The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

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federicomiozzo
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby federicomiozzo » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:58 am

At the end of FWWM Leland/BOB shows pages from Laura's diary to her (in the train scene where she gets killed) saying something along the lines " I thought you knew it was me/ I thought you didn't know it was me)
Does anyone know where those pages are from?
Because if they were from the diary that went to Harold Smith then there is a continuity error in FWWM itself (She wrote about BOB true identity but could not have written them on the diary she already had given to Harold, simply because by the time she talk to Harold for the last time she does not know yet that her father is BOB)
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby Rami Airola » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:58 am

federicomiozzo wrote:At the end of FWWM Leland/BOB shows pages from Laura's diary to her (in the train scene where she gets killed) saying something along the lines " I thought you knew it was me/ I thought you didn't know it was me)
Does anyone know where those pages are from?
Because if they were from the diary that went to Harold Smith then there is a continuity error in FWWM itself (She wrote about BOB true identity but could not have written them on the diary she already had given to Harold, simply because by the time she talk to Harold for the last time she does not know yet that her father is BOB)


These pages were discussed in the original series.
They were mentioned at least in the episode where the killer is revealed and in the final episode.

So not only there were ripped off pages that were already found during the original series but there are now more pages that were found from the toilet in The Return.
The pages were Leland shows are probably the ones he dropped and which Hawk found near the Glastonbury Grove (as mentioned in the final episode).
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby LostInTheMovies » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:09 am

federicomiozzo wrote:At the end of FWWM Leland/BOB shows pages from Laura's diary to her (in the train scene where she gets killed) saying something along the lines " I thought you knew it was me/ I thought you didn't know it was me)
Does anyone know where those pages are from?
Because if they were from the diary that went to Harold Smith then there is a continuity error in FWWM itself (She wrote about BOB true identity but could not have written them on the diary she already had given to Harold, simply because by the time she talk to Harold for the last time she does not know yet that her father is BOB)


No, this would just mean he read her diary and realized she thought her abuser was a mystery man named BOB.

I think the source of most of the inconsistency is the placement of the Harold/Laura scene in FWWM. Dramatically, it's necessary to kick off Laura's last seven days, leading to her other discoveries. But it definitely contradicts so much information from the old and the new show. If the diary had been placed in Harold's keeping on the day she died (as was the implication in both Jennifer Lynch's version and the show itself), with Leland having ripped pages from it that morning, it would be much more logical. But I can't blame Lynch/Engels for sharpening the drama at the expense of continuity, or even Lynch/Frost for ignoring that in order to come with a plausible-if-you-don't-look-too-closely plot twist. Internet nerds like us be damned. ;) As long as it's true in a "spirit of the thing" sense.

And hey, nothing will ever be as internally inconsistent as Robert Jacoby in the Secret History.

EDIT: Oh, and here's pretty much only quasi-plausible explanation. Laura goes back to Harold's on Sunday to tell him she needs her diary back because too much is happening (starting with that dream the night before). But after realizing her killer, she gets spooked again and brings it back. The film doesn't show us this because it would have compromised the dramatic punch of her leaving Harold and her diary behind. But the sense of that scene is true: Laura's only lingering sense of security has been pierced and she's on the path to find out who has been ripping out the pages and why.
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby 4815162342 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:00 am

krishnanspace wrote:First of all,Hawk is just theorising that Leland may have placed the pages.

Very true, and realistically this is the best answer: Hawk is wrong.

However, it feels to me that it is intended to be a true answer of how the pages ended up in the bathroom. And if Hawk is wrong, the mystery remains.
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Re: RE: Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary

Postby AJPRR2GO » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:56 am

AgentEcho wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:
AgentEcho wrote:
What is the indication she wrote that the night before she was killed? Was it the date?


The scene in which she sees Leland's face appear in place of Bob's occurs the night before she was killed - while she has suspicions earlier than that, it really feels to me like this entry is intended to take place after that particular trauma, her full "reveal" moment.


Yeah you are probably right. In that case the only rationalization is that Laura wrote pages in a new diary and Leland took them when he killed her. But they are clearly tying it to the Secret Diary with the pages torn out.

I'd guess Frost and Lynch fell in love with the idea of the torn pages resurfacing and the Annie clue being in them. I can't really blame them, I mean it is a pretty juicy tie in to the original mysteries.

Unless... Laura wrote the passage in a disassociative state and had no memory of it, and Leland/BOB somehow knew and ripped out the pages so she couldn't remember. I think I'm gonna run with that. :D

Not beyond the realm of possibilities.
Remember, when she dropped the diary off at Harold's she exhibited signs of some form of possession, much like Window Earl with Leo in the cabin.
To the best of my knowledge, she and Windom were the only to characters to have shown these signs of transformation and I've never felt that we have had any kind of definitive explanation as to what that was.
She could have been in that possessed state many times and who knows how long for each time.

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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby DeepBlueSeed » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:00 pm

Given what we've seen in Season 3 (such as Cooper arriving at the glass box after we've already seen events unfold there), is there any chance that FWWM has scenes that are shown out of sequence?
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Re: RE: Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby AJPRR2GO » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:56 pm

DeepBlueSeed wrote:Given what we've seen in Season 3 (such as Cooper arriving at the glass box after we've already seen events unfold there), is there any chance that FWWM has scenes that are shown out of sequence?

My friend, there is still a part of me that is not entirely convinced that FWWM took place after the series, and the return is just making me think that more and more.
Subterfuge.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby AJPRR2GO » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:58 pm

AJPRR2GO wrote:
DeepBlueSeed wrote:Given what we've seen in Season 3 (such as Cooper arriving at the glass box after we've already seen events unfold there), is there any chance that FWWM has scenes that are shown out of sequence?

My friend, there is still a part of me that is not entirely convinced that FWWM took place after the series, and the return is just making me think that more and more.
Subterfuge.

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I said that wrong. But I know what I meant.

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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby federicomiozzo » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:29 pm

It's a continuity error. That's all. When Donna reads aloud from the page given to her by Harold's real neighbour, Donna starts "Tonight is the night I'm going to die. I know so because Bob told me in my dream". The page came from the secret diary, which LP had given to Harold before the day she was killed. How could LP had written that "Tonight is the night...", when she was no longer in possesion of her secret diary?
This was discussed in another forum as well.
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:36 pm

federicomiozzo wrote:It's a continuity error. That's all. When Donna reads aloud from the page given to her by Harold's real neighbour, Donna starts "Tonight is the night I'm going to die. I know so because Bob told me in my dream". The page came from the secret diary, which LP had given to Harold before the day she was killed. How could LP had written that "Tonight is the night...", when she was no longer in possesion of her secret diary?
This was discussed in another forum as well.


Maybe she still did her meals on wheels run and wrote it in the diary at Harold's place? She was leaving a trail in the secret diary, and would certainly want to add this latest "breaking news from BOB."
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:00 pm

I'm a continuity nut and was bothered by a lot of the stuff in TSHoTP, but for some reason I have no issue with the diary pages as the story currently stands. It's a little funky, but not unexplainable.

FWWM already created the slight conflict with Episode 16: after Laura leaves the diary, she apparently returned at some point to write that final entry on 2/23. I never had a huge problem with this: when she leaves Harold's, she says something to the effect of, "I don't know when I can come back. Maybe never!" No TP media has ever definitively stated that she didn't actually go back after that. It's not even like she outright says in the scene "I'm never coming back," she's just not sure. Ok. So she went back on 2/23 (a very busy day for her already!). It slightly robs the Laura/Harold scene of its power to know they saw each other again, but otherwise no big deal.

Per the new show, she also apparently went back at some point and wrote about the Annie dream. Ok, so she went back twice. As someone noted, she was still presumably doing her Meals on Wheels runs. After her initial panic/shock, she decided there was no harm in going to Harold's to write more. (If Jen Lynch's book is canon, Laura wrote about Harold in diary entries Bob probably read, so it's not like Harold was some huge secret to begin with...she probably shoulda chosen a better hiding place.)

We have the diary pages Leland/Bob tore out and left at the crime scene. Check. As far as I can remember, the contents of those were never revealed. (I think someone mentioned that they were illegible from exposure to the elements, but I might be misremembering.) Presumably these are the pages we see torn out in FWWM.

Hawk's comment in Part 7 presumably means that once they reconstructed the diary, there were still four pages missing -- that's excluding the pages they already found at the crime scene.

So how did those four pages get torn out? As some have said, maybe Hawk is right; maybe Leland/Bob broke into Harold's to steal more pages on 2/23. A little goofy, but no less likely than some other stuff on the show.

We don't have to take Hawk at his word, though, because we have more info than he does. We know when Laura brought the diary to Harold; he doesn't. So Hawk's assumption that Leland tore the pages out becomes less likely based on facts Hawk's unaware of. While he's a good detective, this makes his assumption less valuable than that of any viewer who has seen the whole show.

Perhaps the Tremonds took the pages. No explanation was ever particularly given for why they chose to live near Harold, except presumably to touch base with Laura (which they could have done from any location by signing up for Meals on Wheels). Given Harold's ultimate close connection to the diary (and the fact that the Tremond house has a prior history in the original series of acting as a dropping-point for torn-out diary pages), I'm inclined to think that Mrs. Tremond and her grandson stole the pages, quite possibly through magic. Then perhaps they appointed Mike to go plant them in the sheriff's station, to be found when the time was right.

That's just one possible idea. I honestly don't particularly care how the pages ended up torn out or in the bathroom stall. It's not super important to my enjoyment of the show. The important thing is, it can easily be explained any number of (slightly convoluted) ways. It's not Norma having a mother with a completely different name who cofounded the diner and died before the start of the series. It's not a true "continuity error" as it stands, and thus it doesn't bother me at all. Life is messy and stuff goes unexplained. Hawk offered a theory -- which didn't take into account data that we as viewers have -- and we can take it or reject it as we see fit. Like much of TP, it's open to interpretation.

Now if some future Part explicitly confirms the Leland theory and says he stole the pages from Laura's room, my Log may have more to say about this. Until then, I'm cool with it.
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:26 pm

Movies/TV don't show us every moment of a character's day. The storyteller chooses to show us the key moments that produce a dramatic arc, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Laura did return to Harold's again to drop her new entries off. But in that scenario, Leland still needs to steal those pages from either Harold's or from the police station.

I still think the easiest scenario to imagine is that Laura wrote the Annie dream information in her second (or third!) diary, and Leland took those pages while she was off with James/Leo. It's pretty easy to imagine that he went into her room and searched for the diary after she took off with James since he watched her leave with crazy jealousy.
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby BigEd » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:29 pm

I posted this in the other thread, but not much traffic there. I believe the entry immediately proceeding the Annie entry was on or around Halloween. I take that as indication that the Annie dream was three to four months prior to Laura's death. They wedged it in between the picture-room dream and Laura waking up to show it is clearly a dream. It doesn't have to occur chronologically between either of those. There is no rule that scenes in FWWM are chronological.
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:57 pm

Good point.

And even if it is in chronological order, what we see in FWWM might just be representative of a series of dreams she had.

There's a technique called metonymy, and one way it can be used (of many) is in regards to using one scene to represent a general experience (of numerous/regular/repeated events). The scene may or may not have happened exactly as it did in real life, and it might depict things that happened on different occasions, but the idea is that it represents the essence of an experience in a compressed form.

For example, maybe Leland regularly melted down on Laura during the family's dinner times, but in the film you only need to represent this with one scene.

The dream sequence therefore can be read as a general metonymic experience, not a specific event.
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Re: The timeline of the key passage from Laura's diary (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:00 pm

BigEd wrote:I posted this in the other thread, but not much traffic there. I believe the entry immediately proceeding the Annie entry was on or around Halloween. I take that as indication that the Annie dream was three to four months prior to Laura's death. They wedged it in between the picture-room dream and Laura waking up to show it is clearly a dream. It doesn't have to occur chronologically between either of those. There is no rule that scenes in FWWM are chronological.


I'm not following your logic. The Annie dream and the Halloween thing were on two separate pages. No one said the three pages were consecutive/contemporeaneous. In fact, they're clearly not...one page is from Halloween and one is from 2/24 (the day after she learned Bob's true identity).

The FWWM script makes it blatantly obvious that the intent was to cover the last seven (well, technically eight) days of Laura's life in sequential order.

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