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Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:13 pm
by Manwith
KnewItsPa wrote:
sylvia_north wrote:The stories we tell shape the culture we live in as well as they are shaped by the culture.


Did we get any positive images of women at all in TP:TR?


Norma is positive. She takes control of her business and asserts her contract rights. She loved Ed but isn't defined by him.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:23 pm
by Mr. Reindeer
fluorescent light wrote:i unfortunately didn't see this thread until recently, have tried to catch up on the last few pages and thanks to those who are doing good critical analysis here...

seems like something should be added about the odd and painful-to-watch diane-cooper sex scene, which seemed to me to be trivialized. it's complicated by the richard/linda dynamic and there were aspects of diane's clear pain that i felt were important to know about, but the musical choice especially seemed absurd and grotesque given what we know about her as a character and what we were witnessing.


I disagree that the Coop/Diane sex scene was "trivialized." It was meant to be exactly as uncomfortable as it is. The Platters song is used a tad ironically, but the contrast between the song's romantic longing and Diane's "I just need this to be over with" expressions are powerful, especially as the song is alternated with creepy "drone" sounds. The musical choice was indeed "grotesque," but that was the whole point.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:42 pm
by ThumbsUp
I'm still working my way through this much-needed thread, but I was hoping to discuss some of the themes that we can take from the finale.

In other threads many of us are discussing Cooper's hero-saviour complex and obsession with helping people in trouble, especially women. The examples go on and on and on: Audrey, Annie, Diane, Janey-E, Caroline, Maddy, even the waitress at Judy's.

But perhaps there is no better example than his co-hero of the show, the woman he's shared a psychic and spiritual connection with despite distance and time, The One, Laura Palmer.

Cooper and Laura are the heroes of Twin Peaks and both undergo samsara-like cycles of pain that span time and parallel dimensions - but in different ways.

I think Laura is a classic Lynchian portrayal of a woman: in trouble and a target of violence and abuse. When she's "reincarnated" as Carrie, it still seems that she leads a pretty crappy life despite being "saved" and having survived in the new timeline. She allows Cooper to whisk her away when the supposed knight in shining armour shows up at her door on his all-important quest.

Meanwhile, Coop exists as an example of male fragility and an almost exhausting example of relentless male white knighting. My friend pointed this out after we watched the finale, and mentioned reviews online that say Coop essentially views Laura as an object that needs to be saved, or as a goal that makes him feel better about himself. (His entire Black Lodge trial in season 2 was premised on the guilt he felt about failing to protect various people.) And in the end, it's his hubris and obsession with being The Good Guy that broke the timeline and screwed everything up in the season 3 finale.

Laura and Coop seem to help generate each others' infinitely looping timelines of pain and suffering, and in very Lynchian terms: that Laura still, to this day, exists as an object to Cooper that will bolster his own view of himself as the chivalrous FBI-boy scout who saves the day. (Of course, Cooper is a much more nuanced character than that, as we have gotten to know the various facets of his identity over the years, quite literally in season 3.)

I love both Laura and Coop as characters and I did enjoy the finale. But I was still disappointed, considering the weeks of build up of "Laura is the one" - and in the end, Coop still viewed her as a damsel to "find" (in Leland's words), which rendered a pretty bleak-seeming outcome for all involved.

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the finale.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:54 pm
by ThumbsUp
KnewItsPa wrote:
sylvia_north wrote:The stories we tell shape the culture we live in as well as they are shaped by the culture.


Did we get any positive images of women at all in TP:TR?


My friend's girlfriend said of Janey-E, "now that's how you write a female character." I believe it was the episode where Janey has to give the thugs their money.

I loved Janey-E. At first, I thought she was going to be a trope of a nagging, uptight wife, but we saw so many shades and colours of her personality over the episodes, and her character seemed to change as her relationship with Dougie did. (Then again, I guess you could argue she needed her relationship with a man to grow and realise her full potential as a character...)

I dunno, but I thought Janey-E ended up being nuanced and very likable.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:35 am
by KnewItsPa
Manwith wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:
sylvia_north wrote:The stories we tell shape the culture we live in as well as they are shaped by the culture.


Did we get any positive images of women at all in TP:TR?


Norma is positive. She takes control of her business and asserts her contract rights. She loved Ed but isn't defined by him.


Yeah. I'd go with that. She is also highly conservative in choosing 'family' over 'business'.

ThumbsUp wrote:I dunno, but I thought Janey-E ended up being nuanced and very likable.


I found Janey-E was very superficial, materialistic, (ab)using men for her own gain. She didn't really seem to care about Dougie, or Sonny-Jim, just wanted a new car and something to sex with.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:38 am
by powerleftist
I haven't seen anybody mentioning that Janey-E raped Cooper, even echoing pedophilia because Cooper is like a child at that moment. Cooper could not have resisted sex, so it was rape.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:31 am
by snusmumrik
powerleftist wrote:I haven't seen anybody mentioning that Janey-E raped Cooper, even echoing pedophilia because Cooper is like a child at that moment. Cooper could not have resisted sex, so it was rape.


Women are devoid of power in our society, so they are unable to rape by definition!


powerleftist wrote:pedophilia because Cooper is like a child at that moment


A, oops! I don't know what to do with that.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:42 am
by Novalis
powerleftist wrote:I haven't seen anybody mentioning that Janey-E raped Cooper, even echoing pedophilia because Cooper is like a child at that moment. Cooper could not have resisted sex, so it was rape.


Cooper resisted being spiked by Ike pretty well.

I don't know, saying Cooper is a victim of Janey feels like a somewhat disingenuous, MRA argument. A male-appropriated language of outrage and moral panic could easily deflect attention away from the fact that the acknowledged victims of sexual assault, from S1 onwards, have always been women, and the the purpose of young and attractive women in this continuity has far too frequently been to escort or accommodate male desire in some capacity, and not to function as autonomous agents of a collective womanhood. The single case of CooperDougie, however ambiguous a reading might be made of that one purposefully ridiculous sex scene with Janey, does not erase all that.

I'm not saying that anyone intended to derail this conversation, just that the arguments being made here risk being taken as male whataboutery.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:56 am
by KnewItsPa
powerleftist wrote:I haven't seen anybody mentioning that Janey-E raped Cooper, even echoing pedophilia because Cooper is like a child at that moment. Cooper could not have resisted sex, so it was rape.


I believe it was mentioned upstream. I largely concur, Janey-E just uses Dougie as an object for her own gratification, with barely any recognition he's a person in his own right (not that he really is a person in his own right - but she doesn't know that! ) Not a nice person at all.

Naomi does a number of these 'cold' stares followed by a slight smile, as she gets what she wants. It's a great performance. I do wonder if her cold, manipulative nastiness is hidden behind how pretty she looks tho.

Nothing compared to the horrors of red-diane sleeping with whole-coop whilst remembering full well bad-coop raped white-diane.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:26 am
by powerleftist
My Janey-E raping Cooper message was kind of a joke. I don't really think it was raping --after all, she thought he was his husband. It was food for thought, to add another perspective on an already uncomfortable sex scene.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:19 am
by Cipher
Personally, I don't care about any demographic's broad portrayal in the vast and influential world of fiction unless it affects me directly.

EDIT -- Beaten by the post above or didn't see it becaus of the page jump; my bad.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:36 am
by fluorescent light
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
fluorescent light wrote:i unfortunately didn't see this thread until recently, have tried to catch up on the last few pages and thanks to those who are doing good critical analysis here...

seems like something should be added about the odd and painful-to-watch diane-cooper sex scene, which seemed to me to be trivialized. it's complicated by the richard/linda dynamic and there were aspects of diane's clear pain that i felt were important to know about, but the musical choice especially seemed absurd and grotesque given what we know about her as a character and what we were witnessing.


I disagree that the Coop/Diane sex scene was "trivialized." It was meant to be exactly as uncomfortable as it is. The Platters song is used a tad ironically, but the contrast between the song's romantic longing and Diane's "I just need this to be over with" expressions are powerful, especially as the song is alternated with creepy "drone" sounds. The musical choice was indeed "grotesque," but that was the whole point.


yes, it is quite obvious that was the whole point...that it was a clearly conscious choice to use a scene of a rape survivor having sex with her rapist to bludgeon us with that point was what I was pointing out

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:43 am
by Manwith
KnewItsPa wrote:
Manwith wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:
Did we get any positive images of women at all in TP:TR?


Norma is positive. She takes control of her business and asserts her contract rights. She loved Ed but isn't defined by him.


Yeah. I'd go with that. She is also highly conservative in choosing 'family' over 'business'.


She didn't *really* choose family over business. Her rejection of the franchise parallels Lynch's view of art. I.E. he insists on final cut and doesn't want anyone else to direct Twin Peaks anymore. So she's Lynch's version of an ideal businessperson as well as a family person.

I also see Nadine as fairly positive- much more positive than in the original show. You could say it's a bit late for her to turn herself around- but she ended up on a positive note. And she did accomplish her dream of running a drape running business.

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:30 am
by ThumbsUp
KnewItsPa wrote:
Manwith wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:
Did we get any positive images of women at all in TP:TR?


ThumbsUp wrote:I dunno, but I thought Janey-E ended up being nuanced and very likable.


I found Janey-E was very superficial, materialistic, (ab)using men for her own gain. She didn't really seem to care about Dougie, or Sonny-Jim, just wanted a new car and something to sex with.


Well, to be fair, she was worried about the car because her prostitute-loving husband got it blown up by gangsters who were on his trail to collect a massive gambling debt that crippled the wellbeing of the entire family.

If anything, I thought Janey-E was showing him TOO MUCH love and concern which is where part of the humour came from. Her goodbye to Coop at the end didn't seem too superficial to me. See also: her anger over him missing SJ's birthday, her speechless gratitude toward the Mitchums when they got him a jungle gym, sticking by Dougie's side through thick and thin at the police station, driving him to work, etc., a diatribe to the gangsters about being sensitive to others' pain and suffering (just now realising - garmonbozia reference?).

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:35 am
by Cipher
ThumbsUp wrote:diatribe to the gangsters about being sensitive to others' pain and suffering (just now realising - garmonbozia reference?).

Garmonbozia is pain and sorrow. You're thinking of the off brand.