that ID'ing it was impossible, so everyone assumed it was Briggs, since it was his work place and he's missing.
Yes BadCoop probably realized that Briggs was on to him, and that his Cooper impersonation was creepy af, so he followed him to work the next day and did... something.
I'm not sure BadCoop got the tablet from Briggs though, since Windows Surface didn't exactly exist in 1990. I'd guess it was either Jeffries (FBI login info) or another random FBI dude.
Also, was the prison info he downloaded the same prison he ended up in? Why did he download it? Breaking out? Breaking in? Trying to find Ray? So many questions.


aaalso wondering what will come of the "I need you and [NAME] to be at a certain place at a certain time" he said to Chantal/Shue.
Agent Cooper. Listen to the sounds.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby sp.agent.dalecooper » Thu May 25, 2017 12:46 am

On the whole timeline thing, one thing that jumped out at me tonight watching 1&2 again is when Bill Hastings seemingly improvs the bit about having to take his secretary home after the meeting on the previous Thursday because she had "car trouble"

Then later in Ep 2, BadCoop either tells someone or or asks someone if they've taken car if the wiring with Bill Hastings secretary.

It could be unrelated(and apologies if it's already been mentioned) but it stood out as a possible clue into the timing of things
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Thu May 25, 2017 2:17 am

So people would be happy with a much-treasured character like Major Briggs - and by implication Don Davis - being literally thrown away as a bloated, mangled corpse?
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby HagbardCeline » Thu May 25, 2017 2:58 am

sp.agent.dalecooper wrote:On the whole timeline thing, one thing that jumped out at me tonight watching 1&2 again is when Bill Hastings seemingly improvs the bit about having to take his secretary home after the meeting on the previous Thursday because she had "car trouble"

Then later in Ep 2, BadCoop either tells someone or or asks someone if they've taken car if the wiring with Bill Hastings secretary.

It could be unrelated(and apologies if it's already been mentioned) but it stood out as a possible clue into the timing of things


The impression I got from that was that they were wiring the car to explode, but it seems odd that they'd want to kill her if DoppelCoop thinks she has the coordinates he's after.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby trismegistus » Thu May 25, 2017 5:50 am

Has anyone else made note that the di on the floor logo for the Silver Mustang Casino prominently displays a 2-5-3. I'm not familiar with numerology but since the casino is fictional, that would mean the numbers are deliberate.

Edit: Also noticed that all the slot machines run on quarters (25¢) and say "Play 3 Coins." Obviously that is a stretch to say the least but I thought it was at least worth noting.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Driftwood » Thu May 25, 2017 6:03 am

douglasb wrote:So people would be happy with a much-treasured character like Major Briggs - and by implication Don Davis - being literally thrown away as a bloated, mangled corpse?

cooper is a treasured character and he's a drooling idiot right now playing casino games
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby yaxomoxay » Thu May 25, 2017 6:08 am

Brunohbt wrote:Hey, I'm gonna repost a theory I had written back at the subreddit.
As I rewatched ep. 3 yesterday, I think it feels even more far fetched but, who knows, maybe something might come out of that.

I have this theory that, by now, has more holes than the NY couple combined, here it goes. It all starts with a look upon the structure of the narrative and how I feel that there's something not quite right.
The first couple episodes seem to build up to a special point in time where Bad Coop and Good Coop will be reunited at the Lodge. From Bad Coop's perspective that is the day after tomorrow (when he meets Darya, Ray and Jack at the diner) and then tomorrow (when he kills Darya).
After that we see him rushing down the highway, getting into an accident, being arrested and all that. Meanwhile we're led to believe that Dougie was manufactured in order to take Bad Coop's place in this "Black Lodge homecoming party".

The next episode also states that, on the day following Bad Cooper's arrest, he is visited by Gordon, Albert and Tamara "why am I so hyper-sexualized" Preston. (Remember Gordon mishearing Albert and saying something like: "I'm glad you're in a hurry, but we'll go tomorrow"?)
So, if we were to establish that the return of Bad Cooper to the Lodge is on day 0, we can say that he killed darya on day -1, went to the diner on day -2, and met Gordon on day +1, therefore being able to escape the optimal date of return.

Ok, so what's the problem then? Well, I think the scene where Hawk goes to Glastonbury Grove actually takes place on day 0, and is the culmination of the show. I think that, at that time he finds the good Agent Cooper as he leaves the Lodge, but the whole show is edited to make us think otherwise.
I believe the police station scenes take place before day 0. Remember how it is presented to us?
:arrow: Hawk gets a call from the Log Lady
:arrow: Hawk gathers Lucy and Andy so they'll look through Laura Palmer's casefiles
:arrow: Hawk says he'll get coffee and donuts
:arrow: Hawk goes to Glasntonbury Grove already knowing something important is hapenning that night
:arrow: Hawk goes back to the station with coffee and donuts, do not mention anything about his walk through the woods and leaves poor old log lady waiting for him with coffee and pie!!!!

In my opinion, the Hawk in the woods scene is suposed to be placed on the end of the list. I think it is the end of Hawk's search for Cooper, whereas, the Gordon/Bad Cooper timeline takes place days before what I'm calling day 0, coming before the murder of Darya, wich is supposed to happen on day -1 (Bad Coop says he's to go to the lodge "Tomorrow")


Here are a few of the points I will use to support and also discredit this theory:
:arrow: There's some clever editing in the Black Lodge Scenes. Starting with One Armed Man saying "Is it future or is it past" and then Laura saying Cooper could leave. Just a few minutes later, One Armed Man shows up again, repeats the "future or past" thing and brings Cooper to the arm who says "NOPE, for you to leave, the other one must come in". So why did Laura said he could leave already? Because the Laura Scene takes place after the encounter with the arm. I.E.: It was future. (pardon me for trying to factor time into the timelessness of the lodge)

:arrow: There's a particular take in the lodge that intrigues me (yup, just one. Like I understood everything else): Cooper goes to the curtains corridor and opens the curtains to leave. There's a very harsh cut in the scene and we see him in a slightly different position hitting what looks like a wall, not beeing able to go through the curtains. In a linear time I think that, at first Coop tried to leave and hit that wall, but on the future we we'll see him repeat the first part of the scene where he was actually able to go through the curtains.

:arrow: Maybe we're being led to believe that some important clues are non-sequiturs ("We'll go tomorrow, Albert)
I remember Mark Frost saying something like "it will be a completely different way to deliver episodes". Maybe he was talking about doing it subliminarly out of order? (Maybe he never watched that other show that also does that)

:arrow: Is it ever revealed why Bad Coop switches cars? Maybe in the Buella scene he has the car he got after the crash. (Please refer below to another look at cars.)

ON THE OTHER HAND
:arrow: I'm not sure if Bad Cooper is driving the car Jack gets him in day -1 when he crashes. If so, then the car crash scene would have to take place in day 0 and the interview in day +1, therefore ruining this theory.

If it's the same car, there's a chance the scene took place before day -1. Even before day -2. Maybe Jack went on to get Bad Coop another car and then got killed on day -1. I mean, maybe that rubbing face thing was nothing more than two adults sharing a tender moment, and Jack was killed off screen in another point in time.

:arrow: All that being said, could we say that Good Cooper already left the Lodge? I mean, if that's really him on day 0, taking Dougie's place, then the whole theory crumbles as well, right?


Very very intriguing. But at which point in evilCoop's timeline does goodCoop switch with Doguie?
If your theory is correct it means that Bad Coop won the battle.
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Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Burns's Suite » Thu May 25, 2017 6:25 am

douglasb wrote:So people would be happy with a much-treasured character like Major Briggs - and by implication Don Davis - being literally thrown away as a bloated, mangled corpse?

This is one thing that's truly troubling me too. I mean it'd be one thing to write out Major Briggs like that if Don Davis was still alive and declined returning to the show, but seeing such a well respected actor, who's been dead for over a decade, have his character written out like that doesn't sit right with me.

However that seems to be the direction the shows going in, or at least what Lynch and Frost are leading us to believe at this point. We've still got 14 episodes to go though, so time will tell.
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Re: RE: Re: Theories & Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Thu May 25, 2017 8:23 am

Driftwood wrote:
douglasb wrote:So people would be happy with a much-treasured character like Major Briggs - and by implication Don Davis - being literally thrown away as a bloated, mangled corpse?

cooper is a treasured character and he's a drooling idiot right now playing casino games

Well, don't get me started on THAT!

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