Theories & Speculation

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LateReg
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:07 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
LateReg wrote:I've read twice recently that Frost's original title was going to be Dead Man's Journey, and I believe you all obviously, but can someone link me the original article/interview?


I believe this was from the Sam Esmail interview: https://m.soundcloud.com/thetalkhouse/esmail-frost-320

Don’t have a timestamp, unfortunately. I think he actually says the name translates to “Dead Man’s Passage,” but he can’t remember the Spanish.

BTW, does anyone who’s visited the FWWM Fat Trout location know if that pole actually has those numbers on it, or were they added for the shoot? I think I recall reading somewhere that they were put up just for the shoot, but I can’t remember where.


No, that's cool, don't worry about the timestamp...that's one interview that I didn't listen to, so it will be a treat later! I just got done telling some friends about Sam Esmail's thoughts on the show - how he was on a couple year-end podcasts jovially but seriously calling out the others on the podcasts if they didn't have Twin Peaks number one - so this is ironic. I had also watched Amazon Prime's Homecoming, which Esmail directed in its entirety (he didn't write it, though). I was curious is if would bear any of Peaks influence, and I felt it did in a couple small ways. First, in the Lynch ripping sound/Deming camera shaky fissure in one particular scene, which could have come from any number of Lynch projects, of course. But secondly, the credits sequences capture stillness and movement in a way that was so distinct to The Return. It has that distinct look and sound and uncanny feel and tone in each credits sequence.
LateReg
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:13 pm

eyeboogers wrote:I don't think Lynch/Engels came up with all that mythology for FWWM. Rather I think Lynch/Frost had a way more detailed mythology planned out from the original show than we knew about.

F.ex. TSHoTP ties the mythology back to "The Lemurians", the show Lynch/Frost had been shopping around prior to "Twin Peaks". I think Frost had the Crowley/Parsons stuff in his back pocket, also diving into related areas as far back as "The List of 7". I haven't seen his "The Believers" movie (yet), so I don't know if there is anything from there that could also relate.

In terms of the source for the Jornado Del Muerto stuff, then Mr.Reindeer named one source, and then there are additional things like this.

TSHoTP page 255:

Jack Parsons: We were near there (Roswell). In the desert. A place they call Jornada del Muerto.

Dwayne Milford: That's near White Sands, isn't it?

Jack Parsons: Right. It means "Journey of the Dead Man." Isn't that beautiful? The way we all move through our lives.
Eyes closed. head down. shuffling along. Dead before our time. Journeying towards the grave.

Dwayne Milford: That's where they tested the bomb?

Jack Parsons: Yes. Such a furtile ground for the working (the ritual to bring forth "Morther"/the whore of Babylon).

________

I will add another quote from the same chapter here. Even though it does not relate to that location, it is pretty vital to understand the ending of "The Return".

Page 270:
"Once a magician stands between two worlds, he is in danger of not belonging to either one of them."

Implied that Parsons became a "magician" to become more than someone just shuffling towards his grave. A lot like Cooper and his superhero complex.


Thanks for all that! I had forgotten! That stuff about "the way we all move through our lives. eyes closed. head down. shuffling along. dead before our time. journeying towards the grave." is quite meaningful, I think, as far as what Frost is getting at with that subtitle and also how I interpret one of the facets of Cooper's return as Dougie, in terms of both the time lost and the way that Dougie moves about.

So is it a good thing that Cooper is striving to become someone who isn't just shuffling towards his grave, then? By straddling two worlds and risking not belonging to either one? Or is his path even worse?

Also, I've seen The Believers for a second time somewhat recently. For what it's worth, it's based on a book, I believe. I did notice some stuff that I would apply to Twin Peaks, but I can't for the life of me remember what right now.
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eyeboogers
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby eyeboogers » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:20 pm

LateReg wrote:So is it a good thing that Cooper is striving to become someone who isn't just shuffling towards his grave, then?


Well, that question entails that you or I agree with Jack Parsons notion of "ordinary" life having no meaning or merit, but clearly The Return has a different view on that, which can be found f.ex. in the Dr.Amp/Nadine/Big Ed storyline. There are struggles worth fighting, it is never too late to make yourself happy. Cooper's path - as well as Parsons' seems to lead only to tragedy.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Hester Prynne » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:08 pm

I'm not even going to try and understand this, but a family member was telling me about quantum entanglement. I have attached a link below. Basically, when two particles are "entangled," when the properties of one particle change, so do the properties of the other - regardless of distance and time. So, if you have entangled particles - one in the future and one in the past, if the one in the future changes, it automatically changes the one in the past! I am not a science person, so hopefully I'm explaining this correctly. Scientists can't figure out how the particles automatically "know" the other has changed as that information would have to exceed the speed of light. Very weird stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

So, maybe Cooper was wrong. Maybe the past doesn't always dictate the future. When Laura is sucked out of the Red Room in the beginning of The Return, maybe it simultaneously rips her away from Cooper in Part 17. And when Cooper's doppelgänger is killed, it also kills some part of Cooper if they are entangled. Maybe this is why he's so different in 18, and Diane/Linda refers to him as "Richard."
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Cappy » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:02 am

I always kind of viewed Laura getting sucked out of the Red Room and Laura disappearing at the end of ep. 17 to be occurring simultaneously (due to her scream being the exact same audio in both scenes). Like, the thing or force that rips her from the Black Lodge is the same thing or force that steals her from Cooper's grip in the woods. But what that thing or force is, I am not sure specifically.

It could be:

A) Cooper's time travel hijinks are being felt even before he embarks on them, and she disappears from the Red Room as her death has been erased by Cooper. Coop's time travel completely warps the timeline, even erasing his own reason for coming to Twin Peaks and subsequent time in the Lodge, so he can't even be saving Laura at the end of ep. 17, hence that scenario (and several scenarios in ep. 18) abruptly changing as the timeline reacts to the alterations.

B) Sarah Palmer's crazy fit when Coop saves Laura seems to indicate she has something to do with her Laura's disappearance from the woods. Also, after Laura disappears from the Red Room a white horse is visible, a motif frequently associated with Sarah.

C) The Giant takes Laura from the woods, after Cooper delivers her to him, and he sends her back to earth in a golden orb to somehow counteract BOB or JUDY (as depicted in ep. 8 ). This effectively undoes Laura's death, causing her to be ripped from the Black Lodge in ep. 2. And I think after the Laura orb gets shot onto Earth, it stops somewhere around the West Texas / New Mexico region.

D) Laura is dreaming all of this, and her being snatched from both moments is her waking up.

I don't like the psychological reductionism of Laura dreaming everything, but it's interesting that the final scene of S3 features Laura / Carrie Page hearing Sarah calling up to Laura from the pilot episode. Like, what if all of Twin Peaks (and maybe FWWM too?) was Laura dreaming or fantasizing about her own death. Maybe it was even a good dream in parts, but in the last shot of the series, where she screams, it might be because she is waking up in the Palmer house and she is much to her own horror, still alive.

Maybe instead of seeing some vague vision of BOB hiding behind Laura's bed (which she didn't see at first, but didn't she later recall seeing..?), all that Sarah would really find that morning was Laura laying in bed, sleeping, trying desperately not to be woken.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Leo K » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:34 pm

Cappy wrote:I always kind of viewed Laura getting sucked out of the Red Room and Laura disappearing at the end of ep. 17 to be occurring simultaneously (due to her scream being the exact same audio in both scenes). Like, the thing or force that rips her from the Black Lodge is the same thing or force that steals her from Cooper's grip in the woods. But what that thing or force is, I am not sure specifically.

It could be:

A) Cooper's time travel hijinks are being felt even before he embarks on them, and she disappears from the Red Room as her death has been erased by Cooper. Coop's time travel completely warps the timeline, even erasing his own reason for coming to Twin Peaks and subsequent time in the Lodge, so he can't even be saving Laura at the end of ep. 17, hence that scenario (and several scenarios in ep. 18) abruptly changing as the timeline reacts to the alterations.

B) Sarah Palmer's crazy fit when Coop saves Laura seems to indicate she has something to do with her Laura's disappearance from the woods. Also, after Laura disappears from the Red Room a white horse is visible, a motif frequently associated with Sarah.

C) The Giant takes Laura from the woods, after Cooper delivers her to him, and he sends her back to earth in a golden orb to somehow counteract BOB or JUDY (as depicted in ep. 8 ). This effectively undoes Laura's death, causing her to be ripped from the Black Lodge in ep. 2. And I think after the Laura orb gets shot onto Earth, it stops somewhere around the West Texas / New Mexico region.

D) Laura is dreaming all of this, and her being snatched from both moments is her waking up.

I don't like the psychological reductionism of Laura dreaming everything, but it's interesting that the final scene of S3 features Laura / Carrie Page hearing Sarah calling up to Laura from the pilot episode. Like, what if all of Twin Peaks (and maybe FWWM too?) was Laura dreaming or fantasizing about her own death. Maybe it was even a good dream in parts, but in the last shot of the series, where she screams, it might be because she is waking up in the Palmer house and she is much to her own horror, still alive.

Maybe instead of seeing some vague vision of BOB hiding behind Laura's bed (which she didn't see at first, but didn't she later recall seeing..?), all that Sarah would really find that morning was Laura laying in bed, sleeping, trying desperately not to be woken.


I enjoyed reading your thoughts above! Especially:

“C) The Giant takes Laura from the woods, after Cooper delivers her to him, and he sends her back to earth in a golden orb to somehow counteract BOB or JUDY (as depicted in ep. 8 ). This effectively undoes Laura's death, causing her to be ripped from the Black Lodge in ep. 2. And I think after the Laura orb gets shot onto Earth, it stops somewhere around the West Texas / New Mexico region.”

That is really an interesting explanation and why Carrie Paige exists as a second “Laura” (a second chance in the world).






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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:02 pm

Regarding your speculation Cappy, I haven't even begun to understand the events depicted in The Return and simply can't reach any conclusions at the moment. I can't "make sense of it". A rewatch is set to occur any day now and maybe I'll piece some things together throughout, or maybe just end up even more lost! I'll be watching with some new friends that happen to be diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics, and it will be their first viewing, so I anticipate much shared confusion.

I'm glad you brought this up though! A couple days ago I had a thought and meant to share here, but had completely forgotten about it until reading this.

The thought was:

When Cooper is sitting with the Giant and suddenly vanishes, he does so in the same manner as Laura's body. Since her body's sudden disappearance from the shore seems to be a result of Cooper's attempt to rewrite history, does this mean that his disappearance stems from the same?

Immediately after stating that he understands, he must have resolved to carry out a particular action in the future. With that future event "now occurring", things change and Cooper does not end up sitting here at this moment, thus his sudden disappearance. This doesn't really provide any answers though, instead it just creates more questions.

If nothing else it could prove that the opening summarizes much of what follows: Cooper is confident and determined, but his lack of comprehension leads to his undoing.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby krishnanspace » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:06 am

This guy has a theory that I subscribe to:
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Cappy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:19 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:When Cooper is sitting with the Giant and suddenly vanishes, he does so in the same manner as Laura's body. Since her body's sudden disappearance from the shore seems to be a result of Cooper's attempt to rewrite history, does this mean that his disappearance stems from the same?

Immediately after stating that he understands, he must have resolved to carry out a particular action in the future. With that future event "now occurring", things change and Cooper does not end up sitting here at this moment, thus his sudden disappearance. This doesn't really provide any answers though, instead it just creates more questions.


Wow, I had never even thought about that -- the disappearing visual effect on Cooper during that scene is the same as the effect on Laura's corpse in ep. 17. There's also that weird sound (phonograph malfunctioning..?) that plays before Laura disappears in the woods, which is also mentioned by the Giant in ep. 1 ("listen to the sounds").

My guess is that Cooper went to the White Lodge (or "the Fireman's House") with Laura at the end of ep. 17. She was shot back at Earth as some golden orb (a process that might make most persons scream), and Cooper sort of just disappears as he has changed the past events that brought him here to begin with.

Although that would beg the question, how did Cooper know how to find the White Lodge, and what compelled him to ever bring Laura there in the first place? Maybe he absorbed the coordinates and other information from the destroyed Mr. C, but I can't help but wonder what the hell he was attempting to accomplish here (or in most of ep. 18 for that matter).
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:54 am

Well in Frost's book Cooper still goes to Twin Peaks even thy the timeline has been changed. So Cooper did not necessarily disappear because he never went to Twin Peaks. Still, it's ffod for thought.
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LateReg
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby LateReg » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:51 am

Cappy wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:When Cooper is sitting with the Giant and suddenly vanishes, he does so in the same manner as Laura's body. Since her body's sudden disappearance from the shore seems to be a result of Cooper's attempt to rewrite history, does this mean that his disappearance stems from the same?

Immediately after stating that he understands, he must have resolved to carry out a particular action in the future. With that future event "now occurring", things change and Cooper does not end up sitting here at this moment, thus his sudden disappearance. This doesn't really provide any answers though, instead it just creates more questions.


Wow, I had never even thought about that -- the disappearing visual effect on Cooper during that scene is the same as the effect on Laura's corpse in ep. 17. There's also that weird sound (phonograph malfunctioning..?) that plays before Laura disappears in the woods, which is also mentioned by the Giant in ep. 1 ("listen to the sounds").

My guess is that Cooper went to the White Lodge (or "the Fireman's House") with Laura at the end of ep. 17. She was shot back at Earth as some golden orb (a process that might make most persons scream), and Cooper sort of just disappears as he has changed the past events that brought him here to begin with.

Although that would beg the question, how did Cooper know how to find the White Lodge, and what compelled him to ever bring Laura there in the first place? Maybe he absorbed the coordinates and other information from the destroyed Mr. C, but I can't help but wonder what the hell he was attempting to accomplish here (or in most of ep. 18 for that matter).


I've noted the similarities in the way people fade out before, such as when Mr. C flickers away as he ascends the stairs of the convenience store, or as Cooper flickers into view in the Fire Walk With Me footage. But for some reason I had never thought about the very obvious connections in that first scene and Laura's disappearance! The flicker-away effect, the "listen to the sounds" on the record player...that's really something, nice work!
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Robin Davies » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:00 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:I'll be watching with some new friends that happen to be diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics, and it will be their first viewing, so I anticipate much shared confusion.
Eh? If they're diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics why have they waited so long to see the series? :?
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:59 pm

Robin Davies wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:I'll be watching with some new friends that happen to be diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics, and it will be their first viewing, so I anticipate much shared confusion.
Eh? If they're diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics why have they waited so long to see the series? :?

The short answer is that for some, life gets busier and harder as the years go by and finding the time (and just as importantly the right space) to sit back and delve into an 18 part series at one's leisure, can be difficult.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby mtwentz » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:11 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:
Robin Davies wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:I'll be watching with some new friends that happen to be diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics, and it will be their first viewing, so I anticipate much shared confusion.
Eh? If they're diehard Lynch and Peaks fanatics why have they waited so long to see the series? :?

The short answer is that for some, life gets busier and harder as the years go by and finding the time (and just as importantly the right space) to sit back and delve into an 18 part series at one's leisure, can be difficult.


I hear ya. To be honest, since The Return, I haven't felt I have had the time to really delve into kuxh if anything. I don't even bother watching series anymore, I just watch movies.
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Re: Theories & Speculation

Postby Soolsma » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:13 pm

What do we make of this???


Not sure if posted here before. Do we hear Lynch directing?
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