Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

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The Brown Lodge
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by The Brown Lodge »

Well I don't know, but I'd love to see Hawk's doppelganger. Or even just Hawk in the lodge.
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counterpaul
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by counterpaul »

It's almost as if Hawk, in this scene, is acting as a guide for us (the audience) back into the Lodge. Like we have to be lead there. That seems correct to me.

My gut tells me that this is not a non-linear excursion. Hawk went out there the night before the "bunny" scene.

My gut also tells me, however, that we haven't heard the last of this. Margaret told him to "watch carefully" and he assured her that he would. He saw something out there, and I think we'll hear about it in due time.
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Panapaok
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by Panapaok »

Maybe they planned to shoot a scene with Hawk and Margaret but Catherine passed away before they were able to film it.
This is - excuse me - a damn fine cup of coffee.
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by Jasper »

Panapaok wrote:Maybe they planned to shoot a scene with Hawk and Margaret but Catherine passed away before they were able to film it.
I had this impression when she said that she was too weak to be out there with him. Real life and Twin Peaks converging perfectly and tragically. When Catherine Coulson died Lynch said that "She was the Log Lady". Her participation in The Return is the definition of bittersweet. My eyes got watery when she first appeared onscreen.
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by LurkerAtTheThreshold »

counterpaul wrote:It's almost as if Hawk, in this scene, is acting as a guide for us (the audience) back into the Lodge. Like we have to be lead there. That seems correct to me.

My gut tells me that this is not a non-linear excursion. Hawk went out there the night before the "bunny" scene.

My gut also tells me, however, that we haven't heard the last of this. Margaret told him to "watch carefully" and he assured her that he would. He saw something out there, and I think we'll hear about it in due time.


I agree with this. There is definitely something going on with these scenes. Permit me to ramble my thoughts;

People have speculated about alternate dimensions and time loops before. But what if ..... good and evil forces are acting simultaneously at manipulating the present time from the black lodge which we know 'Could offer up a power so vast the holder could reorder the world to his liking'

I think Frost and Lynch might be crafting in these early episodes, a world in which two sliding doors realities might exist side by side.

When Hawk says 'It's not about the bunnies' we know that this is a callback to the pilot episode of season one when Cooper was examining Laura Palmer's original diary and said 'Diane, I am holding in my hand a box of chocolate bunnies'. In the scene with Hawk, Lucy and Andy we can see the diary next to the shot of the bunnies. It's not about the bunnies, it's about the diary and Hawks heritage.

We know that Annie Blackburn appeared to Laura in a vision and said 'The good Dale is in the lodge and he can't leave, write it in your diary'. This creates our major time loop. If Hawk simply looks in the diary they will discover the truth that Agent Cooper is trapped in the lodge.

But what if Annie appearing to Laura isn't just a random event in the past. What if Annie Blackburn is actually part of the good forces combating the forces of the black lodge to change the future.

So maybe the scene with Hawk at gladstonbury grove is the result of the culmination of these good forces, but whilst that event seems destined to happen by the stars being right --all the other events surrounding it remain uncertain by the events being caused by negative forces of the black lodge, and thus explains the Dougie Jones alternate reality and situations with Mr C. Tangent universes are changing and can only be solidified by the events determined by these opposing forces of darkness and light.

Now, this may seem crazy, but what if the creators are trying to literally pull the show backwards from the finale back to where it came from in Twin Peaks. Where as the show ended in the black lodge, now the show is starting with lodge forces already out in the world from New York to Las Vegas.

Many have speculated that Mr C is not actually the soul of Bob, but the soul of Windom Earle inside Coopers doppelgänger, placed there by Bob. This explains the Bomzai tree inside the Billionaires manhattan apartment. It also explains the gruesome non sexually motivated murders, Mr C's strange laptop case and him being holed up in a hotel looking for co-ordinates and his obsession with playing cards ( The ace of spades). These are all Windom Earle tropes, not Bob tropes.

So if Windom Earle is playing his evil chess game with the cube in New York and Bob is a force inhabiting Las Vegas or South Dakota. This would make the final forces who anhilated Cooopers soul in the Season Two finale, kind of in reverse places to their power over Cooper in season two. Perhaps the good forces are starting to get their powers back - emanating from the white lodge, through Hawk and the sheriff station.

The black lodges power has grown immense, but maybe now it is shrinking and diminishing back to within the lodge

Maybe Hawk has already rescued Cooper from Gladstonbury grove but until surrounding events line up and good forces prevail the black clouds of confusion will keep hanging over everyone

No idea if that makes any sense or what I'm babbling about really
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Jasper wrote:
Panapaok wrote:Maybe they planned to shoot a scene with Hawk and Margaret but Catherine passed away before they were able to film it.
I had this impression when she said that she was too weak to be out there with him. Real life and Twin Peaks converging perfectly and tragically. When Catherine Coulson died Lynch said that "She was the Log Lady". Her participation in The Return is the definition of bittersweet. My eyes got watery when she first appeared onscreen.
She looked so much more herself on the interview for the Eraserhead Blu Ray Criterion released just a year before she passed. I was totally unprepared for how she looks here. Heartbreaking and fearless of her to return to the role. I'm tearing up just thinking about it.

I hope someday the script leaks and we're able to learm what L/F's original plans were for Log Lady. But as it stands, Hawk out at Glastonbury Grove talking to Margaret on a cell phone is for me the perfect beautiful embodiment of TP in the modern era.
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by Elad Repooc »

I think Hawk was trying to lead up to telling Truman about it, but then they got interrupted by other people. Also, let's not forget, Truman had just come back from a fishing trip. Perhaps the first conversation to have with your boss returning to work is not "I saw some red curtains magically appear in the woods". It's something you need to build up to, in private, and I think he was intending to do that but then Wally turned up and Bobby cried, so it kind of threw Hawk off.
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by claaa7 »

i don't think we've seen the last of Margaret yet... this scene in the woods feels extremely strange and out of sequence for me, it's almost like a vision from the future. from the dialouge about Hawk and The Log being on the same page of this night it would seem like Hawk is out in the middle of the woods at the deepest night searching for something because of something The Log told Margaret. hence this taking place after the message about "something's missing.. having to do with your herritage" being revealed, understood and led him to Glastonberry Grove.

wouldn't it be possible that when the Dougie business is finally solved and Cooper can reunite with his body and the real world (which i doubt he is right now) that he would be returned to Glastonberry Grove.

Considering her condition i'm sure Lynch filmed all of Catherine Coulson's scenes on the same day as quickly as possible but filming a scene with Hawk and her having coffee and pie at her home wouldn't be impossible.
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by Xavi »

Here are the lines from the transcript during Hawk's and Margaret's, the Log Lady, two phonecalls:
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:47,990
Deputy Hawk,
Margaret Lanterman's on line one.
It's the line with the
light that's blinking.
Okay, Lucy, thank you.
Margaret, what can I do for you?
Hawk.
My log has a message for you.
Okay.
Something is missing, and you have to find it.
It has to do with Special Agent Dale Cooper.

Dale Cooper? What is it?
The way you will find it...
has something to do with your heritage.

This is the message from the log.
Okay, Margaret.
Thank you.
Good night, Hawk.
00:45:00,981 --> 00:45:03,357
Good night, Margaret.



….


01:10:07,818 --> 01:10:10,028
Margaret?
Hawk.
Where are you walking tonight?
Once again, your log and
I are on the same page.

Supposed to be something
happening here tonight.
The stars turn...
and the time presents itself.
Hawk, watch carefully.
I will, Margaret.
I'm too weak to go with you.
But stop by.
I have coffee and pie for you.
Gonna have to be after.
I'm almost there now.
Please, let me know what happens.
I will, Margaret.
01:11:11,966 --> 01:11:14,260
Good night, Margaret.
Hmm, the only object that I can think of that also associates with Hawk's heritage is a tree. To be more specific a Sycamore Tree. Yet the log did not say that the missing object has to do with Hawk's heritage, albeit the way he will find it.
So it is still a possibility that he finds Lucy's eaten chocolate bunny.

Strange things happen, that's all I am sure of.
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by frompureair »

I'm thinking of the good ring/bad ring theory if there is a ring that will protect him from inhabiting lodge spirits then he would need it and I'll bet he other ring is missing and he will have to find it
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by dropkick23 »

LurkerAtTheThreshold wrote:
counterpaul wrote:It's almost as if Hawk, in this scene, is acting as a guide for us (the audience) back into the Lodge. Like we have to be lead there. That seems correct to me.

My gut tells me that this is not a non-linear excursion. Hawk went out there the night before the "bunny" scene.

My gut also tells me, however, that we haven't heard the last of this. Margaret told him to "watch carefully" and he assured her that he would. He saw something out there, and I think we'll hear about it in due time.


I agree with this. There is definitely something going on with these scenes. Permit me to ramble my thoughts;

People have speculated about alternate dimensions and time loops before. But what if ..... good and evil forces are acting simultaneously at manipulating the present time from the black lodge which we know 'Could offer up a power so vast the holder could reorder the world to his liking'

I think Frost and Lynch might be crafting in these early episodes, a world in which two sliding doors realities might exist side by side.

When Hawk says 'It's not about the bunnies' we know that this is a callback to the pilot episode of season one when Cooper was examining Laura Palmer's original diary and said 'Diane, I am holding in my hand a box of chocolate bunnies'. In the scene with Hawk, Lucy and Andy we can see the diary next to the shot of the bunnies. It's not about the bunnies, it's about the diary and Hawks heritage.

We know that Annie Blackburn appeared to Laura in a vision and said 'The good Dale is in the lodge and he can't leave, write it in your diary'. This creates our major time loop. If Hawk simply looks in the diary they will discover the truth that Agent Cooper is trapped in the lodge.

But what if Annie appearing to Laura isn't just a random event in the past. What if Annie Blackburn is actually part of the good forces combating the forces of the black lodge to change the future.

So maybe the scene with Hawk at gladstonbury grove is the result of the culmination of these good forces, but whilst that event seems destined to happen by the stars being right --all the other events surrounding it remain uncertain by the events being caused by negative forces of the black lodge, and thus explains the Dougie Jones alternate reality and situations with Mr C. Tangent universes are changing and can only be solidified by the events determined by these opposing forces of darkness and light.

Now, this may seem crazy, but what if the creators are trying to literally pull the show backwards from the finale back to where it came from in Twin Peaks. Where as the show ended in the black lodge, now the show is starting with lodge forces already out in the world from New York to Las Vegas.

Many have speculated that Mr C is not actually the soul of Bob, but the soul of Windom Earle inside Coopers doppelgänger, placed there by Bob. This explains the Bomzai tree inside the Billionaires manhattan apartment. It also explains the gruesome non sexually motivated murders, Mr C's strange laptop case and him being holed up in a hotel looking for co-ordinates and his obsession with playing cards ( The ace of spades). These are all Windom Earle tropes, not Bob tropes.

So if Windom Earle is playing his evil chess game with the cube in New York and Bob is a force inhabiting Las Vegas or South Dakota. This would make the final forces who anhilated Cooopers soul in the Season Two finale, kind of in reverse places to their power over Cooper in season two. Perhaps the good forces are starting to get their powers back - emanating from the white lodge, through Hawk and the sheriff station.

The black lodges power has grown immense, but maybe now it is shrinking and diminishing back to within the lodge

Maybe Hawk has already rescued Cooper from Gladstonbury grove but until surrounding events line up and good forces prevail the black clouds of confusion will keep hanging over everyone

No idea if that makes any sense or what I'm babbling about really
Lot of good stuff here.

Earle's soul in Cooper's doppleganger seems like a sure bet...Also parallel/alternative timelines that possibly loop back to earlier points in the stories (which might explain why Garland has been dead for 25 years but also seems to be involved in 'current' storylines...the corpse and his name mentioned in Evil Cooper's conversation at the motel).
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by sylvia_north »

claaa7 wrote:i don't think we've seen the last of Margaret yet... this scene in the woods feels extremely strange and out of sequence for me, it's almost like a vision from the future. from the dialouge about Hawk and The Log being on the same page of this night it would seem like Hawk is out in the middle of the woods at the deepest night searching for something because of something The Log told Margaret. hence this taking place after the message about "something's missing.. having to do with your herritage" being revealed, understood and led him to Glastonberry Grove.

wouldn't it be possible that when the Dougie business is finally solved and Cooper can reunite with his body and the real world (which i doubt he is right now) that he would be returned to Glastonberry Grove.
I read the line about being on the same page as an affirmation of the log's concern over the somewhere Hawk was walking in the woods, and she was calling out of concern.
Hawk returns

I agree we can't be certain Harry or Hawk saw or just sensed the curtains. The shifting wind that moves the curtains is for us. DKL gives the direction "you feel a wind" to his cast. He wants *us* to see/hear/feel this wind move his actors, or through some bare trees, as a meaningful cue.

Cooper's body *was* returned to Glastonberry, though. Then delivered to the Great Northern, under the possession of Mr C.
Dougie fulfills the purpose of Cooper having a place to return to in the material world, if either the multiverse but especially the time paradox theories- or both- are accurate-because Cooper would maybe somehow know that maybe this version of himself, someone who had made different choices, was going to die.

***As a digression that I'll take to another thread, the time paradox theory was my instinctive takeaway from Beyond Life and Death on my first viewing 20+ years ago from what Leland says about not killing anybody. Now that he is saying "find Laura," the time paradox is especially intriguing. (Laura knew she'd see Cooper again in 25 years, after all.) Has Mr C been trying to kill Dougie all along to prevent Cooper having a life to slip into? Did anyone else see Timecrimes dir Nacho Vigilando and/or Triangle dir Christopher Smith (starring Mulholland Dr's Melissa George? There are a lot of killing of doubles.***
Elad Repooc wrote:I think Hawk was trying to lead up to telling Truman about it, but then they got interrupted by other people. Also, let's not forget, Truman had just come back from a fishing trip. Perhaps the first conversation to have with your boss returning to work is not "I saw some red curtains magically appear in the woods". It's something you need to build up to, in private, and I think he was intending to do that but then Wally turned up and Bobby cried, so it kind of threw Hawk off.
Ugh, freaking Wally.
Too Old to Die Young > TP S03
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Re: Hawk at Glastonberry Grove? (SPOILERS)

Post by kafa81 »

Here is my take...and I may be grasping at straws but I don't care :D

The 2nd time we see Hawk walking through the forest at night the Log Lady calls him etc....
Hawk then sees the curtains above the pool of oil and the sycamore trees...
At that point the white light flashes, and we are in the Lodge! We see the red curtains....and the empty chairs...The first time I saw this I thought Hawk entered the Lodge, and this was his POV... :?: :?:

After that, Cooper appears, as does Philip Gerard..the first thing Philip says is: is it future or is it past.... and then he says someone is here...and then vanishes, which in my opinion shows that time isn't flowing linearly .... maybe he means Hawks is the someone that is there, and not Laura....because he says it at one point in time, then vanishes, which shows that time is acting strangely or that time is jumping around, and then Laura shows up to make us think that is what Philip Gerard meant.
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