Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

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KnewItsPa
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:53 am

Novalis wrote:Could it perhaps make Cooper's detour through the life of Dougie seem more perilous or frustrating? I don't know.


No, she's a character in her own right, not simply there to prop up the male protagonists narrative arc. Imagining she must be subservient to the male plot cuts right to the heart of the Gender issues here.

Novalis wrote:Her behaviour lacks one of the most distinctive features of clinical narcissism, which is the pomposity and grandeur, the over-inflated sense of prestige.


It's right there in the grinning at the over-inflated Jungle-Jim and whinging about the car, her constant frustrations are at not having her over-inflated sense of prestige fulfilled.

Novalis wrote:My preference for this reading might be more charitable towards Janey but it is based on a number of assumptions about the world which KIP might not share.


No, I'd say rather you're attempting a reading of TP based on pseudo-economic theory, rather than approaching it as a pscyhologically driven surrealist drama. Less assumptions about the world, more about what you're carrying in your critical tool-bag.

The amount of stretching, ignoring the text to preserve the idea of Janey-E as an entirely 'good' person is incredible. Maybe some audiences have internalised the expression of narcissistic behaviours that they think of not showing affection to children, expecting men to provide material goods, whinging about posessions, being annoyed about having to do anything at all that doesn't provide instant gratification, and sexing on mentally handicapped people as normal, healthy, human behaviour.

On the most basic level, from Blue Velvet on through Twin Peaks, Lynch has been exposing the darker side of the middle-classes. I see no real difference here. I think Naomi put in a great performance, just a shame so many people seem to have missed what was being aimed at.

Novalis wrote:it could be argued that landing in the care of a (alleged) gold-digger, an insurance boss who's blind to the fraud going on in his own office, and a dangerous and violent pair of mob brothers yet still finding them heart-warming could indicate Cooper was never more asleep than when he woke up. I mean, it's a real stretch, as I see it, but it's possible. . It definitely adds a bleaker twist to the tale. I don't know that I need it to be this bleak though. I don't go for cynical 'gritty realism' at all, and to be honest I can't see why Lynch would rubbish his own tenderness.


This isn't really about gender, but I largely agree with the negative reading of the vegas characters, and the superficial 'heart'. Again, it's thematically consistent, it's the ant in the ear in the grass behind the picket fence, it's the grieving well-to-do father who murdered his daughter. Beyond that, when Richard/Coop meets up with Cassie/Laura, she's just murdered someone, and the eagle-scout FBI man just walks on by. It's not particularly gritty or realistic, but exposing the darker underbelly.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:34 am

KnewItsPa wrote:
Novalis wrote:Could it perhaps make Cooper's detour through the life of Dougie seem more perilous or frustrating? I don't know.


No, she's a character in her own right, not simply there to prop up the male protagonists narrative arc. Imagining she must be subservient to the male plot cuts right to the heart of the Gender issues here.

Novalis wrote:Her behaviour lacks one of the most distinctive features of clinical narcissism, which is the pomposity and grandeur, the over-inflated sense of prestige.


It's right there in the grinning at the over-inflated Jungle-Jim and whinging about the car, her constant frustrations are at not having her over-inflated sense of prestige fulfilled.

Novalis wrote:My preference for this reading might be more charitable towards Janey but it is based on a number of assumptions about the world which KIP might not share.


No, I'd say rather you're attempting a reading of TP based on pseudo-economic theory, rather than approaching it as a pscyhologically driven surrealist drama. Less assumptions about the world, more about what you're carrying in your critical tool-bag.

The amount of stretching, ignoring the text to preserve the idea of Janey-E as an entirely 'good' person is incredible. Maybe some audiences have internalised the expression of narcissistic behaviours that they think of not showing affection to children, expecting men to provide material goods, whinging about posessions, being annoyed about having to do anything at all that doesn't provide instant gratification, and sexing on mentally handicapped people as normal, healthy, human behaviour.

On the most basic level, from Blue Velvet on through Twin Peaks, Lynch has been exposing the darker side of the middle-classes. I see no real difference here. I think Naomi put in a great performance, just a shame so many people seem to have missed what was being aimed at.

Novalis wrote:it could be argued that landing in the care of a (alleged) gold-digger, an insurance boss who's blind to the fraud going on in his own office, and a dangerous and violent pair of mob brothers yet still finding them heart-warming could indicate Cooper was never more asleep than when he woke up. I mean, it's a real stretch, as I see it, but it's possible. . It definitely adds a bleaker twist to the tale. I don't know that I need it to be this bleak though. I don't go for cynical 'gritty realism' at all, and to be honest I can't see why Lynch would rubbish his own tenderness.


This isn't really about gender, but I largely agree with the negative reading of the vegas characters, and the superficial 'heart'. Again, it's thematically consistent, it's the ant in the ear in the grass behind the picket fence, it's the grieving well-to-do father who murdered his daughter. Beyond that, when Richard/Coop meets up with Cassie/Laura, she's just murdered someone, and the eagle-scout FBI man just walks on by. It's not particularly gritty or realistic, but exposing the darker underbelly.


Well, we've reached that point where we're both pointing at the textual evidence and wondering why the other one can't see how it supports our reading. We've exchanged (very mild) insults about 'cod psychology' and 'pseudo-economic' theory aimed at dismissing each other's soundings, and we're both calling each other's reading 'a stretch', so it seems we're both somewhat invested in our own interpretations and available to defend them.

This is interesting to think about, and it highlights the multiple ways of construing 'a text' from the given stimuli. I'm going to step back from myself a little now and give more thought, and perhaps a little more direction (given the topic of gender), to how I view the character of Janey-E Jones and her motivations. I'll definitely be returning to this discussion in the fullness of time.
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KnewItsPa
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:11 am

Novalis wrote:Well, we've reached that point where we're both pointing at the textual evidence and wondering why the other one can't see how it supports our reading..


On the contrary, I haven't seen any text being presented for the 'tough cookie' reading, but rather that those following that singular reading are assuming it without providing supporting evidence.

I do think a Marxist reading of Janey-E is somewhat fruitful, in terms of how socially constructed roles of women makes what would otherwise be recognised as pathological behaviour acceptable, it's a fair point. As de Beauvoir would point out, conforming to socially defined roles is a form of tyranny, social control, and TP:TR is perpetuating these narrow images of women, ultimately I think we end up at the same destination. Where I would baulk is attmpting to apply a purely Marxist lense to the whole of TP:TR, when a pseudo-psychological reading would appear to be more relevant, with the surrealist themes and strongly Jungian narrative drivers.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:38 am

Manwith wrote:
sylvia_north wrote: Women rule post production. Which means we have final say on the movie Literally the reason why the first Star Wars trilogy was largely phenomenal, but the prequels a hot mess. George Lucas divorced his editor.[/i]


All that was wrong with the prequel trilogy was the editing? You really believe that? I would suggest the problem began with the script, an editor has to make do with what was filmed.

"Final say on the movie?" Why would you think the editor gets final say over the movie? This seems like wishful thinking.

.



Depending on the editor/director team, especially if they're married. The joke wouldnt be funny if there wasnt truth in it. Absolute control of the auteur is wishful thinking.

Cori Glazier- madame silencio herself- and Mary Sweeney could have done A LOT under DL's nose, during production and in post. They are the filters. They are the ones doing the preliminary judging of takes and what's matching, what's missing, taking extensive notes, watching the monitor in a way the director is not because he's watching the performances, organizing the raw material in documentation during production and then cobbling it together after.

Obviously that person I was quoting - star wars doesn't interest me- was speaking generally about the "final say." Scripty, which is what I do, and editor do have a huge influence, during and after and sometimes even preproduction meetings depend on our input about continuity. We are there to make the suggestions the director is too busy/distracted to notice, and note the bad takes and talk directly to the director about them- that's our job.

We know how to get our suggestions heard because our specialized judgments are valued. If Lynch uses the same female crew again and again, it's because they provide something he depends on. Final say doesnt even exist without passing through us.

If my pastry chef partner and I have 5 pieces of pie that you provided the ingredients for, and we throw 2 away, then tell you 1 of them sucks, and one of them needs ice cream you dont have, and we have hundreds of more pieces of pie to compare and you know we've made more pies than you have, you will pick the pieces of pie that we tell you to all the while making it seem like it was your decision, because that's what we're paid to do.

If all the pieces of pie have necrophilia and misogyny in them, there's obviously nothing we can really do about that, unfortunately.


Anyway, popped in to share this article about how media commonly normalizes female oppression. How many boxes does TR tick?


https://radfemimages.wordpress.com/the- ... ecrophilia
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:53 am

sylvia_north wrote:Anyway, popped in to share this article about how media commonly normalizes female oppression. How many boxes does TR tick?


https://radfemimages.wordpress.com/the- ... ecrophilia


I think in general in TR men are predators- they prey both on other men and on women, though with the women the predatory behavior is sexualized in a way that it isn't with men preying on men. There is occasionally a female predator- Chantal and perhaps Becky during her more drugged up jealous moments- and Judy seems to be associated with a female Lion eating a gazelle- though oddly enough we never see Judy enjoying her killing- Sarah Palmer seems reluctant in the one scene where she kills the biker.

So I'd say that TR normalizes the view of men as predators, and women (but not only women) as prey- though there are counter examples that weaken the argument, Chantal being the biggest.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:25 am

I haven’t been active in this thread because I don’t feel particularly qualified, as an entitled white male. But I’ve enjoyed following the perspectives shared. As things are slowing down on the board overall, I thought I’d repost something I originally said in the Part 8 thread last week:

I know there's been a bit of debate, in the Gender thread and elsewhere, about the merits/wisdom of making a mother figure the "big bad." It is interesting that she is brought into the world through the work of a team of predominantly men, striving to build a "tool" that could lay waste to vast swathes of Earth. Judy may only be "evil" from our perspective...remember Mark's book talking about how the interests of the spirits/aliens may not be traditionally good or bad but simply beyond our conception. I posit (just thinking aloud) that Judy is a facet of the Mother archetype that Native cultures often worship, who is usually closely tied to Earth and its fertility. As human society simultaneously moved toward phallocentricism and decreased respect for the planet,
culminating in the invention of a potentially world-destroying weapon (the ultimate act of presumptuous machismo), the Earth-protecting/vengeful element of Mother, Judy, stepped in. Thus, she and Bob and her other spawn are only "evil" from our limited perspective, because they are working against our interests -- trying to poison humanity and ultimately destroy us so that the universe can survive. Of course, they seem to predominantly do that by preying on the weaknesses mankind already has, thus using the exact thing they are fighting against to bring about our downfall (sort of like the "Monsters on Maple Street" Twilight Zone episode on a global scale). So, the bomb detonation did not "birth evil," or even a new type of evil, but rather, caused the elemental forces of nature to say, "Enough is enough, mankind...now we're fighting back." In this scenario, I'm not sure what to think about seemingly more benevolent spirits like the Fireman or Mike. Are they simply more sympathetic to human concerns, or are we just pawns to them in reaching some other end?

I'm not necessarily endorsing this interpretation, but I find it interesting, and it's definitely consistent with the themes of Mark's book.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:55 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I haven’t been active in this thread because I don’t feel particularly qualified, as an entitled white male. But I’ve enjoyed following the perspectives shared. As things are slowing down on the board overall, I thought I’d repost something I originally said in the Part 8 thread last week:

I know there's been a bit of debate, in the Gender thread and elsewhere, about the merits/wisdom of making a mother figure the "big bad." It is interesting that she is brought into the world through the work of a team of predominantly men, striving to build a "tool" that could lay waste to vast swathes of Earth. Judy may only be "evil" from our perspective...remember Mark's book talking about how the interests of the spirits/aliens may not be traditionally good or bad but simply beyond our conception. I posit (just thinking aloud) that Judy is a facet of the Mother archetype that Native cultures often worship, who is usually closely tied to Earth and its fertility


This theory contradicts the fact that the native character in Twin Peaks (Hawk) implies Judy is an unspeakable evil. There's also nothing in Secret History to suggest any native person worships Judy. The only individuals who do seem to worship her are Aleister Crowley's cult, and they are not native people.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am

Hmm I don’t recall Hawk calling her evil. He said Frank never wants to know about her, which fits with Judy being an enemy to humanity, but not necessarily objectively evil. Gordon is the only person I recall calling her evil. I might be misremembering though?

My thinking was that she is a facet of the Mother Earth being Naitve peoples worshiped, but she is the dark side/enforcer. Anyway, like I said, not sure I even buy it, but thought it was interesting to think about.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:01 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Hmm I don’t recall Hawk calling her evil. He said Frank never wants to know about her, which fits with Judy being an enemy to humanity, but not necessarily objectively evil. Gordon is the only person I recall calling her evil. I might be misremembering though?

My thinking was that she is a facet of the Mother Earth being Naitve peoples worshiped, but she is the dark side/enforcer. Anyway, like I said, not sure I even buy it, but thought it was interesting to think about.


I think you are correct that Hawk doesn't call her evil, but I think it's implied. If she was a fertility godess native people worship I don't think he would have reacted the way he did.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:55 pm

Ashley Judd front and center at Harvey Weinstein expose, Mark Frost retweeted someone that said surprised it's taken so long to talk about this open secret

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/us/h ... tions.html
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Deep Thought » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:55 pm

sylvia_north wrote:Ashley Judd front and center at Harvey Weinstein expose, Mark Frost retweeted someone that said surprised it's taken so long to talk about this open secret

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/us/h ... tions.html


I'm not surprised by Hollywood slime culture anymore. Entourage (HBO) had Weinstein pegged years ago, but even they left out the abuse and criminality. Those closest to the depths of the human abyss are most qualified to comment on it, so there is a trade off.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookyDollhouse » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:48 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I haven’t been active in this thread because I don’t feel particularly qualified, as an entitled white male.


Easily the most delicious sentence I've ever read on this forum. Keep it up folks, I need more!
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:09 pm

An interesting article - more about FWWM, but some tie-ins to The Return

https://www.slantmagazine.com/dvd/revie ... with-me-bd
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby SpookyDollhouse » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:15 am

Hester Prynne wrote:An interesting article - more about FWWM, but some tie-ins to The Return

https://www.slantmagazine.com/dvd/revie ... with-me-bd


The opening paragraph tells me everything I need to know and then some.
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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby sylvia_north » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:02 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/opin ... f-men.html

Amber Tamblyn taking James Woods to task was impressive. This follow up is very good.
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