General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:54 pm

Rudagger wrote:
IcedOver wrote: even if the show turns out to be an artistic failure overall (as is looking likely)


Uh, what? Not even being a Twin Peaks fanboy, but, the reviews have been pretty overwhelmingly positive.


I've noticed in fandoms there often tend to be a vocal minority of fans who dislike something and solipsistically view their own opinion as somehow the objective truth.

Foucault called that the fascist urge in us all.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:37 am

IcedOver wrote: even if the show turns out to be an artistic failure overall (as is looking likely)
How exactly is it likely, lol? The majority of the audiences' and critics' reactions are overwhelmingly positive. You might consider it a failure but this doesn't make your opinion an objective fact. The show might end up being a commercial failure based on the money they've spent, although even this is doubtful since they're making bank through the various long-term licensing deals they've signed all around the world. They also seem pretty happy with the streaming numbers and subscriptions. And I bet that Twin Peaks is by far their most successful show merchandise-wise.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:42 am

Holy fuck, it's my own opinion that it's likely to be an artistic failure. I didn't say it was anybody else's. Damn, superfans are so defensive when something they cherish is criticized. The thread says "all opinions welcome." I'm saying that even though I believe it's an artistic failure (so far, and likely to continue), I hope that Showtime is getting a good return on its investment.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby douglasb » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:55 am

Foucault though!
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:01 am

IcedOver wrote:Holy fuck, it's my own opinion that it's likely to be an artistic failure. I didn't say it was anybody else's. Damn, superfans are so defensive when something they cherish is criticized. The thread says "all opinions welcome." I'm saying that even though I believe it's an artistic failure (so far, and likely to continue), I hope that Showtime is getting a good return on its investment.


No you didn't say you 'believed it was an artistic failure', you said it is likely to be an artistic failure, as if that were the consensus.

At this point, the closest we would have to objectivity in the realm of artistic success or failure would be the reactions of the bulk of critics and other artists. I think the evidence shows that the new Twin Peaks has been an artistic success so far, but of course we have to wait until all 18 parts are aired before we could rule on it one way or another.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby IcedOver » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:25 am

mtwentz wrote:
No you didn't say you 'believed it was an artistic failure', you said it is likely to be an artistic failure, as if that were the consensus. At this point, the closest we would have to objectivity in the realm of artistic success or failure would be the reactions of the bulk of critics and other artists. I think the evidence shows that the new Twin Peaks has been an artistic success so far, but of course we have to wait until all 18 parts are aired before we could rule on it one way or another.


I don't have to say "I believe" before something when if it's coming out of my keyboard, that's implied.

I don't put much weight into what critics say any longer, or awards recognition. What they deem good or bad isn't going to affect my opinion. Some of the worst movies ever made have been praised and won awards.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:10 am

IcedOver wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
No you didn't say you 'believed it was an artistic failure', you said it is likely to be an artistic failure, as if that were the consensus. At this point, the closest we would have to objectivity in the realm of artistic success or failure would be the reactions of the bulk of critics and other artists. I think the evidence shows that the new Twin Peaks has been an artistic success so far, but of course we have to wait until all 18 parts are aired before we could rule on it one way or another.


I don't have to say "I believe" before something when if it's coming out of my keyboard, that's implied.

I don't put much weight into what critics say any longer, or awards recognition. What they deem good or bad isn't going to affect my opinion. Some of the worst movies ever made have been praised and won awards.


Nobody is saying you have to say anything.

But when you declare something is an artistic failure, most people would read it to mean you are implying this was a generally agreed upon truth. When you preface it with, 'in my opinion', it becomes clearer you speak only for yourself.

And fine if you personally don't put weight into the critics, but if one were looking for an objective standard as to whether a piece of art is worthy or not, the scores of audiences and critics and awards organizations are the best that we've got, imperfect as though they all are. So I would not discount either one completely. Over time, though, opinions can change. Really great films sometimes are not recognized until years later. And films people thought were the greatest ever sometimes get downgraded over time. "Gone With The Wind" would be a good example of the latter.

Right now, I would be guardedly optimistic about Twin Peaks: The Return being seen as an artistic success in the eyes of the critics. Since Twin Peaks really is art house cinema put on cable, it's difficult to know how we should measure the audience reaction. I would not expect it to to The Walking Dead. From what we know about Twin Peaks in the past, the better metric is whether it has satisfied its core audience. On that measure, I would say the answer is emphatically yes, although there are about 10-20% who have not yet taken to the new series.

As far as awards go, we shall see. On that front, if Twin Peaks gets a few nominations, that would be success enough. But Twin Peaks is not eligible this year so I am not sure Showtime was even aiming for it to get awards.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:23 am

IcedOver wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
No you didn't say you 'believed it was an artistic failure', you said it is likely to be an artistic failure, as if that were the consensus. At this point, the closest we would have to objectivity in the realm of artistic success or failure would be the reactions of the bulk of critics and other artists. I think the evidence shows that the new Twin Peaks has been an artistic success so far, but of course we have to wait until all 18 parts are aired before we could rule on it one way or another.


I don't have to say "I believe" before something when if it's coming out of my keyboard, that's implied.

I don't put much weight into what critics say any longer, or awards recognition. What they deem good or bad isn't going to affect my opinion. Some of the worst movies ever made have been praised and won awards.


It seemed like you were trying to measure the success of the show on various levels not related to your personal opinion. I made that clear in my first reply to you, and mtwentz has as well. Nobody's criticizing you, and us pointing out the likely artistic success of the show as measured in the eyes of critics doesn't make us superfans. I was just pointing out a fact based on how your post read. I now understand you were stating a personal opinion on the show's quality, but before it did seem like you were trying gauge its artistic success in terms of whether Showtime would be happy with it and if their gamble giving Lynch complete control paid off.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:28 am

Other than maybe The Elephant Man, none of DKL's films have been hits..and again, other than The Elephant Man, they haven't been huge award show sweethearts either. Eraserhead, Blue Velvet and Mulholland Drive were successful indy films that have continued to attract new viewers for decades after release -- which is in my estimation an even bigger accomplishment than having a flash-in-the-pan box office/ratings hit for a few weeks before it disappears from the cultural consciousness. The first season of TP is DKL's only real "hit," and as others have said, it was unrealistic to expect anything similar from the new show's ratings...both because of the massive shift in viewing paradigms, and because the new show is -- inevitably IMO -- DKL in his late-career unapologetic, dense, arthouse mode. It's not a quirky-but-mostly-accessible mass-consumption confection like GoT, or even the original TP was in many ways.

I do think that TP:TR, if it continues at its current level and sticks the landing, will be a property that provides continuing returns for Showtime for years and even decades to come as new viewers come to It, similar to the way that The Wire and Deadwood exponentially increased their fan bases after cancellation.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Trudy Chelgren » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:43 am

So bored of ratings/success and money.

I read when The Return premiered that some did not like the Black Lodge, or Red Room. I tried to convince myself otherwise, but I don't feel entirely secure with it. I loved the wild CG, and the nuanced performances by Ray Wise and Sheryl Lee. I loved the "evolution of The Arm". But some part of it feels tonally off to me. Some said it had no sense of mysticism, which I can understand; I think we've been presented with things so much more ambitious and strange than the Lodge, that it almost feels domestic now.

Something feels a little sterile, and I feel the problem is in the color and lighting. When Lynch told the story of how he felt the hot car, and the Red Room popped into his mind's eye, I totally felt that. Something about that environment feels hot to me. Not like a natural heat, but like an uncomfortably hot, broken radiator.

The Lodge from The Return:
Image

The Lodge from Episode 29:
Image

The colours, and lighting feel more washed out, almost pastel-like now. There was a fiery, dark feeling to it, and now it feels a little over-exposed. The hot feeling I loved is not around anymore.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:44 am

I think the Red Room/Black Lodge looks terrific. Every home is in need of an update after 25 years, why would the Black Lodge be any different?

I found the Black Lodge scenes the most effective of the show so far, along with the early Buckhorn scenes, the New York glass box scene, and the Purple Room.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Panapaok » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:52 am

Yeah, I love it as well. It's more intriguing to me because they are exploring it more deeply. It feels more like a real endless and terrifying purgatory and less like a set. All the mindbending imagery (floor shifting, darkness behind the curtains) is terrific IMO.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:10 am

The Red Room scenes have been good, but I do agree with the sentiment that they haven't had the deranged exuberance of Episode 29, FWWM or Episode 2. If there's any area where the show feels like it's coasting just a bit on past glory, it's in the Red Room IMO (that being said, I love the Evolution of the Arm, the floor coming apart, and the incredible sweeping dissolves in the main title). In terms of aesthetics, I think the new look has its own effect and it works -- I agree that it feels less set-like and more like an infinite maze -- but I do slightly prefer the old backlit look.

I think the Red Room is inevitably going to feel a bit more like a "safe space" when we've all been living with it for so long. I hope we spend more time in wild new levels of the Lodge world such as the mauve room. TSHoTP seemed to spend a lot of time hinting at the natures of the Lodge spirits and their relationship to humanity. I wonder if that's something the show will explore (in the show so far DKL hasn't seemed to express much interest in dealing with this, but who knows what's to come).
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:14 am

Trudy Chelgren wrote:...
Something feels a little sterile, and I feel the problem is in the color and lighting. When Lynch told the story of how he felt the hot car, and the Red Room popped into his mind's eye, I totally felt that. Something about that environment feels hot to me. Not like a natural heat, but like an uncomfortably hot, broken radiator.



For sure the mood and atmosphere in the Red Room/Waiting Room/Black Lodge feels different, and I think that Lynch purposefully chose to have it this different look and feel. The reason why is for us to discover, I think.
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Re: General Discussion on the New Series (All Opinions Welcome) (SPOILERS)

Postby Rami Airola » Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:17 am

Trudy Chelgren wrote:There was a fiery, dark feeling to it, and now it feels a little over-exposed. The hot feeling I loved is not around anymore.


Yeah, I agree. It doesn't feel like a place where I feel I am surrounded by the curtains.

It doesn't feel like a place where things are 360 degrees around me. It doesn't feel like I, the viewer, have curtains also behind my back. The Red Room doesn't feel like a red room. It feels as if I'm watching a stage play with things on the stage and me sitting away from it instead of me watching it sitting inside the set myself. The original series and the movie felt exactly like that. The new series have zero of that feeling. The areas feel too open.

But still I'm very interested whenever some Lodge stuff happens.




mtwentz wrote:I think the Red Room/Black Lodge looks terrific. Every home is in need of an update after 25 years, why would the Black Lodge be any different?


A timeless place like The Black Lodge loses some of its timelessness if it needs an update after certain time.

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