Theories & Speculation

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N. Needleman
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:38 am

All I have to say atm is my interpretation of 18 was always that the Dougie that went home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim was a "purer" tulpa, created from the original Cooper and not the twisted, flawed doppelganger. I assumed then and now, based on Kyle's new comments, that this Dougie possesses many of Cooper's best traits and at least an average adult intellect and capacity for empathy and autonomous adult behavior. Though he may still be a bit of a goof. ;)
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LateReg
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:54 am

N. Needleman wrote:All I have to say atm is my interpretation of 18 was always that the Dougie that went home to Janey-E and Sonny Jim was a "purer" tulpa, created from the original Cooper and not the twisted, flawed doppelganger. I assumed then and now, based on Kyle's new comments, that this Dougie possesses many of Cooper's best traits and at least an average adult intellect and capacity for empathy and autonomous adult behavior. Though he may still be a bit of a goof. ;)


That is also my interpretation. He's purer because he came from Cooper rather than Mr. C, so he will be fully functioning like the original Dougie Jones that Mr. C made, but will be a much greater person on top of it.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:20 pm

Near the end of the first chapter of his new biography, DKL talks about his belief that we enter the world with a lot of our personality predetermined regardless of the circumstances of the rest of our lives. I’m not sure how much I agree, but I think this theory definitely speaks to where DKL is coming from with Dougie.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:46 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Near the end of the first chapter of his new biography, DKL talks about his belief that we enter the world with a lot of our personality predetermined regardless of the circumstances of the rest of our lives. I’m not sure how much I agree, but I think this theory definitely speaks to where DKL is coming from with Dougie.


I agree. He also talked early on about how the character is about rediscovering the things you love.
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I'm the Muffin
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby I'm the Muffin » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:14 am

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what do we think of the idea that Cooper creating the Dougie-tulpa is responsible for his different personality in episode 18? That he has extracted Dougie's qualities (i.e. magnetic positivity, intuition, compassion etc) out of his own personality to do so? To me, this explains why Mr. C is different in The Return to his cackling portrayal in Ep 29--he has extracted his ability to experience pleasure to create the hedonistic original Dougie. This would also provide an ennobling explanation for Cooper's disconcerting characterisation in Ep 18--it's a result of a great sacrifice he's made for the sake of Janey-E/Sonny Jim. That strikes me as a very Agent Cooper thing to do.
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Jasper
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jasper » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:15 pm

I'm the Muffin wrote:Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what do we think of the idea that Cooper creating the Dougie-tulpa is responsible for his different personality in episode 18? That he has extracted Dougie's qualities (i.e. magnetic positivity, intuition, compassion etc) out of his own personality to do so? To me, this explains why Mr. C is different in The Return to his cackling portrayal in Ep 29--he has extracted his ability to experience pleasure to create the hedonistic original Dougie. This would also provide an ennobling explanation for Cooper's disconcerting characterisation in Ep 18--it's a result of a great sacrifice he's made for the sake of Janey-E/Sonny Jim. That strikes me as a very Agent Cooper thing to do.


Yes, a lot of people have had this thought.

One argument against it being the reason for the change in Mr. C's demeanor between ep. 29 and season 3 is the Great Northern scene in the Missing Pieces, where after they pick up doppelcoop from the bathroom floor, he behaves in pretty much the same manner as season 3 Mr. C. That said, this might not really matter. If they like, Lynch and Frost can certainly wave that moment away, especially since it wasn't included in FWWM.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby I'm the Muffin » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:16 pm

Jasper wrote:One argument against it being the reason for the change in Mr. C's demeanor between ep. 29 and season 3 is the Great Northern scene in the Missing Pieces, where after they pick up doppelcoop from the bathroom floor, he behaves in pretty much the same manner as season 3 Mr. C. That said, this might not really matter. If they like, Lynch and Frost can certainly wave that moment away, especially since it wasn't included in FWWM.


Yes, he does act rather similar in the 'brushing my teeth' scene--but I think that what we're seeing there is the distinction between his private and public personas--him just being himself at the mirror, and then him trying to emulate normal human behaviour. But in Season 3, even in private moments, we never get a sense that Mr. C is even capable of mirth or pleasure anymore.
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Mr. Strawberry
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:13 pm

The other day, out of nowhere, some things kind of fell into place and clicked for whatever reason. I got a gut feeling about the portal that Dale goes through, and that kind of snowballed into some ideas. As has been suggested many times over the past year, once you reach such a juncture, you can "make sense of it" in your own way:

The person we see at the end of the story is not merely an integration of Cooper and Mr. C, but rather an inhabitant of something much greater in scope: collapsed realities.

The realities themselves are manifested by the person experiencing them -- the so-called "dreamer". Since Dale had more or less manifested Mr. C, he in turn gave birth to his own personal hell, essentially creating and then inhabiting another reality just as real and valid as the original. Jeffries knows this, and sees Mr. C for what he is: "So, you are Cooper." He does appear to be 100% human, demonstrated by the fact that he relies on BOB for supernatural abilities and preternatural strength, and proven by the need for him to be wearing the ring in order to be sent back to The Red Room.

When Diane pulled the lever, she helped Cooper "shift realities", and in turn that presented a different room, containing a different portal to a different destination. Dale Cooper went through the portal and into what could be called "Mr. C's reality". Had she not done so, Cooper might have returned to his own reality when the switch occurred at 2:53, or even been erased altogether. Either way this would have left Mr. C's reality intact, sustaining Dale's nightmare indefinitely.

From an allegorical perspective, we all have thoughts and feelings that are not good ones, and Mr. C symbolizes what happens to a person when they succumb to lust, rage, materialism, and so forth. When that happens, a person's reality is in peril due to the inability to see right from wrong. Wants and desires become the justification for all actions. From a physical or outward perspective, the potential for him to eventually corrupt or completely wipe out the "better half of the world" becomes a real possibility. But whatever Mr. C was up to, it could not have been good for anyone, and certainly no one could ever really be safe from him or what he represents. Just look at what happened to Audrey and Diane.

Once Mr. C is snuffed out and sent to The Red Room, his reality collapses, because "the dreamer" that manifests it is no more.

Dale eventually emerges into his former reality and meets with Diane. She seems to recall events from "the official version", though Dale's meddling with the past has altered aspects of the world.

Dale and Diane cross over to a reality that is neither Dale's nor Mr. C's, but rather a summation of the two worlds that collided, where they risk becoming "lost in a dream" for the sake of pursuing their shared goal. Since it is the result of two realities merged into one, it is a place where -- among many other differences -- Sarah seems to have put her daughter up for adoption at a very young age, The Palmers do not live in the house we expect them to inhabit, the Double RR is not Norma's, and Dale Cooper is no longer quite himself. The world seems recognizable but peculiar.

On the surface, one sees "that same old place", but closer investigation reveals enough changes to make it simultaneously distant and unfamiliar, and in that physically tangible explanation lies an abstracted suggestion that underlies the entire story.

Upon experiencing this "explanation", I suddenly realized that Gerard had essentially explained all of this to Cooper when he spoke of being "between two worlds".


Afterthoughts:

This line of thinking might explain the dreamlike, otherworldly sensation that "Mr. C's reality" imparts. From the slogan on the Great Northern Key, to Dale's ability to reach directly into The Red Room, to the greatly altered Diane, not to mention the many "inconsistencies" that have been identified, there's something off about this version of the world. Whether or not it is "The Trial" that one endures on the way to perfection, that Hawk spoke of, is probably something for another discussion, though.

Retroactively, the circle of twelve candles that BOB is tending to in the hospital basement can be seen as the face of a clock. They are snuffed out upon his death, and things go dark.

Of course I'm not suggesting that this was the original meaning behind those candles, in the same way that Gerard asking, "Have you got a nickel?" was not written specifically for the scene with Hawk in the stall. However, I am most definitely implying that Frost and Lynch were very diligent in creating a story that used the original material to propel the events in The Return and grant them additional meaning, while allowing these scenes to "be read" for a deeper understanding.

For example, Dale is awakened in his room at The Great Northern at 2:24 in the morning. These events in the basement could easily take place roughly 30 minutes later, around 2:53.

In brilliant fashion, these things were seemingly capitalized upon and expanded into everything that unfolds in The Return, binding the old to the new though extremely creative writing.
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Hester Prynne
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Hester Prynne » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:48 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:e e,

. . . the slogan on the Great Northern Key . . .



I don't know why that never jumped out at me before, but that's right - "Clean Place, Reasonably Priced," is what Cooper says he is looking for in a hotel to Harry Truman from the original series - it shouldn't be on the back of the key. I think it's another great example that maybe what we are watching is a dream or a version of reality that Cooper has conjured up with his mind. Or it could just be one of Mike's attempts to snap Cooper out of it while he's Dougie.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:50 am

Hester Prynne wrote:I don't know why that never jumped out at me before, but that's right - "Clean Place, Reasonably Priced," is what Cooper says he is looking for in a hotel to Harry Truman from the original series - it shouldn't be on the back of the key. I think it's another great example that maybe what we are watching is a dream or a version of reality that Cooper has conjured up with his mind. Or it could just be one of Mike's attempts to snap Cooper out of it while he's Dougie.

Isn't it weird? When the show was airing, in the context of Cooper's life possibly being a dream, that key jumped out at me more than anything, but not even because of the slogan. Something just felt so strange about it. For whatever reason, it seemed to represent or symbolize a different kind of key. Like, a key to understanding, or a key to enlightenment.

When some of the members here speculated that the key would eventually lead to Cooper "being found", they were more right than they could have known at the time. Of course we looked at it in a literal sense -- "they're gonna get the key and know Cooper is alive" or something. But, it actually did turn out to represent an unlocking of some form or another.

There is still so very much that I don't understand, however I only watched each Part once, as it aired. I didn't want to overwrite the intuitive thoughts and reactions that come during the first experience, if you get my drift. So I've probably forgotten about a whole lot of events, dialogue, and subtle details.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Hester Prynne » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:15 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Isn't it weird? When the show was airing, in the context of Cooper's life possibly being a dream, that key jumped out at me more than anything, but not even because of the slogan. Something just felt so strange about it. For whatever reason, it seemed to represent or symbolize a different kind of key. Like, a key to understanding, or a key to enlightenment.

When some of the members here speculated that the key would eventually lead to Cooper "being found", they were more right than they could have known at the time. Of course we looked at it in a literal sense -- "they're gonna get the key and know Cooper is alive" or something. But, it actually did turn out to represent an unlocking of some form or another.


I agree. In the BTS footage from the Sheriff's Dept scene in Ep. 17, Lynch's direction to Kyle was that time was holding for him, a gateway had opened, and he had the key.. The key, whatever it is supposed to represent, has always belonged to Cooper. Despite being returned, it finds its way back to him as he somehow knew it would. And the two gateways we see in Ep 3 are "3" and "15," his room number on the key - are they supposed to represent that his identity is split and he's not the Cooper he is supposed to be? He has the key initially as Dougie, but until he rediscovers who he truly is, it can't be returned to him. I have no idea what the key is supposed to represent, but it does have some sort of beautiful connection to Cooper's identity in some way, and maybe as you have suggested, it has lead Cooper to some kind of enlightenment.
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Soolsma
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Soolsma » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:59 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:Isn't it weird? When the show was airing, in the context of Cooper's life possibly being a dream, that key jumped out at me more than anything, but not even because of the slogan. Something just felt so strange about it. For whatever reason, it seemed to represent or symbolize a different kind of key. Like, a key to understanding, or a key to enlightenment.

When some of the members here speculated that the key would eventually lead to Cooper "being found", they were more right than they could have known at the time. Of course we looked at it in a literal sense -- "they're gonna get the key and know Cooper is alive" or something. But, it actually did turn out to represent an unlocking of some form or another.


I agree. In the BTS footage from the Sheriff's Dept scene in Ep. 17, Lynch's direction to Kyle was that time was holding for him, a gateway had opened, and he had the key.. The key, whatever it is supposed to represent, has always belonged to Cooper. Despite being returned, it finds its way back to him as he somehow knew it would. And the two gateways we see in Ep 3 are "3" and "15," his room number on the key - are they supposed to represent that his identity is split and he's not the Cooper he is supposed to be? He has the key initially as Dougie, but until he rediscovers who he truly is, it can't be returned to him. I have no idea what the key is supposed to represent, but it does have some sort of beautiful connection to Cooper's identity in some way, and maybe as you have suggested, it has lead Cooper to some kind of enlightenment.


This is pretty cool stuff, I've never really given the key much thought as of yet. But while we're at it, remember that it saved his life by being dropped thus evading the henchmen. Also, the very moment he leaves the key in the car, Laura tells him once more: "uoy nac og out won".
It has become quite obvious that metallic objects can serve as a conductor for any kind of electricity.
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Jasper
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jasper » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:21 pm

Soolsma wrote:This is pretty cool stuff, I've never really given the key much thought as of yet. But while we're at it, remember that it saved his life by being dropped thus evading the henchmen. Also, the very moment he leaves the key in the car, Laura tells him once more: "uoy nac og out won".
It has become quite obvious that metallic objects can serve as a conductor for any kind of electricity.


Good point.

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Xavi
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Xavi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:03 am

Image

"What's it open?"

What does a "skeleton-key" open? A space like "an otherworldly boiler-room" maybe?

Image

"Through the darkness of future's past, The magician longs to see. One chants out between two worlds... 'Fire... walk with me.' "
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Jasper
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Jasper » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:39 pm

To add a little more about Benjamin Franklin's kite experiment, here's some amusing Peaksy wording:

A house key belonging to Benjamin Loxley was attached to the hemp string and connected to a Leyden jar; a silk string was attached to this. "At this key he charged phials, and from the electric fire thus obtained, he kindled spirits, and performed all other electrical experiments which are usually exhibited by an excited globe or tube."

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