The Random Season 3 Thread

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Jasper
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jasper » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:50 pm

I think that we have to see Ray's comments in the context of him being marginalized in the Return. He was one of the most outspoken people about the possibility of the show returning, and he even reported a comment that Lynch made to him about figuring out a way to bring Leland back, were Twin Peaks to return. I think Ray Wise had fairly realistic expectations that he'd have a more significant role in any revival. The final product was 18 hours (or at least 18 parts), and his screen time must not add up to more than a minute. Lynch and Frost figured out a way around the absence of MJA, and they did so more or less at the last moment. Lynch also rewrote and expanded Sherilyn Fenn's part in the eleventh hour.

It must have really hurt to receive a script with two words.

I don't have any reason to believe that there will be more Twin Peaks, but Leland is such a complex character that exploring his situation in the underworld, or spirit world, or purgatory, or wherever he is, could be fascinating, even as a minor side plot.

It's almost as though Lynch and Frost punished Wise for spilling the beans about the Return, or didn't trust him to keep the plot secret if he had a bigger part. While this might sound silly, and probably isn't true, his blink-and-miss-it appearance really was quite surprising. Did anyone expect Wise to have such an extremely minor role?
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby LateReg » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:48 pm

I also think Ray's comments are largely a result of him being marginalized, and I think that's a shame since he was such a vocal supporter of the series' return for so long. Hopefully he can find peace with it.

As far as his comments about it being "easy" on Showtime, I took that to mean that it's easier to have that kind of freedom to create and even change up the script, as opposed to somewhere like ABC, where there are more rules, especially in 1990.

All that said...I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the portion of the interview where Ray talks about his suggestion for a Leonard Palmer, a brother of Leland who would come to town to get the truth about what really happened with Leland. It seems as though he would have offered that idea up to Lynch, and given Ray's enthusiasm, possibly brought it up more than once and then felt dissatisfied that after years of being such a big supporter, that Lynch would not take his creative input. At any rate, the idea is pretty much awful, and imo a misinterpretation of Lynch's interest in doubles; at the very least Ray's idea is the exact kind of thing that does NOT fit in to The Return's method of 25 years later storytelling (Leonard Palmer just finally decides to come to town 25 years later?), the exact type of forced storyline The Return purposefully avoided. At best, it feels very 90s, very Season 2, and that's simply not what The Return was.

Regarding Peggy Lipton, I recall in an early interview regarding The Return that she basically said that things in the show are still pretty much the same, or something along those lines. I always (wrongly?) read into that that she wasn't exactly into the weird, progressive art of it all, but then again, how would she even know anything beyond her own scenes, which were indeed mostly business as usual? I hadn't seen any further comments from her as The Return aired that would have clarified her thoughts, but maybe I missed them. It would be interesting to know if she liked it yet still disliked FWWM.

It seems that a lot of actors were disgruntled at certain sections of Twin Peaks in all its incarnations, and it usually has to do less with the quality of the show/film but rather their involvement within it; I seem to notice this kind of dissatisfaction with Twin Peaks more than most series. Perhaps its because a lot of the actors see Twin Peaks as their most vital project, and become hurt when they aren't featured or Lynch takes it in an unexpected direction that would seem to betray what they thought they were signing up for. Sherilyn Fenn, Julee Cruise, possibly Ray Wise, etc. have all expressed dissatisfaction within the past couple years and in each case it seems to have stemmed from their own role in the thing rather than the big picture.

Edited to add: And yes, I was beyond surprised at the time to find that Ray was in it for only two short scenes, but my oh my does it feel right.
Last edited by LateReg on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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yaxomoxay
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby yaxomoxay » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:32 am

Jasper wrote:I think that we have to see Ray's comments in the context of him being marginalized in the Return. He was one of the most outspoken people about the possibility of the show returning, and he even reported a comment that Lynch made to him about figuring out a way to bring Leland back, were Twin Peaks to return. I think Ray Wise had fairly realistic expectations that he'd have a more significant role in any revival. The final product was 18 hours (or at least 18 parts), and his screen time must not add up to more than a minute. Lynch and Frost figured out a way around the absence of MJA, and they did so more or less at the last moment. Lynch also rewrote and expanded Sherilyn Fenn's part in the eleventh hour.

It must have really hurt to receive a script with two words.

I don't have any reason to believe that there will be more Twin Peaks, but Leland is such a complex character that exploring his situation in the underworld, or spirit world, or purgatory, or wherever he is, could be fascinating, even as a minor side plot.

It's almost as though Lynch and Frost punished Wise for spilling the beans about the Return, or didn't trust him to keep the plot secret if he had a bigger part. While this might sound silly, and probably isn't true, his blink-and-miss-it appearance really was quite surprising. Did anyone expect Wise to have such an extremely minor role?


Among the actors, I don't think that Ray has much right to complain. His character, and the study of his character, is at the center of a full movie. FWWM is Laura's journey to darkness and death as much as it's Leland's journey. Honestly I think that seeing him in the Lodge talking backwards for more than necessary would've felt as forced as possible.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby AXX°N N. » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:55 am

Jasper wrote:It's almost as though Lynch and Frost punished Wise for spilling the beans about the Return, or didn't trust him to keep the plot secret if he had a bigger part. While this might sound silly, and probably isn't true, his blink-and-miss-it appearance really was quite surprising. Did anyone expect Wise to have such an extremely minor role?

Anything's possible, but personally this reads as a pessimistic take. Sometimes when you're working on a narrative, you might start out with certain expectations and desires, but things can quickly dictate otherwise--to an extant, the old writer's cliche of 'the book writes itself' is true, and sometimes things you wish would work simply can't, no matter how hard you try. Lynch clearly likes to feature actors he likes, but he's said before that it sometimes 'doesn't work out,' that unless the perfect part comes along that requires said actor, unfortunately it's not in the cards. Imo if you put actors into movies just because you want to use them, it's prioritizing away from the script for the worse.

Like yaxomoxay said, Leland already had a huge focus in FWWM. If I myself were tasked with bringing the character back, I don't think I could think of anything decent.

LateReg wrote:Regarding Peggy Lipton, I recall in an early interview regarding The Return that she basically said that things in the show are still pretty much the same, or something along those lines. I always (wrongly?) read into that that she wasn't exactly into the weird, progressive art of it all, but then again, how would she even know anything beyond her own scenes, which were indeed mostly business as usual? I hadn't seen any further comments from her as The Return aired that would have clarified her thoughts, but maybe I missed them. It would be interesting to know if she liked it yet still disliked FWWM.

It was in the EW photoshoot video. She said:
"25 years later, back in the same space, some things have changed, but a lot--I mean, I don't want to give it away-- but a lot hasn't changed, a lot is still staying the way it was, still I think the way fans would like it. They don't want it all over the place, I don't think. It's like take me back to where we left off."

In addition to the photoshoot featuring the cast as very, very much in the manner of their old characterizations, for instance Sheryl had long hair in her black lodge outfit, Peggy's comments put into my head an impression that set my expectations for almost a year, and had me imagining a completely different show than what we got. :o And yeah, afterwards I went through the same mental hoops--was she speaking from only what she knew of her role, which was in fact very steeped in the reality of the diner, and was she as beguiled as everyone else with all the stuff outside the RR?


As for Fenn, do you mean the fact she had the role rewritten, or has some other drama occured I'm not aware of?
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby bosguy1981 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:53 am

Sorry I don't remember which thread it was posted in, but one of the Season 3 "insiders" who posted a lot of seemingly reliable info during filming returned to the forum sometime last year and dished some more info. Up to you if you believe it but one of the few things I recall off the top of my head that he shared was that Ray Wise was initially given the indication he'd be in many scenes and I think even that they discussed those proposed scenes with him. But when he arrived to shoot, they just suddenly said, "Here's your one line," and that was that. No explanation or anything for the change.

If that info is true, it could go a long way to showing why Ray is annoyed about Season 3. Not only did he have a shockingly tiny sort of cameo, but that came after being told it would be something bigger and better.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:43 am

bosguy1981 wrote:Sorry I don't remember which thread it was posted in, but one of the Season 3 "insiders" who posted a lot of seemingly reliable info during filming returned to the forum sometime last year and dished some more info. Up to you if you believe it but one of the few things I recall off the top of my head that he shared was that Ray Wise was initially given the indication he'd be in many scenes and I think even that they discussed those proposed scenes with him. But when he arrived to shoot, they just suddenly said, "Here's your one line," and that was that. No explanation or anything for the change.

If that info is true, it could go a long way to showing why Ray is annoyed about Season 3. Not only did he have a shockingly tiny sort of cameo, but that came after being told it would be something bigger and better.


I think that was Mordeen, who had a lot of accurate info, but also admitted that he was fed fake info which he initially adamantly stood by (most notably, that there would be surprise returns who were not part of the announced cast list). Wise is apparently a friend of Mordeen’s parents, but Mordeen said he never spoke to Wise about TR directly, but rather heard from one of his sources that Wise was “sold a bill of goods.”

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4009&hilit=Wise&start=15#p118863

There’s all sorts of conflicting hearsay in that thread, with Mordeen insisting that Lynch was entirely to blame for Leland/Wise’s reduced role, while vicksvapor77 recounts Wise blaming Frost for the reduced role at a convention. I think the one thing that is clear after this latest interview is that Wise has a little bit of a bad taste about TR, but still seems very invigorated by the franchise’s past and still talks highly of Lynch as an artist/collaborator. As others have noted, many cast TP members have gone through varying degrees of public disillusionment over the years, and everyone (except LFB) has come back into the fold.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jerry Horne » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:04 am

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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jerry Horne » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:09 am

Some things I've heard from a crew member about Peggy Lipton during the OS and FWWM. She hated the shoes that Lynch made her wear. They caused her great pain and she pleaded for something more comfortable. Lynch said no he liked the shoes. During the FWWM shoot she had an unheated trailer and said the whole production was cheap and had to raise Hell.

Ray deserved more. There are weird random people at the Roadhouse that had more dialog.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:07 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:Ray deserved more. There are weird random people at the Roadhouse that had more dialog.

Yeah, I have to say, I still don't enjoy those scenes. Maybe they need to age for a while, maybe I'm just not in the right frame of mind for them, but that time could have been used for something else. I don't have anything against visiting The Roadhouse and seeing what the local bands and regulars are up to, but this terrible music, and these boring people, are not exactly inspiring. They just make me depressed.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby yaxomoxay » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:19 pm

Jerry Horne wrote:Some things I've heard from a crew member about Peggy Lipton during the OS and FWWM. She hated the shoes that Lynch made her wear. They caused her great pain and she pleaded for something more comfortable. Lynch said no he liked the shoes. During the FWWM shoot she had an unheated trailer and said the whole production was cheap and had to raise Hell.

Ray deserved more. There are weird random people at the Roadhouse that had more dialog.


I think that the question is, what is more? Personally, I like the mystery behind Leland's short appearance. His only sentence, said twice, is incredibly powerful and mysterious. Again, he also had basically a full movie, and he's also quite relevant in the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer if you want to consider it. Let's face it the obvious, Leland's character died the moment that he was revealed as Laura's killer (and then the character himself died). Other than that, there's not much to tell about him. Yes, he can appear laughing in some Black Lodge scenes, but to what purpose? Because he's Leland? In retrospective, all of S1, part of S2, and FWWM are all about him. He was the catalyst of everything by killing Theresa first and Laura later. There is nothing else to say about him, his Greek tragedy has been already told and quite masterfully if you ask me.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby LateReg » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:00 pm

AXX°N N. wrote:As for Fenn, do you mean the fact she had the role rewritten, or has some other drama occured I'm not aware of?


I'm only talking about the negative stuff that was on Twitter in the build-up, which may have stemmed from her role, but certainly stemmed from something behind the scenes. I believe she was interviewed here and there afterwards and gave some jovial banter, and the way she and Lynch play off one another in the behind the scenes footage is wonderful and good natured.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby mtwentz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:02 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:Some things I've heard from a crew member about Peggy Lipton during the OS and FWWM. She hated the shoes that Lynch made her wear. They caused her great pain and she pleaded for something more comfortable. Lynch said no he liked the shoes. During the FWWM shoot she had an unheated trailer and said the whole production was cheap and had to raise Hell.

Ray deserved more. There are weird random people at the Roadhouse that had more dialog.


I think that the question is, what is more? Personally, I like the mystery behind Leland's short appearance. His only sentence, said twice, is incredibly powerful and mysterious. Again, he also had basically a full movie, and he's also quite relevant in the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer if you want to consider it. Let's face it the obvious, Leland's character died the moment that he was revealed as Laura's killer (and then the character himself died). Other than that, there's not much to tell about him. Yes, he can appear laughing in some Black Lodge scenes, but to what purpose? Because he's Leland? In retrospective, all of S1, part of S2, and FWWM are all about him. He was the catalyst of everything by killing Theresa first and Laura later. There is nothing else to say about him, his Greek tragedy has been already told and quite masterfully if you ask me.


I feel confident that if Lynch and Frost had more to say about the character, they would have written a larger role for Ray.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby Jerry Horne » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:12 pm

I credit Ray for not disrupting the production by making a big stink about his role. Then again, he is a professional.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby LateReg » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Mr. Strawberry wrote:
Jerry Horne wrote:Ray deserved more. There are weird random people at the Roadhouse that had more dialog.

Yeah, I have to say, I still don't enjoy those scenes. Maybe they need to age for a while, maybe I'm just not in the right frame of mind for them, but that time could have been used for something else. I don't have anything against visiting The Roadhouse and seeing what the local bands and regulars are up to, but this terrible music, and these boring people, are not exactly inspiring. They just make me depressed.


That's too bad. I love all of those scenes so much. Those in Parts 9, 12, 14 and 15 - which tie into key moments in the Roadhouse near the end of 13 and 16, and somehow mirror many other moments in ways that I'm unable to fully decipher - are all highlights for me. Mr. Reindeer and I have talked numerous times about how - from the acting, mystery, atmosphere, and dialogue - those seemingly random scenes rank among the best in The Return, and would be hailed as brilliant scenes for all those reasons in any other project, and impeccable standalone scenes no matter how you cut it. In The Return, some people grew weary of them, but I think they feel vital and alive, simultaneously dreamlike and realistic, and are a huge key to the entire thing. Not just because of the meaning of the mysterious dialogue, but because it fulfills one of the most important ambitions of The Return: to give the illusion of life going on beyond the frame, both before, during and after the series.

As far as the music itself, I've always been surprised that anyone would think it's actually terrible. I think that it's all at the very least pretty good, and in context - lyrics and atmosphere poignantly echoing/summing up the key themes and moods of The Return - is mostly excellent. That feeling that I got every time we visited the Roadhouse, especially in scenes in which I'd dread the eventual credits roll, left me in such an indescribably perplexed, helpless and moody state akin to the way Cooper seems to feel in episode 14 as Maddy is being murdered. When cryptic dialogue would lead into or be surrounded by song, I was particularly affected.

(Not that this truly matters since it just comes down to one's taste, but as far as it does matter the music is not "considered" to be terrible as the soundtrack itself scored positive reviews from major outlets like Pitchfork (7.5), Consequence of Sound (B+), etc. Regardless, music in film has a way of sounding better when accompanied by an image/story/mood, and that's why I'm surprised people don't like it within The Return, as it truly excels for me much in the same way that the music in, say, Once or Sing Street sounds A+ when you're watching the movie, but drops a whole letter grade and only deserves a B+ when you're listening to it as an album. It's all about the atmosphere/themes, and I think the songs/bands chosen provided subtler tones that weren't exactly like Julee Cruise/the original series, but were extensions of the same ideas and applied to what we were seeing onscreen while enhancing/altering/revealing the mood in unexpected ways.)

Unrelated, I agree with yaxomoxay's well-thought reasoning about Leland. I was as shocked as anyone that he wasn't in it more, but his appearances were perfect and even proved pivotal. Less is more, and nothing was forced.
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Re: The Random Season 3 Thread

Postby AXX°N N. » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:12 pm

I have to throw my hat into the pile of loving the Roadhouse scenes. They feel very in line stylistically with IE, which has long been my favorite Lynch project. Without them S3 wouldn't have the fragmented mileu that it does.
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