When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

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yaxomoxay
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby yaxomoxay » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:38 pm

Voltaire wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
Voltaire wrote:
We do not have a real Special Agent Dale Cooper. We have a Rain Man/Mr. Mgoo Cooper. Special Agent Dale Cooper has not appeared in the return. I fear that he might not. I get that he might be damaged but they could have repaired that within the 10 episodes we have seen. What they have done to Cooper is awful and the character is awful and not entertaining at all. There is 8 hours left and still time to redeem this. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi Lucas had made Han a blithering idiot after coming out of the frozen state for the bulk of the film . That is essentially what we have here.


Special Agent Dale Cooper is gone. He was a Special Agent 25 years ago, he isn't anymore. He spent 25 years out of this reality, this world, and the FBI. He will be a very different Cooper when he comes back (he will, and I guess the October 1 theory is correct).


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I agree, he will be different. But he shouldn't be a mentally disabled mess. That is a stupid story line. Very poor choice.


Well, I certainly respect your opinion. Personally I love it, I think that it's a great addition to the crazy universe of TP. The more I re watch the past episodes, the more I like what I am seeing. Same goes for my wife - not a TP fan.
But you know, de gustibus non est disputandum.



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Ragnell
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Re: When do you think will

Postby Ragnell » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:00 pm

Voltaire wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
djsunyc wrote:i love twin peaks. i love david lynch.

but i am very dissapointed we haven't had real coop back - only b/c he is an iconic character and one of the best "good guys" in tv history. not having him 10 episodes in does hurt a bit...only b/c i really don't know if we'll ever get him back. if you told me there'll be a 4th season, then i can deal but i think this is it for TP...and 1-3 hours of our coop back is not cool with me.


Well, we do have a real Cooper... although everyone calls him Dougie.
Unfortunately he's still paying for the huge mistake he did 25 years ago. Although I understand what you mean - we all love our old coffee & pie Coop - we also have to accept that being so shaken and destroyed is as reale as it gets. Lynch just made quirky something that in reality is horrendous (similar to the victim of a kidnapping. It might take years or decades to ease on the mind of the victim.)


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We do not have a real Special Agent Dale Cooper. We have a Rain Man/Mr. Mgoo Cooper. Special Agent Dale Cooper has not appeared in the return. I fear that he might not. I get that he might be damaged but they could have repaired that within the 10 episodes we have seen. What they have done to Cooper is awful and the character is awful and not entertaining at all. There is 8 hours left and still time to redeem this. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi Lucas had made Han a blithering idiot after coming out of the frozen state for the bulk of the film . That is essentially what we have here.


That'd be sad, but it's not the same because that movie's about Luke anyway.

And this season is clearly about Cooper. That character is not empty, or mindless. He's struggling. It seems like he's trapped under a spell and has to reach certain milestones to break out. And every few scenes, there's something that produces a jolt and progresses him a little. Still, at this rate it would take way longer than 8 more hours so I expect the wakeup to be sudden. Not to bring back the old Dale necessarily, but to spur him into action and decision. A point where he is clearly making his own decisions.

And really, I love this. In Las Vegas, we're seeing a man sleepwalking in a world that's set up to keep people asleep like that. To just shuffle them through society to maintain the norm, but even asleep Dale Cooper has an impact on everything around him. The few times he's surfaced have been disruptive. The actual awakening is going to be a MAJOR disruption, and the more fleshed out the setting is in Las Vegas the more I can appreciate what sort of person Dale is by how he's affecting and how he's certain to affect it when he wakes up.

This storyline is really underlining what TYPE of hero Dale Cooper is. And that's where your Star Wars metaphor comes back. Because he's not a live by your wits and care for those around you survivor like Han. He's not a passionate political revolutionary like Leia. He's a spiritual, moral, and personal transformational presence like Luke. When Dale Cooper enters your life, even asleep, your life changes. He intuitively picks up the things that are wrong and starts to right them.

So far, he's gone into a casino run by mobsters and walked off with over $400,000 of their money, setting them up for a conflict that will bring them in the same area as law enforcement. (Because the police is investigating Dougie Jones and soon so will the FBI, so he's not a guy those brothers will want disappearing in their casino.)

He sleptwalked into the life of a family that was in debt with that $400+k, after they had lost their primary source of income. In addition to the money, even in his sleep he manages to be a better father and husband than the man he's replaced.

He shuffles to work, thinking of nothing but coffee, and instantly pinpoints a coworker that's pulling one over on his boss. He uncovers major criminal activity in that company.

He reflexively takes out a hitman that attacks him, helping the police to collar a wanted criminal and sending some reverberations through the underworld.

This isn't like Mr. Magoo where it's just funny survival. Everything Dale Cooper does, even when he's not paying attention, is making the lives of those around him BETTER. And the more we see of Las Vegas and Dougie, the more I want Cooper to wake up while STILL THERE so that we can see this effect on those around him turned up to 11,000 as he consciously processes what's going on and what he can do to help these people out.

And this isn't new. This is what he did for Twin Peaks. He improved the lives of those around him through his advice and attention, and he zeroed in on the crime and corruption in town and forced confrontations. That's why the Black Lodge singled him out and took him out of play.

This story is amazing and has made me appreciate the type of hero he is, because I never would have put together that THIS is the effect Dale has on the world if I hadn't seen him sleepwalk through someone else's life.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby yaxomoxay » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:10 pm

Ragnell wrote:
Voltaire wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
Well, we do have a real Cooper... although everyone calls him Dougie.
Unfortunately he's still paying for the huge mistake he did 25 years ago. Although I understand what you mean - we all love our old coffee & pie Coop - we also have to accept that being so shaken and destroyed is as reale as it gets. Lynch just made quirky something that in reality is horrendous (similar to the victim of a kidnapping. It might take years or decades to ease on the mind of the victim.)


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We do not have a real Special Agent Dale Cooper. We have a Rain Man/Mr. Mgoo Cooper. Special Agent Dale Cooper has not appeared in the return. I fear that he might not. I get that he might be damaged but they could have repaired that within the 10 episodes we have seen. What they have done to Cooper is awful and the character is awful and not entertaining at all. There is 8 hours left and still time to redeem this. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi Lucas had made Han a blithering idiot after coming out of the frozen state for the bulk of the film . That is essentially what we have here.


That'd be sad, but it's not the same because that movie's about Luke anyway.

And this season is clearly about Cooper. That character is not empty, or mindless. He's struggling. It seems like he's trapped under a spell and has to reach certain milestones to break out. And every few scenes, there's something that produces a jolt and progresses him a little. Still, at this rate it would take way longer than 8 more hours so I expect the wakeup to be sudden. Not to bring back the old Dale necessarily, but to spur him into action and decision. A point where he is clearly making his own decisions.

And really, I love this. In Las Vegas, we're seeing a man sleepwalking in a world that's set up to keep people asleep like that. To just shuffle them through society to maintain the norm, but even asleep Dale Cooper has an impact on everything around him. The few times he's surfaced have been disruptive. The actual awakening is going to be a MAJOR disruption, and the more fleshed out the setting is in Las Vegas the more I can appreciate what sort of person Dale is by how he's affecting and how he's certain to affect it when he wakes up.

This storyline is really underlining what TYPE of hero Dale Cooper is. And that's where your Star Wars metaphor comes back. Because he's not a live by your wits and care for those around you survivor like Han. He's not a passionate political revolutionary like Leia. He's a spiritual, moral, and personal transformational presence like Luke. When Dale Cooper enters your life, even asleep, your life changes. He intuitively picks up the things that are wrong and starts to right them.

So far, he's gone into a casino run by mobsters and walked off with over $400,000 of their money, setting them up for a conflict that will bring them in the same area as law enforcement. (Because the police is investigating Dougie Jones and soon so will the FBI, so he's not a guy those brothers will want disappearing in their casino.)

He sleptwalked into the life of a family that was in debt with that $400+k, after they had lost their primary source of income. In addition to the money, even in his sleep he manages to be a better father and husband than the man he's replaced.

He shuffles to work, thinking of nothing but coffee, and instantly pinpoints a coworker that's pulling one over on his boss. He uncovers major criminal activity in that company.

He reflexively takes out a hitman that attacks him, helping the police to collar a wanted criminal and sending some reverberations through the underworld.

This isn't like Mr. Magoo where it's just funny survival. Everything Dale Cooper does, even when he's not paying attention, is making the lives of those around him BETTER. And the more we see of Las Vegas and Dougie, the more I want Cooper to wake up while STILL THERE so that we can see this effect on those around him turned up to 11,000 as he consciously processes what's going on and what he can do to help these people out.

And this isn't new. This is what he did for Twin Peaks. He improved the lives of those around him through his advice and attention, and he zeroed in on the crime and corruption in town and forced confrontations. That's why the Black Lodge singled him out and took him out of play.

This story is amazing and has made me appreciate the type of hero he is, because I never would have put together that THIS is the effect Dale has on the world if I hadn't seen him sleepwalk through someone else's life.


Wow. This is wonderful!


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Re: When do you think will

Postby Voltaire » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:13 pm

Ragnell wrote:
Voltaire wrote:
yaxomoxay wrote:
Well, we do have a real Cooper... although everyone calls him Dougie.
Unfortunately he's still paying for the huge mistake he did 25 years ago. Although I understand what you mean - we all love our old coffee & pie Coop - we also have to accept that being so shaken and destroyed is as reale as it gets. Lynch just made quirky something that in reality is horrendous (similar to the victim of a kidnapping. It might take years or decades to ease on the mind of the victim.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We do not have a real Special Agent Dale Cooper. We have a Rain Man/Mr. Mgoo Cooper. Special Agent Dale Cooper has not appeared in the return. I fear that he might not. I get that he might be damaged but they could have repaired that within the 10 episodes we have seen. What they have done to Cooper is awful and the character is awful and not entertaining at all. There is 8 hours left and still time to redeem this. Imagine if in Return of the Jedi Lucas had made Han a blithering idiot after coming out of the frozen state for the bulk of the film . That is essentially what we have here.


That'd be sad, but it's not the same because that movie's about Luke anyway.

And this season is clearly about Cooper. That character is not empty, or mindless. He's struggling. It seems like he's trapped under a spell and has to reach certain milestones to break out. And every few scenes, there's something that produces a jolt and progresses him a little. Still, at this rate it would take way longer than 8 more hours so I expect the wakeup to be sudden. Not to bring back the old Dale necessarily, but to spur him into action and decision. A point where he is clearly making his own decisions.

And really, I love this. In Las Vegas, we're seeing a man sleepwalking in a world that's set up to keep people asleep like that. To just shuffle them through society to maintain the norm, but even asleep Dale Cooper has an impact on everything around him. The few times he's surfaced have been disruptive. The actual awakening is going to be a MAJOR disruption, and the more fleshed out the setting is in Las Vegas the more I can appreciate what sort of person Dale is by how he's affecting and how he's certain to affect it when he wakes up.

This storyline is really underlining what TYPE of hero Dale Cooper is. And that's where your Star Wars metaphor comes back. Because he's not a live by your wits and care for those around you survivor like Han. He's not a passionate political revolutionary like Leia. He's a spiritual, moral, and personal transformational presence like Luke. When Dale Cooper enters your life, even asleep, your life changes. He intuitively picks up the things that are wrong and starts to right them.

So far, he's gone into a casino run by mobsters and walked off with over $400,000 of their money, setting them up for a conflict that will bring them in the same area as law enforcement. (Because the police is investigating Dougie Jones and soon so will the FBI, so he's not a guy those brothers will want disappearing in their casino.)

He sleptwalked into the life of a family that was in debt with that $400+k, after they had lost their primary source of income. In addition to the money, even in his sleep he manages to be a better father and husband than the man he's replaced.

He shuffles to work, thinking of nothing but coffee, and instantly pinpoints a coworker that's pulling one over on his boss. He uncovers major criminal activity in that company.

He reflexively takes out a hitman that attacks him, helping the police to collar a wanted criminal and sending some reverberations through the underworld.

This isn't like Mr. Magoo where it's just funny survival. Everything Dale Cooper does, even when he's not paying attention, is making the lives of those around him BETTER. And the more we see of Las Vegas and Dougie, the more I want Cooper to wake up while STILL THERE so that we can see this effect on those around him turned up to 11,000 as he consciously processes what's going on and what he can do to help these people out.

And this isn't new. This is what he did for Twin Peaks. He improved the lives of those around him through his advice and attention, and he zeroed in on the crime and corruption in town and forced confrontations. That's why the Black Lodge singled him out and took him out of play.

This story is amazing and has made me appreciate the type of hero he is, because I never would have put together that THIS is the effect Dale has on the world if I hadn't seen him sleepwalk through someone else's life.


This is a very positive way to look at the Dougie thing. I love the rest of the show but I've had my fill of Dougie. My hope is on rewatching in binge mode when the series is done it will not be so painful. It is painfully boring to watch Dougie scenes at this point.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Terence » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:56 pm

The less i see of Dale Cooper being brain damaged the better.
The storyline is just bad & was not needed,ok he should have being like messed up for 3 to 5 hours.

But to be on part 10 with 8 hours left & its still going on & its getting just plain silly/bad with lame sex scenes now.
I would rather just see Kyle playing the evil doppelganger which is way more cool & interesting..

David & Mark decided on this plot for the majority of the 18 hours & also the majority of Dale Coopers storyline..
They obviously find it amusing to make the main character in this state for so long.

As i said in the disappointed thread.
We could have gotten the more interesting & quiet frankly better storyline of Dale Cooper coming out from the Black Lodge of course being messed for small bit.

Then onto the good Dale tracking down this evil version of himself who using hes identity for the last 25 years.
With help from the FBI & off course the Twin Peaks police department who have inside knowledge of things that can help Dale.

But no we have the storyline of Rainman Dale who can not talk & there are casino owners after him cause he won their money & they now think he caused them to lose money from a insurance claim..

But hey what do i know!
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Re: When do you think will

Postby starmand » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:17 pm

Ragnell wrote:Everything Dale Cooper does, even when he's not paying attention, is making the lives of those around him BETTER.


I couldn't agree more. And let's not forget how he helped a co-worker discover his love of green tea lattes. :)
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Low Entropy » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:46 pm

My personal grief with the "Dougie" plot is the following:
Every society needs those that more or less stand out of the normal social framework in order to advance. Visionaries, dreamers, thinkers, heros...
Imagine someone like Mozart would have decided early on to "settle down" with a wife and kids in a normal job and quit his extravagant life... what a loss for the world that would've been!
Dale Cooper has always been this type of 'positive outsider' for me. Sure, he made lots of friends in Twin Peaks and was accepted into the social circles, but imho, he always stood out with his sheer positivity and wit and dedication, also with his theories and approaches. There was noone quite like him in Twin Peaks - and that says a lot, as TP has a wide host of bizarre characters.
Now if he somehow stays Dougie or finds new joy in a domestic life in suburbia instead, that would feel very disappointing for me. I want the bold Cooper who goes new places, not "Suburban Coop".
Of course, it's all up to David Lynch to offer us what he prefers to offer - but I for one would not enjoy this part of the story then.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Jasper » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:27 pm

Low Entropy wrote:My personal grief with the "Dougie" plot is the following:
Every society needs those that more or less stand out of the normal social framework in order to advance. Visionaries, dreamers, thinkers, heros...
Imagine someone like Mozart would have decided early on to "settle down" with a wife and kids in a normal job and quit his extravagant life... what a loss for the world that would've been!
Dale Cooper has always been this type of 'positive outsider' for me. Sure, he made lots of friends in Twin Peaks and was accepted into the social circles, but imho, he always stood out with his sheer positivity and wit and dedication, also with his theories and approaches. There was noone quite like him in Twin Peaks - and that says a lot, as TP has a wide host of bizarre characters.
Now if he somehow stays Dougie or finds new joy in a domestic life in suburbia instead, that would feel very disappointing for me. I want the bold Cooper who goes new places, not "Suburban Coop".
Of course, it's all up to David Lynch to offer us what he prefers to offer - but I for one would not enjoy this part of the story then.


You can say what you want about suburban living, but as far as families go, I think it's clear that a normal, self-actualizing Cooper not trapped in the lodge for a quarter century would have had a wife and children, and imo it would have made him all the better.

David Lynch has four children, including one who wrote The Secret Diary of Laura Palmer (Jennifer), and one who portrayed Pierre Tremond in the series (Austin), and of course Riley Lynch has appeared in The Return. Lynch was with Mary Sweeney (mother of Riley) for many years, and she won acclaim editing a number of his directorial works, including an episode of Twin Peaks, as well as Fire Walk With Me. She also wrote The Straight Story.

Mozart had a wife and two sons. He may have had more children if he hadn't died at 35. Incidentally, the far more prodigious J.S. Bach fathered 20 children, including hugely successful composers. Mozart himself said of Bach's son, composer Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, "Bach is the Father, we are the Children!"
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:24 pm

Relevant to this thread, a quote from Lynch on Lynch regarding what attracted him to Dune:

"It was the character of Paul [Kyle MacLachlan]: the sleeper who must awaken and become what he was supposed to become."

But which Coop IS the "sleeper"? The logical assumption is DougieCoop.....but DoppelCoop, with his long hair, looks much more like Paul Atreides. ;)
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Dreamy Audrey » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:23 am

I think Cooper will wake up at the end of part 12 or during part 13. Then there's still one third of the story left for him to hunt down his doppelganger. Considering the slow pace of the series, I can't imagine him waking up much later, or else there's not enough time left for him to deal with his doppelganger. Unless Hawk, Albert and Gordon are going to do all the work and have to return the doppelganger to the Black Lodge in order for the real Cooper to wake up. Then we really might have to wait until the last part :(
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:42 pm

Dougie is already wearing a suit similar to the one Agent Cooper used to wear. And we've already seen him have little awakenings with coffee, an owl, the word "Sycamore", various law inforcement imagery, the flag, and now cherry pie. Where can they go beyond Cherry Pie?

Narratively, it would appear he is close to awakening. Very close.

Of course, they might stretch it out until the very end, but it feels close to wrapping up now, especially since he's now eaten cherry pie - and met the woman he first met in the casino. It feels like it's wrapping up. So I think he'll awake next episode. If he doesn't, then it might be that he won't
Spoiler:
(though that wouldn't explain how he's driving in a teaser trailer)

or that it will be closer to the end. But I feel it will be Episode 12.
Last edited by Jonah on Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:42 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby alreadygoneplaces » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:24 pm

alreadygoneplaces wrote:Sorry to be a stuck record, but can people please put spoiler tags around events from trailers, stills from scenes which haven't aired yet, revealing info from cast interviews etc in tags. It's getting pretty annoying.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:29 pm

I didn't think trailers were considered spoilers? Especially ones that aired so early on and have surely been seen by everyone? But okay. I hope referring to events in episodes that have already aired aren't considered spoilers too. My thinking was that if something has been released widely - a trailer or an episode - then it's no longer a spoiler. Anyway, done.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby alreadygoneplaces » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:06 pm

Jonah wrote:I didn't think trailers were considered spoilers? Especially ones that aired so early on and have surely been seen by everyone? But okay. I hope referring to events in episodes that have already aired aren't considered spoilers too. My thinking was that if something has been released widely - a trailer or an episode - then it's no longer a spoiler. Anyway, done.


There's obviously no problem talking about the actual episodes, but I consider anything that gives something away that hasn't actually happened yet on the show to be a spoiler (including trailers- I personally don't know why anyone would want to watch a trailer for a show they're definitely going to watch). I don't mean to be a dick about it and sorry if it comes across that way, but I'm not the only one to have purposefully avoided this stuff- I've already had my expectations on a few different plot elements shaped by untagged spoiler info and it's quite frustrating.
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Re: When do you think will "Dougie" snap back to being Cooper? (Spoilers)

Postby Jonah » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:15 pm

Ok, I understand. I fixed the post. Anyway, at least one (or both) of the scenes I previously mentioned could merely be shot for the trailer as promotional footage - or even left on the cutting room floor. It's not certain those brief glimpses will even be in the show itself. Sometimes they'll shoot an actor in familiar clothes from an old series or show a glimpse of something as a tease - and it turns out not to be in the show itself. I have no idea what will happen in the upcoming episodes. But based on what we've seen so far, I think he'll snap out of it soon. But this is Lynch so who knows? I could easily see him never waking up or only at the very end. I think that would be disappointing though, so am hoping for the reasons I've outlined above he'll be back soon.

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