Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

Manwith
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:54 pm

sylvia_north wrote: Women rule post production. Which means we have final say on the movie Literally the reason why the first Star Wars trilogy was largely phenomenal, but the prequels a hot mess. George Lucas divorced his editor.[/i]


All that was wrong with the prequel trilogy was the editing? You really believe that? I would suggest the problem began with the script, an editor has to make do with what was filmed.

"Final say on the movie?" Why would you think the editor gets final say over the movie? This seems like wishful thinking.

Here's an interesting thing I read online. The film Labyrinth, directed by Jim Henson, was edited by John Grover.

Yet the following quote from Jim Henson shows the director and producer (George Lucas) was making many of the decisions, and George Lucas had strong opinions on how to edit it:

"When we hit the editing, I did the first cut, and then George was heavily involved on bringing it to the final cut. After that, I took it over again and did the next few months of post-production and audio." Henson went on to explain, "When you edit a film with somebody else you have to compromise. I always want to go one way, and George goes another way, but we each took turns trading off, giving and taking. George tends to be very action-oriented and he cuts dialogue quite tight; I tend to cut looser, and go for more lyrical pauses, which can slow the story. So, I loosen up his tightness, and he tightens my looseness."

I'm not saying editors aren't important, but they don't have creative control over the movie's final form.
User avatar
KnewItsPa
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:54 pm

ScarFace32 wrote:
Manwith wrote:
her anger over him missing SJ's birthday

Entirely consistent with spoled houswife trope. Why didn't HE look after the kid, so SHE didn't have to.


Lol what?


She's not angry with him for missing the kids birthday.
She's angry with him for her having to deal with the kids birthday.

Get it now?

asmahan wrote:What about the spooky jumping man or head-crushing, doppelcoop-reviving woodsmen? Definitely some negativity there.


The woodsmen, yeah. I forgot about them. And the green glove kid.

Manwith wrote:I think Sarah and the experiment are the same character, no need to count them twice though I realize it's up to interpretation.. You forgot American Girl on the good supernatural side. She saves Cooper from the experiment.


Yeah, the whole blaming the mother thing is quite out-there in its Freudian levels of misogyny.
"Crack the code, solve the crime."
Manwith
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:59 pm

KnewItsPa wrote:
ScarFace32 wrote:
Manwith wrote:
her anger over him missing SJ's birthday

Entirely consistent with spoled houswife trope. Why didn't HE look after the kid, so SHE didn't have to.


Lol what?


She's not angry with him for missing the kids birthday.
She's angry with him for her having to deal with the kids birthday.

Get it now?



Yeah... I disagree with this. I feel you are wayyyyy overreaching with that one.

Jane-E isn't spoiled, she's worried that without money her family won't be safe. She's motivated by primal needs for shelter, safety, and security. The money she is worried over isn't for her own sake. And she's upset the father of her kid missed his son's birthday like any mom would be.
User avatar
KnewItsPa
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:02 am

Manwith wrote: she's worried that without money her family won't be safe. She's motivated by primal needs for shelter, safety, and security.


... and the fact that she expects a MAN to be the route to achieving those things is kind of the point.

You'd have to ignore the total lack of affection or concern shown towards her child, to do anything but read her as a shallow, entitled, two-dimensional sponging housewife.
"Crack the code, solve the crime."
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:08 am

KnewItsPa wrote:
Manwith wrote: she's worried that without money her family won't be safe. She's motivated by primal needs for shelter, safety, and security.


... and the fact that she expects a MAN to be the route to achieving those things is kind of the point.

You'd have to ignore the total lack of affection or concern shown towards her child, to do anything but read her as a shallow, entitled, two-dimensional sponging housewife.


I didn't see her as "entitled" at all. We don't exactly see her lounging around the house watching TV. She is always moving, always working to hold the family together and get everyone where they need to be. She's essentially raising two children (and we get the sense that this was the case even before Dougie was catatonic). The fact that she doesn't get to stop and smell the roses too often and just spend time with her kid doesn't mean she's spoiled; she's frazzled and overburdened.
User avatar
KnewItsPa
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:28 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:
Manwith wrote: she's worried that without money her family won't be safe. She's motivated by primal needs for shelter, safety, and security.


... and the fact that she expects a MAN to be the route to achieving those things is kind of the point.

You'd have to ignore the total lack of affection or concern shown towards her child, to do anything but read her as a shallow, entitled, two-dimensional sponging housewife.


I didn't see her as "entitled" at all. We don't exactly see her lounging around the house watching TV. She is always moving, always working to hold the family together and get everyone where they need to be. She's essentially raising two children (and we get the sense that this was the case even before Dougie was catatonic). The fact that she doesn't get to stop and smell the roses too often and just spend time with her kid doesn't mean she's spoiled; she's frazzled and overburdened.


She doesn't look or act frazzled or overburdened, Junkie Mom next door looks frazzled and overburdened. Nor does Janey-E express concern for anyone except herself, least of all Dougle or Sonny-jim. She's shipping Dougie to work, because thats where she needs him to be, to earn money for her. HE obviously needs psychiatric help and to be somewhere else. We might not see her lazing around watching TV, or going to the gym or any of the million of other things she might be doing besides having a job or showing affection to her child, but based on what we do see the character doing, she really is quite straightforward.
"Crack the code, solve the crime."
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:41 am

KnewItsPa wrote:She doesn't look or act frazzled or overburdened, Junkie Mom next door looks frazzled and overburdened. Nor does Janey-E express concern for anyone except herself, least of all Dougle or Sonny-jim. She's shipping Dougie to work, because thats where she needs him to be, to earn money for her. HE obviously needs psychiatric help and to be somewhere else. We might not see her lazing around watching TV, or going to the gym or any of the million of other things she might be doing besides having a job or showing affection to her child, but based on what we do see the character doing, she really is quite straightforward.


Respectfully disagree. She has exactly the demeanor of many frazzled/burned-out parents I know: she comes across as constantly exasperated and overworked. And we never see her doing ANYTHING for herself. I get your argument that everything she does is to increase her own financial security, and there's an argument to be made from the text (her obsession with how terrible their cars are), but I don't buy it. She makes breakfast for them and doesn't even sit down to eat, she shuttles her worthless husband (who somehow lost his car) to the doctor and the police station, and fights his battles with gangsters and Las Vegas PD. She's presented as a tough woman who is fiercely protective of her family and endlessly gives of her own energy and time. I don't question the legitimacy of your reading, but it's far from the only interpretation.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Novalis
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:05 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:She doesn't look or act frazzled or overburdened, Junkie Mom next door looks frazzled and overburdened. Nor does Janey-E express concern for anyone except herself, least of all Dougle or Sonny-jim. She's shipping Dougie to work, because thats where she needs him to be, to earn money for her. HE obviously needs psychiatric help and to be somewhere else. We might not see her lazing around watching TV, or going to the gym or any of the million of other things she might be doing besides having a job or showing affection to her child, but based on what we do see the character doing, she really is quite straightforward.


Respectfully disagree. She has exactly the demeanor of many frazzled/burned-out parents I know: she comes across as constantly exasperated and overworked. And we never see her doing ANYTHING for herself. I get your argument that everything she does is to increase her own financial security, and there's an argument to be made from the text (her obsession with how terrible their cars are), but I don't buy it. She makes breakfast for them and doesn't even sit down to eat, she shuttles her worthless husband (who somehow lost his car) to the doctor and the police station, and fights his battles with gangsters and Las Vehas PD. She's presented as a tough woman who is fiercely protective of her family and endlessly gives of her own energy and time. I don't question the legitimacy of your reading, but it's far from the only interpretation.


Agree very much with this. If Janey has any expectations of Dougie beyond being able to structure his life meaningfully and productively, then they are totally commensurate with the normal expectations of any hard-working and conscientious mother. As for looking frazzled and overburdened, I would suggest rewatching pt. 4 with a eye on Janey-E's general demeanour and reaction to the return of Dougie, late at night, after three days absence. She's at the end of her tether and slaps him hard. That's not the reaction of a gold digger but of someone who has deeply invested time and passion in the daily business of making and maintaining a family, and is deeply concerned over what is happening to its integrity.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
claaa7
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:47 am

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby claaa7 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:39 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
KnewItsPa wrote:She doesn't look or act frazzled or overburdened, Junkie Mom next door looks frazzled and overburdened. Nor does Janey-E express concern for anyone except herself, least of all Dougle or Sonny-jim. She's shipping Dougie to work, because thats where she needs him to be, to earn money for her. HE obviously needs psychiatric help and to be somewhere else. We might not see her lazing around watching TV, or going to the gym or any of the million of other things she might be doing besides having a job or showing affection to her child, but based on what we do see the character doing, she really is quite straightforward.


Respectfully disagree. She has exactly the demeanor of many frazzled/burned-out parents I know: she comes across as constantly exasperated and overworked. And we never see her doing ANYTHING for herself. I get your argument that everything she does is to increase her own financial security, and there's an argument to be made from the text (her obsession with how terrible their cars are), but I don't buy it. She makes breakfast for them and doesn't even sit down to eat, she shuttles her worthless husband (who somehow lost his car) to the doctor and the police station, and fights his battles with gangsters and Las Vegas PD. She's presented as a tough woman who is fiercely protective of her family and endlessly gives of her own energy and time. I don't question the legitimacy of your reading, but it's far from the only interpretation.


this is very much the way i read Janey-E as well.. she's a good person trying to hold her family together but she is also very frustrated and stressed out. of course all overburdened people doesn't look like the 1-1-9 mom next door, lots of people that are fighting heavy inner battles look physically healthy. it is clear to us that Dougie was very slow witted before Cooper came to Las Vegas which is why both Janey and the doctor doesn't find something extremely odd about his behavior. of course it's exaggerated (a man like that could hardly hold down an office type of job for example) but for the sake of the story and the many hilarious situations it invites i have no problems suspending my belief a little bit. but as Pa say, Janey-E really is quite straightforward, as a tough woman who is fiercely protective of her family that is (to directly quote Reindeer).

there were some strange female choices in The Return and i sure wouldn't have minded to dig a little deeper into one or two more female characters on the show, but Janey-E was very well written and acted imo. there ARE still many, many woman who are at home, taking care of the home and the family while the man works, and there's situations where its the other way around. not everybody are career oriented - that doesn't say anything about a man or a female being strong or not, just that they have other priorities.
User avatar
KnewItsPa
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:51 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby KnewItsPa » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:14 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:She makes breakfast for them and doesn't even sit down to eat,


This is true, and a good observation. Look how skinny she is. Janey-E not eating is about her preserving the self-image, not making a sacrifice, which is what drives the need for new cars and shiny things. It does raise further questions about eating disorders, bringing to mind Sarahs consuming mother / turkey jerky obsession, Norma's role as food provider for the extended family, the obese woman going to the family dinner with the vomiting kid. Good women do not eat, they prepare food for others.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:she shuttles her worthless husband (who somehow lost his car) to the doctor and the police station, and fights his battles with gangsters and Las Vegas PD. She's presented as a tough woman who is fiercely protective of her family


That's a stretch - there's no real indication she's acting on behalf of anyone except herself. Janey-E certainly doesn't consider Dougie to be worthless, but rather as her meal-ticket. Controlling him by deciding where he goes, when he works, when he gets healthcare, even his relationship to the law, are purely an act of selfabsorbed interest, if he doesn't go to the job how is she going to get the car she believes she's entitled to? It's simple.

Janey-E with the gangsters is largely played for laughs, but she's just irritated, she shows no fear or apprehension which would be reasonable, instead it's just a huff and annoyance that she has to deal with these people, and hand over her money.

Mr. Reindeer wrote: I don't question the legitimacy of your reading, but it's far from the only interpretation.


Of course, but the 'tough cookie' interpretation ignores the text that has her sexually predate an obviously mentally incapable person, shows no feeling or emotion towards her child, obsessing over material status objects and being a control freak. She's not stressed out because she's trying to 'hold a family together' she's stressed out because she has to deal with people she does not care about, who are not providing for her needs. It's a classic portrayal of a narcissistic mother, completely controlling, unable to connect with others feelings, concerned with being outwardly 'perfect', constantly irritated by other people having needs. And like many narcissists, she is charming and comes across as self directed, but that's not really what is going on at all.
"Crack the code, solve the crime."
User avatar
Novalis
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:59 am

While I don't believe it is remotely possible to apply the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder to an onscreen representation of a fictional character (still less diagnose said character on the basis of the actress' weight or appearance), maybe it is worthwhile taking this claim seriously to see where it would lead us. (Let's not even go near trying to diagnose what is wrong with Dougie, with his use of prostitutes and gambling addictions).

I can't agree with the idea that Janey-E has a personality disorder. Her behaviour lacks one of the most distinctive features of clinical narcissism, which is the pomposity and grandeur, the over-inflated sense of prestige. On the contrary, she is fully aware of her status as a squeezed middle American living in what has been characterised as a pressure-cooker society, and at no point does she assume the position of the Lacanian Big Other that is typical of the perverse logic of a narcissist. On the contrary, Janey exhibits the form of subjectivity that has become the norm under neoliberalism.

Neoliberalism and liberal economic theory in general are grounded in the ideologies of philosophical preferentism, utilitarianism, public choice theory and the theory of rational self-interest (see various published materials on this by Loïc Wacquant, Maurizio Lazzarato, Michel Foucault, Philip Mirowski, David Harvey, Zygmunt Bauman). Janey-E is, to be sure, a caricature portrait of neoliberal subjectivity -- a representation that highlights the pressures it places upon a person to manage and present themself as if their life were a portfolio of assets, to relate to their self as if that self were a walking résumé or social media profile -- however this can only be considered individually pathological behaviour if it is not a widespread social phenomena. In short: everyone is doing it. The corresponding judgement one would have to make is that society itself under neoliberalism is pathological. I'm not a sociologist (unlike some I've referenced above) any more than I am a psychiatrist so I will stop short of making these claims about the world of Twin Peaks. What I do feel reasonably qualified enough to share my opinion about is that the 'people are under a lot of pressure' statement made by Rodney Mitchum, Janey's self-description as being among 'the 99%' echoing the political rhetoric of the Occupy Wall Street movement, coupled with the Rosa Rancho depiction of a squatter and prostitute riddled foreclosed estate, the obvious background theme of gambling and 'creative' insurance claims which permeate Dougie's story all enormously clarify the context for Janey-E's subjectivity: she's living under bioeconomic conditions brought about by the 2008 neoliberal economic crash. If she acts 'entitled' then it is probably due to the fact that her own parents had a better standard of life than her children will have; that the post-war consensus has collapsed; that the post-war settlement has been ripped to shreds by the marketisation of all walks of life to an unprecedented historical degree; that life under neoliberalism is defined not as a series of life choices but as a series of consumer choices and the conspicuous consumption of commodities. If the Vegas locale she lives in is considered a reflection of the real world, then these are not psychological but the very real social and economic conditions of her existence, and if her behaviour is adaptive, it is because subjectivity under neoliberalism largely consists in making oneself into a product and acting so as to sell oneself. In a deskilled postindustrial economy, this largely means selling one's personality, time, and affect to a labour market which is already so swamped with underemployed with unregulated contracts that individuals are pushed to compete not on the basis of what they can do so much as what they are: it has become normal under neoliberalism for employers to require 'the full package' -- a person who even at home in private is thinking about how to spend the next pay cheque, and thus how to improve their productivity and visibility in the workplace. Neoliberalism and its inherent (indeed, required) economic crises are an employer's dream world come true and an employee's nightmare. If you are the mother of a small child whose father is frequently absent due to a number of addictions or vices, then it is going to be very difficult to offer 'the full package' to the labour market, and so the pressure to comply intensifies, it becomes even more incumbent to realise the neoliberal ideal of a total, selfless flexibility. This pressure falls on Dougie too, but he is in no state to be aware of it: Janey-E is therefore doubly burdened, and if her lashing out at him are to be read as any kind of psychological acting-out of reaction-formations, then it would be because of a deep concern for his lack of subjectivity and its implications for the status of their relationship, not just because (as a neoliberal cod/folk psychology might put it) she isn't 'getting her needs met'.
Last edited by Novalis on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
Manwith
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:30 am

KnewItsPa wrote:Janey-E certainly doesn't consider Dougie to be worthless, but rather as her meal-ticket.


While I suppose an interpretation of a show can't be "objectively" right or wrong, your take on Jane-E is so removed from mine that we might as well have been watching different TV shows.

I'd say Jane-E is supposed to be a good person and the return of Dougie is supposed to be a happy, heartwarming ending for a likable family.
Last edited by Manwith on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1471
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:40 am

Manwith wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:Janey-E certainly doesn't consider Dougie to be worthless, but rather as her meal-ticket.


While I suppose an interpretation of a show can't be "objectively" right or wrong, your take on Jane-E is so removed from mine that we might as well have been watching different TV shows.

I'd say Jane-E is supposed to be a good person and the return of Dougie is supposed to be a happy, heartwarming ending for a likable family.


Just to clarify, you were quoting KnewItsPa, not me!! I have been absolutely disagreeing with KnewItsPa's opinion of Janey-E. While I think there is some small degree of support in the text for KIP's theory of the character, I think he/she is ignoring the vast majority of textual evidence, or distorting it to fit the interpretation.
Manwith
Posts: 151
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Manwith » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:18 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Manwith wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:Janey-E certainly doesn't consider Dougie to be worthless, but rather as her meal-ticket.


While I suppose an interpretation of a show can't be "objectively" right or wrong, your take on Jane-E is so removed from mine that we might as well have been watching different TV shows.

I'd say Jane-E is supposed to be a good person and the return of Dougie is supposed to be a happy, heartwarming ending for a likable family.


Just to clarify, you were quoting KnewItsPa, not me!! I have been absolutely disagreeing with KnewItsPa's opinion of Janey-E. While I think there is some small degree of support in the text for KIP's theory of the character, I think he/she is ignoring the vast majority of textual evidence, or distorting it to fit the interpretation.


Whoops. I corrected my post!
User avatar
Novalis
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Re: Gender in Twin Peaks: The Return (SPOILERS)

Postby Novalis » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:50 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote: While I think there is some small degree of support in the text for KIP's theory of the character, I think he/she is ignoring the vast majority of textual evidence, or distorting it to fit the interpretation.


The context for understanding the motivations of the character are all there. I'm not saying that your (and mine and Manwith's) interpretations are more 'objective', but that they are supported in many ways - almost overdetermined. The point I was making above was perhaps a long winded way of saying that Janey's 'materialism' (in the moralising, evangelist sense I would never normally use the term) has a social context, and doesn't play like it is some kind of deep character flaw. We're not watching this in a vacuum after all, and this arc is set against the backdrop of Vegas.

My preference for this reading might be more charitable towards Janey but it is based on a number of assumptions about the world which KIP might not share. I would be interested to know why it would be important, from the perspective of the narrative, that Janey-E is someone that an audience might find it hard to identify with? Could it perhaps make Cooper's detour through the life of Dougie seem more perilous or frustrating? I don't know.

Cooper seems to indicate when he returns to his former self in parts 16-17, that he really got lucky with the people he landed with: the Jones, Mullins, and even the Mitchums are all thanked profusely for their warm-heartedness and openness. Even the beat cop who is thoughtful enough to return him home when he's loitering by the statue is a touching scene in its own way. I find it difficult to be cynical about the humanism in those moments, but I suppose at a stretch it could be argued that landing in the care of a (alleged) gold-digger, an insurance boss who's blind to the fraud going on in his own office, and a dangerous and violent pair of mob brothers yet still finding them heart-warming could indicate Cooper was never more asleep than when he woke up. I mean, it's a real stretch, as I see it, but it's possible. It definitely adds a bleaker twist to the tale. I don't know that I need it to be this bleak though. I don't go for cynical 'gritty realism' at all, and to be honest I can't see why Lynch would rubbish his own tenderness.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return (Spoilers)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mr. Reindeer, ThumbsUp and 19 guests