Theories & Speculation

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mtwentz
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Sun May 27, 2018 7:07 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I’m with Needleman. I’m not embracing this as my definitive approach to the material, but it’s very well thought-out and interesing to think about. Great work.


My favorite aspect of The Return is that it generates so many well thought out theories by so many intelligent posters.

My own take is that questions like 'Is it future or is it past?' and 'who is the dreamer?' don't have a right or wrong answer. They are meant to be thought provoking, to answer deeper questions, not just about the show, but of the very nature of human existence itself.

Edit: But if I had to choose a character that was "the dreamer", I'd choose the one who does not appear in the show: Donna Hayward. Donna saw the girl running and screaming in the schoolyard (shown at the beginning and during Andy's meeting with The Fireman) and she saw Laura come to her front door crying, of which Gordon Cole enigmatically has a vision.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jerry Horne » Sun May 27, 2018 7:54 am

Good stuff TwinBeaks. I have a different take on the sounds the Fireman is telling Coop to listen to, but hearing others sound off (plus coffee of course) helps fire my Peaks brain.
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krishnanspace
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Sun May 27, 2018 8:02 am

mtwentz wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I’m with Needleman. I’m not embracing this as my definitive approach to the material, but it’s very well thought-out and interesing to think about. Great work.


My favorite aspect of The Return is that it generates so many well thought out theories by so many intelligent posters.

My own take is that questions like 'Is it future or is it past?' and 'who is the dreamer?' don't have a right or wrong answer. They are meant to be thought provoking, to answer deeper questions, not just about the show, but of the very nature of human existence itself.
Edit: But if I had to choose a character that was "the dreamer", I'd choose the one who does not appear in the show: Donna Hayward. Donna saw the girl running and screaming in the schoolyard (shown at the beginning and during Andy's meeting with The Fireman) and she saw Laura come to her front door crying, of which Gordon Cole enigmatically has a vision.

Woah. So Donna is the one ;)
LateReg
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Sun May 27, 2018 8:04 am

mtwentz wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:I’m with Needleman. I’m not embracing this as my definitive approach to the material, but it’s very well thought-out and interesing to think about. Great work.


My favorite aspect of The Return is that it generates so many well thought out theories by so many intelligent posters.

My own take is that questions like 'Is it future or is it past?' and 'who is the dreamer?' don't have a right or wrong answer. They are meant to be thought provoking, to answer deeper questions, not just about the show, but of the very nature of human existence itself.

Edit: But if I had to choose a character that was "the dreamer", I'd choose the one who does not appear in the show: Donna Hayward. Donna saw the girl running and screaming in the schoolyard (shown at the beginning and during Andy's meeting with The Fireman) and she saw Laura come to her front door crying, of which Gordon Cole enigmatically has a vision.


MT, I have harbored this secret theory since during the show for the same reasons, namely that we see the girl screaming across the courtyard twice. While I believe the dreamer question is not supposed to be answered literally, I also believe in taking a literal approach, and Donna is in my top 5. There's also the final moments in Part 16 with Sonny Jim saying You're my dad! Almost just like Donna in episode 29.

Meanwhile, I love TwinBeaks theory. As far as literal interpretations go for who is dreaming, it may be my favorite. The question of what year is this?...clearly has many meanings and purposes, but I've most recently realized how purposely dates are obscured throughout the show (and muddled in Frost's books). Its a question we were asking each other at the start and during the series. Its a question that ties into Twin Peaks as both a world with a linear timeline set supposedly 25 years later as well as a work of fiction that was was released 27 years later, fiction blending with reality throughout the show. And in this world we are never precisely told what year it is (except in the past) and there are clues that time can be looked at as jumbled and repeating. So I think it's a sign that because of Cooper's actions time is not set and there is currently no official version, time is finding its sync throughout the show resulting in the ultimate confusion for our protagonist (like Jeffries before him) and for the audience. That's both my thematic and literal interpretation, even though I couldn't pinpoint the year itself.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby TwinBeaks » Sun May 27, 2018 9:13 am

Thanks, everybody.

I'm glad that my theory is stimulating thought and discussion.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Soolsma » Mon May 28, 2018 6:01 am

Could it be as simple that Gerard/MIKE's main motivation for aiding Cooper was to stop BOB? Their rivalry has always been quite apparent.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Mon May 28, 2018 6:11 am

Soolsma wrote:Could it be as simple that Gerard/MIKE's main motivation for aiding Cooper was to stop BOB? Their rivalry has always been quite apparent.


I think so, yes.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jerry Horne » Tue May 29, 2018 4:05 pm

The Drugged-out Mother aka The 119 Lady.

I've been thinking a lot about her recently. She only does a few things. Drink booze, take pills, sleep, and yell out '119'. I wasn't the first to notice the objects on the table where we always see her sitting at. Two stand out immediately.

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Playing cards and a safety pin. When Mr. C shows Daria his ace of spades card, there are markings both above and below the ominous black figure. Those markings could easily be made by such a pin. If we assume this is not a coincidence, then what does it mean?

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When asked why the woman repeats "one-one-nine," Mark Frost stated in an interview that "The people who have one foot in the other world have a pronounced tendency to speak backwards."

Okay! Given that she is credited as Drugged-out Mother, could she be or some version of.. MOTHER? The Mother that American Girl is warning Coop about? The Mother in the Glass Box etc? Mark's clue is huge and the only thing we have outside the show itself.

The Vegas reality. I've continued to go back and forth on this. Is anything we are seeing in Vegas real? Why does The One Armed Man appear to Dougie and tell him to wake up and not to die. Don't die. Is Dougie in a coma? How long has Dougie been in a coma? Did he dream of being hit in the head with a baseball?

Could Vegas be a pocket reality? Or, as Mark Frost says - the 'Other World'? For Dougie, Vegas is one big training ground. Everybody is patient and oblivious to him seemingly having 10% of the I.Q. of Sonny Jim. People guide him back home. Some sort of Lodge Spirit guides him to the winning slot machines with the result of paying off his debts. The only issue with the Vegas pocket reality is that later on, some of the Vegas characters show up in Peaks after Coop wakes up.

119 is of course 911 backwards. Jade gives Dougie five dollars and tells him to call for help. 911 is literally someone calling for help. Is Drugged-out 'Mother' mocking Dougie? Or, is the purpose of 119 simply to counterpoint 911? If we fall down the Vegas pocket reality rabbit hole, it is interesting to note that 'Mother' drinks to excess just as Douglas Jones did. Is Drugged-out 'Mother' the diametric opposite of Dougie? Is she about to morph and wake up eventually as well? Is Vegas corrupting to Black Lodge spirits? Is Vegas mainly a friendly recuperating ground that the Black Lodge has trouble functioning in? After all, through electricity, Duncan Todd is instructed to contact Ike the Spike to kill both Dougie and Lorriene. Lorriene has a bizarre camera device lodged in the wall right behind her desk. Forces outside city limits utilize men and woman to do their bidding but seem unable to reside (effectively) within.

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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue May 29, 2018 5:51 pm

Great stuff, Jerry. This is the first I’ve heard/thought about this particular connection, but it definitely seems like that playing card came from Drugged-Out Mom’s table! For those who don’t know, safety pins and playing cards can both be paraphernalia for drug use. Drugged-Out Mom appears to have crack cocaine loose on the table. Safety pins can be used to break up big rocks of the drug into smaller smokeable pieces. Playing cards are usually more associated with pure cocaine, but it seems she was breaking the crack up on the playing cards to avoid damaging the table (note that the card has not only pinholes but also scratches, indicating that the pin slid while she was putting pressure on it). So how did Judy’s symbol get on that particular card, and what is Mr. C’s relationship to the woman that led him to be in possession of one of her cards? I believe I’ve seen it speculated before that the woman and child are a dark incarnation of the Tremonds/Chalfonts; I’m really starting to buy into that theory. And how did Dougie and Jade come to pick that particular house to rendezvous, conveniently across the street from this house full of bad juju that also seems to have a link to Mr. C? Did Jade choose the location? How suspicious should we be of her, given the loaded connotations of her name? Note that while very brief exposure to Mr. C’s vomit sends a trooper to the hospital, Jade spends a decent amount of time in an enclosed space with Dougie’s vomit and seems to suffer no consequences. She also mails the 315 key, which indirectly lets Dale into the Odessaverse via his hubris-driven time travel. I don’t personally buy the “Vegas as pocket universe” theory, but there is definitely more going on in Rancho Rosa than meets the eye.

(Others — Xavi perhaps? — have also noted the oddly metatextual appearance of Cooper’s Pilot quote on the Great Northern hotel key. I don’t think that automatically makes Vegas a dream-reality/Lodge space, though. I think the key is a sort of Lodge-generated talisman that Cooper is armed with upon exiting, rather than literally the same physical key from 1989...hence why it opens the boiler room.)
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jerry Horne » Tue May 29, 2018 6:07 pm

Ah, thank you for reminding me of Jade. Of course we know of Jade from Invitation To Love which is a constructed reality itself.

I'm not sure about the unreality of Vegas myself, but I feel it needs to be mentioned just to get it out there and work through it.

Can someone remind me why the One Armed Man tells Dougie to wake up and not die?
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Tue May 29, 2018 6:18 pm

Gerard does not want Cooper to die because if he dies before Me C, then Mr C will not return to the Lodge.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jerry Horne » Tue May 29, 2018 6:35 pm

mtwentz wrote:Gerard does not want Cooper to die because if he dies before Me C, then Mr C will not return to the Lodge.


Gotcha. I'm only a third of the way through my first re-watch.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby AXX°N N. » Tue May 29, 2018 7:18 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I think the key is a sort of Lodge-generated talisman that Cooper is armed with upon exiting, rather than literally the same physical key from 1989...hence why it opens the boiler room.)

Exactly what I think, too. The pins on Cooper's lapel, and Annie's dress fall into the same category, though they seem far less stable...
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Tue May 29, 2018 10:22 pm

Great post indeed, Jerry. Never thought about the playing card! I'm a primary advocate for numerous levels of reality intersecting, each equally real. Vegas as pocket could fit into that, but there's maybe no "literal" way to make sense of it, which I'm fine with.

I'm also one who pointed out the metatextual aspect of Cooper's 315 room key. But I did so not only metatextually, but primarily as a signifier to Cooper's subjective reality, ie perhaps his subconscious, which would make Vegas a sort of pocket dimension in that way.

That said, a further thought about Vegas is that Rancho Rosa is the housing development, and it is here we find one of the most complex intertwinings of the real and unreal. Perhaps that housing development is meant to signify the unreal...by referencing the real? It's Lynch's production company, which we are reminded of before each and every episode, so when we see the housing development sign we are reminded of the outside world, that we are watching a film, that we are indeed seeing a fiction, something unreal, which we know because we are seeing something real. It's an incredibly knotty thread to follow in circles. That certainly dovetails with increasing intrusions of the real world in the second half of the series, as well as my theory of intertwined levels of equally real realities. (Narrative reality, subconscious, dream, projection, meta/real world, etc.) It's all bound up, one and the same, the unified field.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby claaa7 » Tue May 29, 2018 11:02 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:The Drugged-out Mother aka The 119 Lady.

I've been thinking a lot about her recently. She only does a few things. Drink booze, take pills, sleep, and yell out '119'. I wasn't the first to notice the objects on the table where we always see her sitting at. Two stand out immediately.

Playing cards and a safety pin. When Mr. C shows Daria his ace of spades card, there are markings both above and below the ominous black figure. Those markings could easily be made by such a pin. If we assume this is not a coincidence, then what does it mean?

When asked why the woman repeats "one-one-nine," Mark Frost stated in an interview that "The people who have one foot in the other world have a pronounced tendency to speak backwards."

Okay! Given that she is credited as Drugged-out Mother, could she be or some version of.. MOTHER? The Mother that American Girl is warning Coop about? The Mother in the Glass Box etc? Mark's clue is huge and the only thing we have outside the show itself.

The Vegas reality. I've continued to go back and forth on this. Is anything we are seeing in Vegas real? Why does The One Armed Man appear to Dougie and tell him to wake up and not to die. Don't die. Is Dougie in a coma? How long has Dougie been in a coma? Did he dream of being hit in the head with a baseball?

Could Vegas be a pocket reality? Or, as Mark Frost says - the 'Other World'? For Dougie, Vegas is one big training ground. Everybody is patient and oblivious to him seemingly having 10% of the I.Q. of Sonny Jim. People guide him back home. Some sort of Lodge Spirit guides him to the winning slot machines with the result of paying off his debts. The only issue with the Vegas pocket reality is that later on, some of the Vegas characters show up in Peaks after Coop wakes up.

119 is of course 911 backwards. Jade gives Dougie five dollars and tells him to call for help. 911 is literally someone calling for help. Is Drugged-out 'Mother' mocking Dougie? Or, is the purpose of 119 simply to counterpoint 911? If we fall down the Vegas pocket reality rabbit hole, it is interesting to note that 'Mother' drinks to excess just as Douglas Jones did. Is Drugged-out 'Mother' the diametric opposite of Dougie? Is she about to morph and wake up eventually as well? Is Vegas corrupting to Black Lodge spirits? Is Vegas mainly a friendly recuperating ground that the Black Lodge has trouble functioning in? After all, through electricity, Duncan Todd is instructed to contact Ike the Spike to kill both Dougie and Lorriene. Lorriene has a bizarre camera device lodged in the wall right behind her desk. Forces outside city limits utilize men and woman to do their bidding but seem unable to reside (effectively) within.



great stuff Jerry.. the playing card is certainly interesting and seems to connect in some way. perhaps Jade and Dougie used that house across the street on the regular and the mother/son (Tremonds connection?) took up squatting there to be able to keep an eye on them.

i had a theory about the "wake up, don't die" line that Gerard is trying to get Cooper to mentally wake up and use his initiution and sharp detective mind to make the connections in the case file. had he failed this Bushnell wouldn't have known about the fraud from within which would have resulted in the Mitchum Brothers killing Cooper since he wouldn't have had the envelope for them.

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