Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
Cappy
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:27 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Cappy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:49 pm

Didn't Secret History have Lana marrying some hedge fund guy and relocating to New York? I doubt this ties into the shadowy billionaire that is financing the glass box experiment, but it is something to think about.
User avatar
N. Needleman
Posts: 1887
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby N. Needleman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:15 pm

Agent Earle wrote:Those are not "hot takes" per se, more like quite reasonable and legitimate concerns. Unless you categorize any opinion that questions a creator's decision regarding his creation as a "hot take".


I was talking about what would be a gender critique re: erasing the Annie character's agency, but thanks for showing the flag.
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.
User avatar
sylvia_north
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:15 am

Cappy wrote:Didn't Secret History have Lana marrying some hedge fund guy and relocating to New York? I doubt this ties into the shadowy billionaire that is financing the glass box experiment, but it is something to think about.


There was also the untraceable account in the Caymans that funded the Blue Pine Mountain operation, money promised by Nixon that came in long after his resignation, and the redacted name that was with Mr President and Milford that saw the alien thing three stories underground in the hangar hiding the converted bunker.

The metal shaped into the triangle with wings thing he described is related to the rites to summon a homonculus/golem, I guess Parsons was up to some of that, and he ended up with a "fire demon" in the end?

from r/twinpeaks the_stoned_ape

"Also interesting is the 'Homunculus' and the fact that many mystic writings required that it be 'grown in a glass vessel'. (Much like our weird glass box)

Some people argue that in Parsons quest to create a Moonchild he in fact created a Homunculus."


http://www.digitalmontauk.com/?p=573

(It just occurred to me that Dougie could be a kind of golem, too)
LFB > S3 < green tea latte Frank
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2129
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:37 am

sylvia_north wrote:There was also the untraceable account in the Caymans that funded the Blue Pine Mountain operation, money promised by Nixon that came in long after his resignation, and the redacted name that was with Mr President and Milford that saw the alien thing three stories underground in the hangar hiding the converted bunker.


Mr. Redacted was the late Jackie Gleason.

With Nixon long dead, Dougie dead and Briggs seemingly killed without naming a successor, I wonder who would be in control of that Cayman Islands account. Mr. C is the only person who might know about it, if Garland went into that level of detail at their final meeting. Or maybe Betty found documentation and is the mysterious billionaire (while posing as an unassuming school secretary?). I would kind of love that!
User avatar
Cappy
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:27 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Cappy » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:06 pm

So many interesting details from Secret History that seem to link up with what is happening in the new series.

Aside from Annie's non-existence ("non-exis-tent"), the other really strange thing from Secret History was Dr. Jacoby's brother with the wildly inconsistent personal timeline, what with two deaths and all. I think the book mentioned he was cremated, but i can't help but think that Jacoby's weird shovel painting ritual is somehow tied to his brother. But if he is not digging his brother up, then I don't know what need he has for all those shovels...
MaiTaiRob
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:17 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby MaiTaiRob » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:45 pm

Remember that the very first thing Norma says about Annie is that "when she was little I always used to think Annie was from another place and time."

R
Leacock
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 7:47 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Leacock » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:01 pm

Cappy wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:Personally, I hope Annie was real, but as long as she gets agency I'm good. For example: she was made to guide Coop to the Lodge, but her FWWM message is her acting against that 'programming' out of her own free will.


Yeah, that's kind of what my thinking is too. She was somehow able to assert her own free will and help Cooper and Laura.


The tulpas seem to have some agency - Dougie was very weirded out by what was happening to him for instance.
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:30 pm

I've missed it, but I'm sure it's been mentioned here or elsewhere that the glaring discrepancy in Frost's book regarding Norma's mother must be related to the conspicuous absence of Annie.
User avatar
dreamshake
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby dreamshake » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:38 pm

In episode 27 there's a pull-back during a scene between Coop and Annie in the RR that's always struck me as really ominous, especially given the dialogue. Cooper tells her he's distracted by their romance when he needs to be focused on the Earle investigation. The scene ends with Coop knocking over his plate and a close-up of the broken dishes on the floor with maple syrup that looks a lot like motor oil spilling out of a coffee cup. With that scene, along with a lot of previously mentioned examples it's hard for me not to view the Giant's warning later in the episode as one about Annie.
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:58 pm

dreamshake wrote:In episode 27 there's a pull-back during a scene between Coop and Annie in the RR that's always struck me as really ominous, especially given the dialogue. Cooper tells her he's distracted by their romance when he needs to be focused on the Earle investigation. The scene ends with Coop knocking over his plate and a close-up of the broken dishes on the floor with maple syrup that looks a lot like motor oil spilling out of a coffee cup. With that scene, along with a lot of previously mentioned examples it's hard for me not to view the Giant's warning later in the episode as one about Annie.


I love that shot. I always took the falling dishes and ominous dripping syrup to be related to Coop getting blinded by love, especially, as you say, given the dialogue.

As for the giant's warning, I took it to be about getting distracted by love again (as happened with Caroline), as well as Annie being in the Miss Twin Peaks contest. These things more or less led to Annie and Cooper ending up in the lodge.

I don't feel it was the intent of the writers for Annie to be some kind of ghostly supernatural lure, but if that's the way they want to retcon it in The Return, it could be very intriguing, so long as they really sell it. After all, I think they're selling the "I'll see you again in 25 years" angle, even though this clearly wasn't the original motivation behind that dialogue.
Last edited by Jasper on Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2129
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:00 pm

I'm pretty sure that's coffee dripping in excruitiatingly slow motion, not syrup. You can see it in a long shot, as I recall. This is echoed by the solid/liquid/viscous coffee in Episode 29 (DKL possibly taking a cue from Gyllenhaal? -- and implying some Black Lodge correlation to that scene).
User avatar
Jasper
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Jasper » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:37 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I'm pretty sure that's coffee dripping in excruitiatingly slow motion, not syrup. You can see it in a long shot, as I recall. This is echoed by the solid/liquid/viscous coffee in Episode 29 (DKL possibly taking a cue from Gyllenhaal? -- and implying some Black Lodge correlation to that scene).


syrup.gif
syrup.gif (497.33 KiB) Viewed 2866 times


This has come up a couple of times before. The viscous behavior of the substance used in the shot indicates that it's syrup (rather than slow-motion coffee), but it's an open question as to whether or not it was intended to look like coffee. (Very likely, since it's a Twin Peaks totem, and seems to be coming from a coffee cup, though I wish they'd made it darker in the super-close shot for the purpose of identification.)

Image

Indeed, it is very much like the oily coffee in episode 29. I doubt we'll ever know if Lynch was inspired by the diner shot.

Image

This is an interesting video about that lodge coffee. Stick with it, as I recall that it becomes more convincing as goes:

User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 2129
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 11:42 pm

I think in the wide shot, it's pretty explicitly coffee. Gyllenhaal may have chosen to use syrup in the close-up because even a slowed-down coffee drip didn't achieve the effect he wanted. But I don't think there's much doubt that -- whatever the actual real-world on-set substance might have been -- the intent was to show slow-dripping coffee.
User avatar
CuriousWoman
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:55 am
Location: Deep within the color red

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby CuriousWoman » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:37 am

I think the whole Annie situation may originate from a fan-theory Mark Frost heard at some point.

The idea of Annie being much more than she seems is not new. Here is a 1996 post by Harley Peyton about Annie being from the Lodge or not (I put the most relevent section in italic. Retrieved from here https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... lPRU0hFSO0 where it was already a repost but the original source website has disappeared IIRC, so I have no idea who or what wayne/bazza are talking about nor what Barry Pullman wrote):

HP wrote:Annie's disposition was an issue that we would have addressed in the
eventuality of a third season. This is how we tended to handle a lot of plot
cliffhangers -- set them up, figure them out later. It's not necessarily the
best way to shape a narrative, but given the chaotic state of the creative
process -- David's sudden entrances and exits, Mark Frost's desire to direct
a movie at that point in time -- it was the best we could do.

As for the Wayne/Bazza exchange...

First of all, I don't think 'Barry' had anything to do with the show.
Whenever long term discussions were held about the narrative, the only
people present were Mark Frost and myself. Then Mark would run the ideas by
David. David would add his own ideas. And we would use what we could from
what resulted. Barry's opinions are entertaining, a kind of informed
speculation. But they are also mostly wrong.

First, Cooper was never to be the 'true villain' of the show. Nor was Bob
trying to get to him from the very start. And at any rate, the way we wrote
-- we made it up as we went along -- made it impossible to ever project that
far into the narrative future. Cooper looks in the mirror and sees Bob --
it's a dramatic moment, and one that was decided on in the last weeks of
production. Barry's theory is therefore hindsight, and as I said before,
incorrect.

The notion that evil follows Cooper is not completely erroneous. And by
falling for Annie he did in fact place her in jeopardy. However, Cooper love
for Annie did not give him purity he did not already have. It did, however,
give him a second chance.

The speculation about Annie is interesting, but again, incorrect. Sad to
say, Annie was -- at least when the character was initially conceived -- a
damsel in distress. And not a great deal more than that. However, had the
show continued, we might have deepened her connections/past/significance,
etc. And she might well have become an Agent from the White Lodge -- it's a
very good idea. But as it stood, and given that we never had that third
season to continue, she was out of neither the Black nor the White Lodge.


The last paragraph is absolutely spot on. Once we made or wrote something,
it was out of our hands. And the incredible amount of speculation that
followed was -- and is -- in my opinion, every bit as valid as what appeared
on the screen. And let me reiterate one point, the writers were often
speculating right along with the audience, and in this way, many of the
characters evolved into more complex creations. And sometimes, it just
seemed to blossom out of nothing. We would take character names from movies
we liked, join them together, and others would take those names as some kind
of sign. And would then speculate and ruminate on the various implied
meanings. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But most of the time...
User avatar
TheGum
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 9:26 am

Re: Annie Speculation (SPOILERS)

Postby TheGum » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:08 pm

Cappy wrote:I'd also like to add this to the evidence pile:

- The Giant warning Cooper, right before he kisses Annie. It's assumed he's generally warning Coop about Windom and the Lodge, but I think it's significant that he appears to Coop just before he and Annie lock lips.



I always took that to be more of a warning about her entering Miss Twin Peaks. When you consider the future/past/lack of linear time in the black lodge, this would seem to fit. And it's exactly how Coop ends up in the lodge.

That coffee theory is super cool...maybe the Giant is aware that Cooper is not ready to face BOB in the lodge and knows the contest is the lure. How much was Earle manipulated to serve the purpose of luring Cooper. All fun questions.
I'm back in style!

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return (Spoilers)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: freddy81 and 16 guests