What we learned about the Twin Peaks mythology in part 8 (SPOILERS)

[Nikki Grace]

I'm starting to doubt whether the girl is Sarah because I think the insect/bug is just too sinister looking to possibly represent Laura in any way, even withstanding how Lynch manipulates duality.

[Ragnell]

Generally the Giant seems like a benevolent figure, but, no matter what they say now, if he knew Leland was Bob (and I think he did), he is complicit at least in Maddie's murder, if not Laura's and Teresa's. "It is happening again" - WHAT IS? mr giant? what is? Tell me so I can do something instead of sitting here twiddling my thumbs....

Good point. Mind you, does he ever say something directly? It's always some clue or riddle!

I always took that, along with the backwards talking by the lodge creatures, to mean that they don't think or communicate like humans do, so they have trouble with language. That he can't say something straightforward because he doesn't know how to translate it effectively for a human. The Giant is doubly in trouble because his host isn't as... mentally available for spirit-to-human translation as Gerard and Leland are for MIKE and BOB. Dale's problems with communication since he left the Lodge would support this.

As for "permitted"? Well, I took that to mean there's some sort of agreement between the Lodges, there's a set of rules that allows the Black Lodge to exist and the White Lodge to exist and for them to both gather what they need to sustain that existence without breaking into full war and destroying several realms. That's a normal thing for gods and spirits and fairies and such, after all. If the Giant shows Cooper a direct image, or tells him the name Leland or uses the word Father or anything that means Cooper knows the answer right after speaking with him, then he's broken the rules and justified other, less benevolent creatures breaking those rules. If the Giant is the same spirit as ???????, then it's possible that he's even more restricted in how much he can meddle without setting off a spirit war because of his power level.

Operating under those two restrictions explains a lot of behavior not just from the Giant but from MIKE and the Tremonds as well.

[yaxomoxay]

Generally the Giant seems like a benevolent figure, but, no matter what they say now, if he knew Leland was Bob (and I think he did), he is complicit at least in Maddie's murder, if not Laura's and Teresa's. "It is happening again" - WHAT IS? mr giant? what is? Tell me so I can do something instead of sitting here twiddling my thumbs....

That would go against the concept of free will, both in practical and metaphysical terms. By giving clues the Giant is offering a path to take, but he's not forcing Coop to take it by giving away the right choice to make.


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[Mr. Reindeer]

Generally the Giant seems like a benevolent figure, but, no matter what they say now, if he knew Leland was Bob (and I think he did), he is complicit at least in Maddie's murder, if not Laura's and Teresa's. "It is happening again" - WHAT IS? mr giant? what is? Tell me so I can do something instead of sitting here twiddling my thumbs....

That would go against the concept of free will, both in practical and metaphysical terms. By giving clues the Giant is offering a path to take, but he's not forcing Coop to take it by giving away the right choice to make

I think you're talking about narrative agency moreso than free will. If I were in the Giant's position and knew the identity of a murderer, and I told the detective investigating the crime what I knew, I don't think anyone would claim I had robbed the detective of her free will by helping her to solve the crime.

[DoppelBocker]

Overall, I think I'm just gonna wait to see what happens and kind of regretting posting speculation so far. At the moment, I think I'll sign off until then. Have fun everyone.

[4815162342]

Generally the Giant seems like a benevolent figure, but, no matter what they say now, if he knew Leland was Bob (and I think he did), he is complicit at least in Maddie's murder, if not Laura's and Teresa's. "It is happening again" - WHAT IS? mr giant? what is? Tell me so I can do something instead of sitting here twiddling my thumbs....

Good point. Mind you, does he ever say something directly? It's always some clue or riddle!

I always took that, along with the backwards talking by the lodge creatures, to mean that they don't think or communicate like humans do, so they have trouble with language. That he can't say something straightforward because he doesn't know how to translate it effectively for a human. The Giant is doubly in trouble because his host isn't as... mentally available for spirit-to-human translation as Gerard and Leland are for MIKE and BOB. Dale's problems with communication since he left the Lodge would support this.

As for "permitted"? Well, I took that to mean there's some sort of agreement between the Lodges, there's a set of rules that allows the Black Lodge to exist and the White Lodge to exist and for them to both gather what they need to sustain that existence without breaking into full war and destroying several realms. That's a normal thing for gods and spirits and fairies and such, after all. If the Giant shows Cooper a direct image, or tells him the name Leland or uses the word Father or anything that means Cooper knows the answer right after speaking with him, then he's broken the rules and justified other, less benevolent creatures breaking those rules. If the Giant is the same spirit as ???????, then it's possible that he's even more restricted in how much he can meddle without setting off a spirit war because of his power level.

Operating under those two restrictions explains a lot of behavior not just from the Giant but from MIKE and the Tremonds as well.

Well, Mike wasn't much help either. He went from "it's him! it's your father!" in FWWM, seemingly not heard, but he said it...to "...(groan) I sense Bob is near (groan)...in a house with many rooms...blah blah blah" in the series.

Also, the grandson was able to more or less directly tell Laura that Bob was looking for the diary...MIke threw the ring in to "help" Laura...it's not like they don't ever intervene. The rules seem more like arbitrary devices to make the plot work than any coherent code of lodge conduct.

[4815162342]

Generally the Giant seems like a benevolent figure, but, no matter what they say now, if he knew Leland was Bob (and I think he did), he is complicit at least in Maddie's murder, if not Laura's and Teresa's. "It is happening again" - WHAT IS? mr giant? what is? Tell me so I can do something instead of sitting here twiddling my thumbs....

That would go against the concept of free will, both in practical and metaphysical terms. By giving clues the Giant is offering a path to take, but he's not forcing Coop to take it by giving away the right choice to make.


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I don't see why it takes away free will to share information. It's still up to the individual how to react to the information, no?

[yaxomoxay]

Generally the Giant seems like a benevolent figure, but, no matter what they say now, if he knew Leland was Bob (and I think he did), he is complicit at least in Maddie's murder, if not Laura's and Teresa's. "It is happening again" - WHAT IS? mr giant? what is? Tell me so I can do something instead of sitting here twiddling my thumbs....

That would go against the concept of free will, both in practical and metaphysical terms. By giving clues the Giant is offering a path to take, but he's not forcing Coop to take it by giving away the right choice to make.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't see why it takes away free will to share information. It's still up to the individual how to react to the information, no?

It depends on how much information, and which type of information.
Cooper had to solve the mystery (and as he said, the clues were right in front of him) by himself. And Laura had to choose good rather than evil.

I might tell you "be careful about the choices you make as they will bring dire consequences" and you might still choose to do the wrong thing specifically because it's just a general warning. If I show to you that stealing a piece of candy from your sister will lead to a path of crime and suffering that in turn will bring you to eternal damnation and suffering in hell, then you will certainly choose to not steal the piece of candy (unless you're completely deranged!!); in that case the decision would be forced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[4815162342]

That would go against the concept of free will, both in practical and metaphysical terms. By giving clues the Giant is offering a path to take, but he's not forcing Coop to take it by giving away the right choice to make.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't see why it takes away free will to share information. It's still up to the individual how to react to the information, no?

It depends on how much information, and which type of information.
Cooper had to solve the mystery (and as he said, the clues were right in front of him) by himself. And Laura had to choose good rather than evil.

I might tell you "be careful about the choices you make as they will bring dire consequences" and you might still choose to do the wrong thing specifically because it's just a general warning. If I show to you that stealing a piece of candy from your sister will lead to a path of crime and suffering that in turn will bring you to eternal damnation and suffering in hell, then you will certainly choose to not steal the piece of candy (unless you're completely deranged!!); in that case the decision would be forced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not really. It's still your choice. Unless someone is forcing you to do something, merely telling you information can't take away your free will, it can only (potentially) influence you.

[yaxomoxay]

I don't see why it takes away free will to share information. It's still up to the individual how to react to the information, no?

It depends on how much information, and which type of information.
Cooper had to solve the mystery (and as he said, the clues were right in front of him) by himself. And Laura had to choose good rather than evil.

I might tell you "be careful about the choices you make as they will bring dire consequences" and you might still choose to do the wrong thing specifically because it's just a general warning. If I show to you that stealing a piece of candy from your sister will lead to a path of crime and suffering that in turn will bring you to eternal damnation and suffering in hell, then you will certainly choose to not steal the piece of candy (unless you're completely deranged!!); in that case the decision would be forced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not really. It's still your choice. Unless someone is forcing you to do something, merely telling you information can't take away your free will, it can only (potentially) influence you.

If the Giant told Cooper "Leland is the killer", Cooper would've had no other choice than just to arrest Leland. No decision by Cooper, at that point he would just follow a logical consequence.
Instead Cooper had to freely investigate, and learn to accept that a father raped and killed his own daughter (and other girls). Only when he realized that Leland - the suffering father - was the cause of so much pain, he connected the dots and realized the help he received.


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[Ragnell]

Good point. Mind you, does he ever say something directly? It's always some clue or riddle!

I always took that, along with the backwards talking by the lodge creatures, to mean that they don't think or communicate like humans do, so they have trouble with language. That he can't say something straightforward because he doesn't know how to translate it effectively for a human. The Giant is doubly in trouble because his host isn't as... mentally available for spirit-to-human translation as Gerard and Leland are for MIKE and BOB. Dale's problems with communication since he left the Lodge would support this.

As for "permitted"? Well, I took that to mean there's some sort of agreement between the Lodges, there's a set of rules that allows the Black Lodge to exist and the White Lodge to exist and for them to both gather what they need to sustain that existence without breaking into full war and destroying several realms. That's a normal thing for gods and spirits and fairies and such, after all. If the Giant shows Cooper a direct image, or tells him the name Leland or uses the word Father or anything that means Cooper knows the answer right after speaking with him, then he's broken the rules and justified other, less benevolent creatures breaking those rules. If the Giant is the same spirit as ???????, then it's possible that he's even more restricted in how much he can meddle without setting off a spirit war because of his power level.

Operating under those two restrictions explains a lot of behavior not just from the Giant but from MIKE and the Tremonds as well.

Well, Mike wasn't much help either. He went from "it's him! it's your father!" in FWWM, seemingly not heard, but he said it...to "...(groan) I sense Bob is near (groan)...in a house with many rooms...blah blah blah" in the series.

Also, the grandson was able to more or less directly tell Laura that Bob was looking for the diary...MIke threw the ring in to "help" Laura...it's not like they don't ever intervene. The rules seem more like arbitrary devices to make the plot work than any coherent code of lodge conduct.

Of course they seem like arbitrary devices, we don't know what the rules. We don't know what truly makes MIKE different from the Giant and different from the Tremonds. We don't know why some have freedom to speak and others don't. We don't know if Pierre Tremond was BREAKING a rule or not at that time. We don't know where they fit.

And that's part of the point. This rules scheme is an ancient storytelling device. The Gods have rules. Spirits have rules. The Fair Folk have rules. That these beings have different rules than mortals makes them both more and less horrifying, and contextualizes them to our real life experiences. These entities are unknown and have authority we don't understand. It's how children see adults, or how one culture sees another, or honestly any situation where you are dealing with someone who has an unknown agenda and an unknown cultural context. Through these stories, we explore the horror of dealing with another consciousness, where we can't know for sure what they intend or what they can even do. It's a reflection of the small and the large leaps of empathy and understanding we need to make through our lives.

It also relates fairy tales, myths, legends and Twin Peaks to relating to nature. Nature has rules. We don't inherently understand those rules, and nothing in nature can TELL us those rules. We've had to have people spend their lives observing the natural world so they can figure out the science of nature, and what the rules are and why things happen. The ancients didn't have this, and honestly the common person doesn't have this context either. We spend our livings dealing with forces that don't have anything in common wiht human consciousness, that have immense power and influence over us, and that follow very strict rules that we don't fully understand.

Lucy's fear of cellphones comes to mind. We think that's stupid, but honestly... unless you work in Cyber Transport, Telephony, Satellite Communications or any of those applied sciences... do you REALLY understand how a cellphone works? How the signals pass from tower to handset? The mathematics involved? The forces of nature involved? Only people who spent their lives learning to do this really understand that. And Lucy is someone who understood how the old phone system worked, but simply may not be able to grasp how a cellphone differs from analog signals traveling along a copper wire. And so, when confronted with it she tries to figure it out, without knowing the basics of the rules, and her brain breaks.

The same thing happens to us when we try to make sense of the actions of the Lodge spirits. We don't know the hierarchy, we don't know the rules, we don't even know if they are two races or forty races with different physiology and brain structure which could cause them to communicate differently. We don't know if they have a treaty or if they are both answering to a higher power. So, their actions seem arbitrary and nonsensical.

And it's a joy to observe the series and try and figure it out, but what makes them truly effective as a horror element is that we don't understand how they work and can't predict them.