General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

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Jonah
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Jonah » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:12 am

Did anyone ever add up how much screentime (of the 18 hours) features the town of Twin Peaks? Seems like something a fan somewhere would have worked out.

And have any fanedits appeared yet, cutting out most of the scenes set in other locations, and only keeping Twin Peaks scenes and Red Room scenes in the cut? I figured something like this would have appeared by now, given how many people were disappointed in The Return.

I like it myself (though I prefer the original series), but would be interested if any such things have been calculated/produced.
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mtwentz
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby mtwentz » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:34 pm

Do you include the Red Room, Mauve Room, and White Lodge as taking place in Twin Peaks? If so, I would guesstimate roughly a 1/4 to 1/3 of the show is in TP; 1/3 in Vegas and 1/3 in S. Dakota + other locales (Philly, Odessa, NM, Wyoming and D.C.)
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Kilmoore
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Kilmoore » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:47 pm

Jonah wrote:And have any fanedits appeared yet, cutting out most of the scenes set in other locations, and only keeping Twin Peaks scenes and Red Room scenes in the cut? I figured something like this would have appeared by now, given how many people were disappointed in The Return.

I had a plan of doing this, but since the Twin Peaks scenes are just random bits without any plot, it's not worth the effort.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby LateReg » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:34 pm

eyeboogers wrote:About the timing of that sex scene, I think the biggest clue is the music. "My Prayer" appears twice, during the sex magicks scene and during the Gotta light sequence when the frogmoth takes residence in Sarah. So my best guess is that Linda and Richard open up the portal that allows the woodsman to appear and facilitate the frogmoth business.


Woah. I had never thought of that before. Obviously, I had frequently thought about the use of "My Prayer" and what it may signal thematically and narratively in the present moment, but never that it was playing in order to provide a direct link to the plot taking place in the past. If that's the purpose of their sex, and it's not to further cross over or lure Judy into that world or anything like that, then what is the actual purpose? To allow what exactly to happen and why? (Regarding the portal, the woodsman, the frogmoth, the young girl, etc.) This is a very interesting angle, and I don't often get excited about "figuring it out" when it comes to plot.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Rainwater » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:47 am

Sounds like Cooper's pulling a Jack Parsons there. And that, I think, sounds like something Frost would write.
I don't have his books, but doesn't he explicitly make a Whore of Babylon connection somewhere?
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:28 pm

Rainwater wrote:Sounds like Cooper's pulling a Jack Parsons there. And that, I think, sounds like something Frost would write.
I don't have his books, but doesn't he explicitly make a Whore of Babylon connection somewhere?


Yes, definitely you are on the right track. To the point that I am not sure whether or not that (Coop/Richard) is Jack Parsons (since Diane is dressed exactly like Marjorie Cameron).
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby LateReg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:20 am

eyeboogers wrote:
Rainwater wrote:Sounds like Cooper's pulling a Jack Parsons there. And that, I think, sounds like something Frost would write.
I don't have his books, but doesn't he explicitly make a Whore of Babylon connection somewhere?


Yes, definitely you are on the right track. To the point that I am not sure whether or not that (Coop/Richard) is Jack Parsons (since Diane is dressed exactly like Marjorie Cameron).


Bumping what I asked above. If the point of "My Prayer" playing is to link Cooper/Diane's sex magick ritual to the plot-specific events of 1956, what exactly are they trying to achieve? By opening the portal that allows the Woodsmen to enter, causing young (Sarah) to fall asleep, causing the frogmoth to enter into her, etc. What is their goal in doing that? What does that do? Why do the Woodsmen need to do that chant that allows the frogmoth to climb into the girl if that is Cooper's intention? I'm genuinely interested in this.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby boske » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:05 am

LateReg wrote:Bumping what I asked above. If the point of "My Prayer" playing is to link Cooper/Diane's sex magick ritual to the plot-specific events of 1956, what exactly are they trying to achieve? By opening the portal that allows the Woodsmen to enter, causing young (Sarah) to fall asleep, causing the frogmoth to enter into her, etc. What is their goal in doing that? What does that do? Why do the Woodsmen need to do that chant that allows the frogmoth to climb into the girl if that is Cooper's intention? I'm genuinely interested in this.

At one point earlier this year, I remembered that part and I was asking myself if perhaps, as crazy as it sounds, it was Richard and Linda who are Carrie's parents. It was Cooper and Diane (not Richard and Linda I presume), who took the daytime trip down south, and then Richard and Carrie that took the nocturnal trip back, in the opposite direction.

Anyway, it seemed to me as if Fireman assisted in the incarnation of Carrie in Odessa in order to thwart some sinister plans, and Cooper took his part in getting that to actualise. "What year is this" would then explain why the plan failed, Cooper wanted to face Carrie with Sarah, but landed at a wrong time.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby mtwentz » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:26 am

The more I think about Season 3, the more it occurs to me:
-ANY 'reunion show' that returns after so many years is bound to create the disgruntled, the unsatisfied, the unhappy.

-No matter what final product was created, there was going to be a 'Profoundly Disappointed' group. The passage of time alone made that inevitable. Heck, think of Harrison Ford in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.

-Twin Peaks: The Return, stacks up favorably against most reboots/continuations/reunions. It would be interesting to get a list of movies or shows that have come back after 10 years or more, and see how they are rated by critics and fans. I am not saying The Return would be the highest rated, but I'll bet it would be in the top 10% or so.

Are there many great examples of a show coming back from a 10 year or more hiatus and be as thought provoking at The Return? Deadwood might be an example.
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LateReg
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby LateReg » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:46 pm

mtwentz wrote:-Twin Peaks: The Return, stacks up favorably against most reboots/continuations/reunions. It would be interesting to get a list of movies or shows that have come back after 10 years or more, and see how they are rated by critics and fans. I am not saying The Return would be the highest rated, but I'll bet it would be in the top 10% or so.

Are there many great examples of a show coming back from a 10 year or more hiatus and be as thought provoking at The Return? Deadwood might be an example.


I mean...it depends how you look at this. From my perspective, and from the perspective of year-end list critics (both TV and Film) and the various droves across the internet who think most highly of it, The Return stands completely alone in the current revival trend. High above every other thing, a thing of vision in a landscape of normalcy and fan service. I keep telling everyone that I'm surprised that it's on this site that it gets the least hyperbolic love. It's an actual masterpiece that simultaneously subverted every expectation. It was enabled by the age of reboots, but proceeded to tear down the very notion of the typical reboot in the process (nothing else has addressed our nostalgic need for the reboot), while bridging the gap of all television it inspired between its original airing in 1990 and pushing the medium forward again in 2017. (I would inaccurately say it killed the medium, the omega to the original series' alpha, because it exposed the redundant nature of nearly all prestige TV, and made much of it less interesting for me to watch.) No 2010s reboot has remotely operated like it, including Deadwood's movie, which, for as rich and respected as it is, lasts just two hours and engages in a fair bit of fan service and is content on fulfilling expectations, providing what most would refer to as a proper send-off for the characters. I don't see any point in toning down this kind of hyperbole. We just (2 whole years ago) witnessed something entirely unprecedented, the likes of which will probably never be seen again. The flaws, such as they are depending on the viewer, don't matter; it's a pure vision and that's what counts. And that's not even getting into the multitudes of themes and the depths in which they are explored. I expect to see this opinion borne out in its subsequent appreciation decades from now. The issue at this juncture is that it's mostly film fans who are going to see it this way, while it will seem to linger below a lot of TV series because it lasted only one season and succeeded largely because of how it differentiated itself from everything TV lovers usually love about their medium. That's partially why it proved divisive to TV watchers while film fans embraced its standalone nature.

However, depending on where you look, you won't find this elevated status to be the case, and it's not just about differing opinions, but the foundations of one's beliefs about televisual storytelling. Veronica Mars, for example, was recently listed at #2, one spot ahead of The Return, on a list of revivals; both shows finished below One Day At A Time, which is indeed a great revival. Mars did a lot of good things in its revival, but it's also TV through and through, updated to resemble just about every TV show currently in existence; similarly, One Day at a Time succeeded because it stuck to the old sitcom formula while updating its topicality to poignantly joust with the current political climate. I found that the person who wrote the list did not even cover The Return, and in fact had published articles about her love of the original series while talking about the show's imminent revival in early 2017 but stopped talking about Twin Peaks the moment The Return started airing. I can only assume she was one of the disappointed. More than most series, The Return is simply not for everyone and so it's going to be very hard for it to be rated at the top of any sort of recent consensus poll - it gets by not by the volume of its supporters, but by their passion, and it is indeed passion that determines legacy on all-time polls - while other times a thorough writer may include it in a respectable spot on a publicized list despite not loving it.

I'm not saying this is "wrong." I'm saying that it's to be expected, and depends what angle people are coming at this from. But regardless of how highly rated it is in a fans/critics consensus, there's no doubt it would be considered the most original and profound of any reboot, and it's not even close.

However, if we go back to before the 2010s, there's always Battlestar Galactica, which was not only great for most of its run, but daring and consistently deep and thought-provoking. That would be the one that comes to mind, but I was at first only focusing on the 2010s. And Battlestar, like One Day at a Time, is strictly a reboot and not a continuation at all.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby ManBehindWinkies » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:31 pm

Another revival that came out at the same time as Twin Peaks was Samurai Jack season 5. It was well regarded and it did take the character and the story in a completely new direction. It was similarly derided by a segment of the fan base who didn't approve of the new directions.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:42 pm

A slightly different phenomenon, and too early to say definitively how it’s received, but I’d put HBO’s Watchmen out there, as a TV sequel to the original comic, 34 years on. So far, it’s very much removed from the original (different setting, mostly different cast), and very well received. Lindelof was a huge fan of TP:TR, and the influence seems obvious, particularly in the Jeremy Irons material.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby Isis Unveiled » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:08 am

So I was flipping through my copy of Sex & Rockets: The Occult World of Jack Parsons the other day, and I came across an interesting passage of relevance. It appeared on page 112, after 20 pages or so of an historic overview of John Dee & Sir Edward Kelly's tale of how they came to possess the language of the angels (Enochian).

It reads:

Enochian is thus a language unto itself, with its own grammar and syntax. It is very succinct and has an odd relationship to English that it does not have with other languages. One example of Enochian is the word "Babalon," meaning "harlot" in Enochian, as in the "Whore of Babylon."

...

...

Along with the Calls were dictated instructions, such as when scrying or crystal-gazing the two were [Dee & Kelly to arrange a special cedar table, around the perimeter of which was inscribed in Enochian, "This is the place of the outpouring of forgotten treasure in the form of ecstasy. Only fire is substantial here. This is the way of Babalon and of the beast who is the first form. The eyes only need rest upon the name of any guardian and its representative will speedily be encountered." The whole thing is scrambled in the original, and the name "Babalon" is extremely so, in order to avoid summoning the Harlot. In addition, a special ring and robes had to be worn...


I have no doubt in my mind that Frost has read this book, as it is the best biographical summation of the life and lure of Jack Parsons.

And somewhat off topic but since it was mentioned on this page, I happen to think that in Part 8 when the Fireman sends the Laura orb to Odessa that's actually the same moment she disappears from the Red Room, and from Cooper's grip, and every other time she is abruptly taken in the time continuum. Each time she disappears its the Fireman intervening and sending her to the pocket universe. And when the woodsman take the BOB orb from Mr C it is sent back to the Trinity explosion where he is conjured by The Mother in the form of ectoplasm.

Food for thought.
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby AXX°N N. » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Isis Unveiled wrote:I happen to think that in Part 8 when the Fireman sends the Laura orb to Odessa that's actually the same moment she disappears from the Red Room, and from Cooper's grip, and every other time she is abruptly taken in the time continuum. Each time she disappears its the Fireman intervening and sending her to the pocket universe. And when the woodsman take the BOB orb from Mr C it is sent back to the Trinity explosion where he is conjured by The Mother in the form of ectoplasm.

Yes! I've always felt this in my gut. But the Woodsman never take the orb out--instead, to me, the fact that shards of it after the punch float up/through the ceiling never felt to me like "yep, that's the end." So I think rather that when Mother vomits him up, it's almost like from incoherent form she's unifying him into one whole again, sort of like reverse vomiting.
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mtwentz
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Re: General Discussion on Season 3 (All Opinions Welcome)

Postby mtwentz » Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:31 pm

LateReg wrote:
mtwentz wrote:-Twin Peaks: The Return, stacks up favorably against most reboots/continuations/reunions. It would be interesting to get a list of movies or shows that have come back after 10 years or more, and see how they are rated by critics and fans. I am not saying The Return would be the highest rated, but I'll bet it would be in the top 10% or so.

Are there many great examples of a show coming back from a 10 year or more hiatus and be as thought provoking at The Return? Deadwood might be an example.


I mean...it depends how you look at this. From my perspective, and from the perspective of year-end list critics (both TV and Film) and the various droves across the internet who think most highly of it, The Return stands completely alone in the current revival trend....

Veronica Mars, for example, was recently listed at #2, one spot ahead of The Return, on a list of revivals; both shows finished below One Day At A Time, which is indeed a great revival. Mars did a lot of good things in its revival, but it's also TV through and through, updated to resemble just about every TV show currently in existence; similarly, One Day at a Time succeeded because it stuck to the old sitcom formula while updating its topicality to poignantly joust with the current political climate. .


Now that I have had time to reflect, I think the two best comparisons would be Veronica Mars (the movie and the Hulu series) and the X-Files. Both were respectable continuations, but at the end of the day, mostly forgettable. They serviced the fan base but At the end of the day are pretty forgettable.

(One Day At A Time is not what I would consider a good analogy because it contains a different cast.)
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