When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

[yaxomoxay]

Is this Dougie or Mr. C

Mr C wearing white contacts


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[Firewalkwithme91]

I´m really enjoying the Dougie-storyline and I think he will snap out of it in the last couple of episodes. The person that we will get though will not be the optimistic, carefree Cooper that we know from the original series. 25 years in the Black Lodge had to leave a mark on him otherwise the show would´ve lost all credibility for me. If you can be okay within one or two episodes after spending this huge amount of time in hell, it can´t be that bad of a place.
These discussions remind me a bit of season 6 of "Buffy" where people were annoyed that the creators spent a whole season (SPOILERS UNTIL THE END OF PARAGRAPH) dealing with her depression after being brought back from the dead. But I was really happy that Joss Whedon and the writers took that ballsy direction because it showed that there were consequences in their fictional universe and people couldn´t just be resurrected willy-nilly without having to pay a price for it.

For me it´s pretty simple: If I want the old Cooper, I watch the original series. End of story. This new show, however, had to be different or else it would fall in the same vein as so many boring reboots/remakes/revivals these day that simply give the people what they think they want instead of coming up with a new interesting direction or vision for the material.

[crazyscottishguy]

You may need to put this in spoiler mode but :

Spoiler:

Definitely Cooper to me.

I don't think it's a spoiler. It was in the Showtime trailer...i mean it's been out there for 3 months

I don't personnally mind but some people here don't want anything to do with teasers.

The title thread has the word SPOILERS in it, so i'm sure they won't even bother browse through this thread to keep the mystery alive

[Terence]

So you find it a interesting direction to make a great character like Dale Cooper basically be gone for the whole season of 18 hours & just come back at the end of for like the final 2 hours or whenever?

When most people wanted to see the real Dale after all this time of waiting & the build up to this new season..

Showing Cooper being damaged after been in the Black Lodge for 25 years so could & should have been done a hell of lot better than this brain damged person just stumbling around..

[The Gazebo]

I´m really enjoying the Dougie-storyline and I think he will snap out of it in the last couple of episodes. The person that we will get though will not be the optimistic, carefree Cooper that we know from the original series. 25 years in the Black Lodge had to leave a mark on him otherwise the show would´ve lost all credibility for me.

Well, that's true. However, if he does "snap" out of it before season's end, it will almost be an even bigger credibility issue. He needs help doing almost everything. Just turning him into a semi-functioning human being (the one who can live by himself, and do simple tasks at home) will probably take years of training.

[yaxomoxay]

I´m really enjoying the Dougie-storyline and I think he will snap out of it in the last couple of episodes. The person that we will get though will not be the optimistic, carefree Cooper that we know from the original series. 25 years in the Black Lodge had to leave a mark on him otherwise the show would´ve lost all credibility for me. If you can be okay within one or two episodes after spending this huge amount of time in hell, it can´t be that bad of a place.
These discussions remind me a bit of season 6 of "Buffy" where people were annoyed that the creators spent a whole season (SPOILERS UNTIL THE END OF PARAGRAPH) dealing with her depression after being brought back from the dead. But I was really happy that Joss Whedon and the writers took that ballsy direction because it showed that there were consequences in their fictional universe and people couldn´t just be resurrected willy-nilly without having to pay a price for it.

For me it´s pretty simple: If I want the old Cooper, I watch the original series. End of story. This new show, however, had to be different or else it would fall in the same vein as so many boring reboots/remakes/revivals these day that simply give the people what they think they want instead of coming up with a new interesting direction or vision for the material.

Buffy spoilers

Spoiler:

I agree with you (although I hope to see snapped out Cooper around episode 12). Whedon's choice for Buffy was exemplary. It was somewhat realistic and touching, especially since all she had to go through since she became the slayer (Dawn, her mom, bad Willow)

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[LateReg]

Structurally speaking, The Return has now established itself as a show *about* Cooper being trapped in Dougie Jones' place with difficulty communicating and (from all appearances) remembering who he is and understanding his surroundings. (I mean, it's obviously about a lot of other stuff too, but that's the core narrative most directly involving the protagonist.)

In that sense, a switch "back to Cooper" would have made more sense in ep4 or 5 rather than in ep13 or 14. At that point, Dougie/Coop could still have been a tangent/subplot but at this point it's not anymore - it's the "who killed Laura Palmer?" of Twin Peaks. And we all know how Lynch/Frost feel about revealing that before the show was over.

My prediction is the earliest "Dougie" recovers some memories and functionality beyond the most basic is at the end of Part 16, just before we begin the two-hour finale a week later. And even then maybe he's only groggy, half-aware. And I wont' be shocked if he never comes back to being Cooper except in a back in the Lodge/after death type of scenario.

Of course, structurally speaking, Lynch has also made several films which take radical turns around the third-act, leaving plenty of time to explore that twist, so who know! That said, those radical turns usually make the narrative *more* perplexing and disorienting, not less so I'm skeptical we'll get some "snap back, now we're on the main track" moment in ep13.

I find myself agreeing with all of this. I posted in the disappointed thread (I'm not disappointed, but I responded to someone) that I used to be guilty of thinking Dougie was a diversion and that Coop would come back in Part 6 (which is amazing if you think about it, to hide the main storyline in plain sight like that to the point that half the audience still won't recognize/accept that it is the most important part of the show). I still prescribe to the notion that at 2:53 in Part 12 or 13 that something major will happen, possibly involving Cooper's return. But I have now fallen peacefully into Dougie-Coop, and view that, like you said, as THE main storyline. Cooper finding his way back to himself. It is simply the most truthful way of telling this story, that of a man who was lost outside of time for 25 years. You don't just snap back from that, and Lynch/Frost are brazenly interested in exploring that truth, which ties directly into the other themes of The Return. It kind of hit me today, actually. I've been tearing up just thinking of the way Cooper was, compared to his struggle right now.

[yaxomoxay]

So you find it a interesting direction to make a great character like Dale Cooper basically be gone for the whole season of 18 hours & just come back at the end of for like the final 2 hours or whenever?

When most people wanted to see the real Dale after all this time of waiting & the build up to this new season..

Showing Cooper being damaged after been in the Black Lodge for 25 years so could & should have been done a hell of lot better than this brain damged person just stumbling around..

Honestly what people wanted - including myself - sucked compared to what we have here.
Now, we might disagree a bit on when Cooper should come back (I think he will come back soon), but people wanted another mystery in the charm of Twin Peaks.
The charm of Twin Peaks failed before. It can't hold a season, it can't hold for anything else just than a cherry and pie episode. There is no way to recreate anything remotely similar to the original twin peaks which is what most of us wanted. I spent months before S3 reading Reddit, forums, ideas etc and except asking ourselves a bit about Cooper, 99% of the idea was: cooper comes back somehow, there's a murder, he drinks coffee and pie, not much has changed.
It would've never ever worked. Heck, it failed in season 2!!!!
I am not saying that you have to like this season, far from it. However keep in mind the TP charm was already tried and failed. We must see Dougie; he is the only event that no one expected. He's the mystery.


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[The Gazebo]

I've been tearing up just thinking of the way Cooper was, compared to his struggle right now.

But are we absolutely sure that he does struggle? Or is he just a "newborn" feeding off familiar sounds, smells and objects, looking lost in the process? A struggle would entail that he has some memory of how/what he used to be, I think. By the way, I'm not ruling out your view (I might come around to it myself), it's just that I haven't seen enough glimpses of his past self.

[LateReg]

I've been tearing up just thinking of the way Cooper was, compared to his struggle right now.

But are we absolutely sure that he does struggle? Or is he just a "newborn" feeding off familiar sounds, smells and objects, looking lost in the process? A struggle would entail that he has some memory of how/what he used to be, I think. By the way, I'm not ruling out your view (I might come around to it myself), it's just that I haven't seen enough glimpses of his past self.

No, we're not sure at all. But to see a man that once was something so special and fully formed and now is something else is heartbreaking regardless.

If I had to guess, though, I'd say he is struggling. He's shown signs of awareness and emotion, both sadness and happiness. Even in his most dead-eyed moments, such as when he's eating a sandwich or cake, it seems to me like he's feeling some of the weight of being lost and incapable of communicating. Perhaps he really was designed after Mark Frost's father, suffering from Alzheimer's. He does have to have some memory of what he used to be since he keeps reaching for officers' badges. And even if he is more of a newborn, I still see him as a fully grown man trapped in a newborn's mentality, which indicates struggle at some level to me.

[Agent Earle]

So you find it a interesting direction to make a great character like Dale Cooper basically be gone for the whole season of 18 hours & just come back at the end of for like the final 2 hours or whenever?

When most people wanted to see the real Dale after all this time of waiting & the build up to this new season..

Showing Cooper being damaged after been in the Black Lodge for 25 years so could & should have been done a hell of lot better than this brain damged person just stumbling around..

Honestly what people wanted - including myself - sucked compared to what we have here.
Now, we might disagree a bit on when Cooper should come back (I think he will come back soon), but people wanted another mystery in the charm of Twin Peaks.
The charm of Twin Peaks failed before. It can't hold a season, it can't hold for anything else just than a cherry and pie episode. There is no way to recreate anything remotely similar to the original twin peaks which is what most of us wanted. I spent months before S3 reading Reddit, forums, ideas etc and except asking ourselves a bit about Cooper, 99% of the idea was: cooper comes back somehow, there's a murder, he drinks coffee and pie, not much has changed.
It would've never ever worked. Heck, it failed in season 2!!!!



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The reasons for the demise of the "old" Twin Peaks were FAR more complicated and checkered than you make them sound and had virtually nothing to do with Cooper being his recognizable Cooper self and solving crimes in the quirky and atmospheric environment of Twin Peaks - in fact, going by everything that was said and written on the subject in the decades since (it's all well documented and I don't feel like repeating all that stuff, but I think you'll have no trouble catching up on it), I'd say they were ANYTHING BUT.

[yaxomoxay]

So you find it a interesting direction to make a great character like Dale Cooper basically be gone for the whole season of 18 hours & just come back at the end of for like the final 2 hours or whenever?

When most people wanted to see the real Dale after all this time of waiting & the build up to this new season..

Showing Cooper being damaged after been in the Black Lodge for 25 years so could & should have been done a hell of lot better than this brain damged person just stumbling around..

Honestly what people wanted - including myself - sucked compared to what we have here.
Now, we might disagree a bit on when Cooper should come back (I think he will come back soon), but people wanted another mystery in the charm of Twin Peaks.
The charm of Twin Peaks failed before. It can't hold a season, it can't hold for anything else just than a cherry and pie episode. There is no way to recreate anything remotely similar to the original twin peaks which is what most of us wanted. I spent months before S3 reading Reddit, forums, ideas etc and except asking ourselves a bit about Cooper, 99% of the idea was: cooper comes back somehow, there's a murder, he drinks coffee and pie, not much has changed.
It would've never ever worked. Heck, it failed in season 2!!!!



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The reasons for the demise of the "old" Twin Peaks were FAR more complicated and checkered than you make them sound and had virtually nothing to do with Cooper being his recognizable Cooper self and solving crimes in the quirky and atmospheric environment of Twin Peaks - in fact, going by everything that was said and written on the subject in the decades since (it's all well documented and I don't feel like repeating all that stuff, but I think you'll have no trouble catching up on it), I'd say they were ANYTHING BUT.

The problem is that once the mystery was gone, nothing was left. That was the main producer's error. Of course there were a plethora of mistakes, but that was the main one. They thought that the town of TP was good enough to keep the series up. It wasn't.
Just check the Gilmore Girls. They were able to pull a nostalgia fest, but barely and with only four episodes virtually detached between themselves. Cooper coming back to TP isn't enough to keep the good series going without it becoming a slightly darker Gilmore Girls.




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[Agent Earle]

Honestly what people wanted - including myself - sucked compared to what we have here.
Now, we might disagree a bit on when Cooper should come back (I think he will come back soon), but people wanted another mystery in the charm of Twin Peaks.
The charm of Twin Peaks failed before. It can't hold a season, it can't hold for anything else just than a cherry and pie episode. There is no way to recreate anything remotely similar to the original twin peaks which is what most of us wanted. I spent months before S3 reading Reddit, forums, ideas etc and except asking ourselves a bit about Cooper, 99% of the idea was: cooper comes back somehow, there's a murder, he drinks coffee and pie, not much has changed.
It would've never ever worked. Heck, it failed in season 2!!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The reasons for the demise of the "old" Twin Peaks were FAR more complicated and checkered than you make them sound and had virtually nothing to do with Cooper being his recognizable Cooper self and solving crimes in the quirky and atmospheric environment of Twin Peaks - in fact, going by everything that was said and written on the subject in the decades since (it's all well documented and I don't feel like repeating all that stuff, but I think you'll have no trouble catching up on it), I'd say they were ANYTHING BUT.

The problem is that once the mystery was gone, nothing was left. That was the main producer's error. Of course there were a plethora of mistakes, but that was the main one. They thought that the town of TP was good enough to keep the series up. It wasn't.
Just check the Gilmore Girls. They were able to pull a nostalgia fest, but barely and with only four episodes virtually detached between themselves. Cooper coming back to TP isn't enough to keep the good series going without it becoming a slightly darker Gilmore Girls.




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I hear what you're saying, but I just wanted to point out that Cooper, his quirky habits and idiosyncracies ware probably the least of the old show's problems. I think that if the show would've been able to come up with enough compelling mysteries after the Laura Palmer one, audiences would've been happy watching Cooper sip his coffee, nibble his pie and talk into his tape recorder while solving them for an unlimited amount of time - I don't remember anyone ever having any problems with Cooper and his detective work, ever. It was the losing of the focus and dispersion of the strong central riddle (along with behind-the-screen tribulations and calamities that were responsible for what the mainstream perceived as "mess" on the screen) to practically infinite amount of not so compelling, overly humorous subplots in the 5-6 episodes after the Laura's killer's downfall that dealt the series the blow from which it never recuperated. Of course, getting Cooper out of his black suit and into the flannel (as much as I liked it back then and like it still) didn't help either - there's a reason why the series is generally said to get back on track the moment Cooper jumps into his blacks again

[The Gazebo]

I hear what you're saying, but I just wanted to point out that Cooper, his quirky habits and idiosyncracies ware probably the least of the old show's problems. I think that if the show would've been able to come up with enough compelling mysteries after the Laura Palmer one, audiences would've been happy watching Cooper sip his coffee, nibble his pie and talk into his tape recorder while solving them for an unlimited amount of time - I don't remember anyone ever having any problems with Cooper and his detective work, ever.

I've always wondered why the case needed to be solved so quickly after the reveal. Leland disappearing into the woods (or something similar) for a few episodes could have prolonged the central mystery and maybe added a few twists to it.

[yaxomoxay]

The reasons for the demise of the "old" Twin Peaks were FAR more complicated and checkered than you make them sound and had virtually nothing to do with Cooper being his recognizable Cooper self and solving crimes in the quirky and atmospheric environment of Twin Peaks - in fact, going by everything that was said and written on the subject in the decades since (it's all well documented and I don't feel like repeating all that stuff, but I think you'll have no trouble catching up on it), I'd say they were ANYTHING BUT.

The problem is that once the mystery was gone, nothing was left. That was the main producer's error. Of course there were a plethora of mistakes, but that was the main one. They thought that the town of TP was good enough to keep the series up. It wasn't.
Just check the Gilmore Girls. They were able to pull a nostalgia fest, but barely and with only four episodes virtually detached between themselves. Cooper coming back to TP isn't enough to keep the good series going without it becoming a slightly darker Gilmore Girls.




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I hear what you're saying, but I just wanted to point out that Cooper, his quirky habits and idiosyncracies ware probably the least of the old show's problems. I think that if the show would've been able to come up with enough compelling mysteries after the Laura Palmer one, audiences would've been happy watching Cooper sip his coffee, nibble his pie and talk into his tape recorder while solving them for an unlimited amount of time - I don't remember anyone ever having any problems with Cooper and his detective work, ever. It was the losing of the focus and dispersion of the strong central riddle (along with behind-the-screen tribulations and calamities that were responsible for what the mainstream perceived as "mess" on the screen) to practically infinite amount of not so compelling, overly humorous subplots in the 5-6 episodes after the Laura's killer's downfall that dealt the series the blow from which it never recuperated. Of course, getting Cooper out of his black suit and into the flannel (as much as I liked it back then and like it still) didn't help either - there's a reason why the series is generally said to get back on track the moment Cooper jumps into his blacks again

Yeah, Cooper's quirkiness was not the problem at all, it actually made the show survive a little more than it should've. I think that most of the audience recognized that there was no way to create another compelling mystery after the murderer was revealed. The risk was to have another Cabot Cove where the crime rate is about 95%, in other words it was becoming a different show. The town was not enough to keep the dream alive. Granted, the producers missed many other opportunities by making some stories way too central (Jean Renault, Dick Tremaine, etc) but conceptually the good TP was not there anymore. S2 was also way too long, padded by useless stories and events. It really falls short.
There was no way that Lynch and Frost would've tried an already failed method. Granted, they gambled. Dougie, the non-TP scenes etc, are a big gamble. I can't think of anyone that would take one of the most interesting and loved characters just to transform him in a drooling idiot. That takes balls, and I trust it takes an uncanny ability to visualize a bigger picture.
As for the non-TP locations, I also think that it's a positive sign of recognizing a weakness. That is, TP is not central to virtually anyone. If you ask around, many people don't know or remember about TP. Older people might remember it, or at least the name Laura Palmer, but that's it. I trust that Lynch, Frost, and Showtime know that.


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