Certainly there are indications that TP operates on dream logic, but I for one never liked that interpretation. It is lazy at its core because any logical inconsistency can be waved away by a magic wand. By analogy, any show that creates a super-powerful character tends to suffer from creative malaise down the line because there is no possible conflict that could threaten that character. I was always hoping that TP would not go down that rabbit hole. Neither dreams nor multiple timelines. It seems that at least the latter has now occurred in the TP canon.mtwentz wrote:Of course, 'we live inside a dream' could be just a general statement of Lynch's philosophy of life- it does not necessarily mean Twin Peaks is a dream (though it suggests that possibility).
The "We live inside a dream" theory
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
But that's the nature of surrealism "a 20th-century avant-garde movement in art and literature that sought to release the creative potential of the unconscious mind, for example by the irrational juxtaposition of images."Nighthawk wrote:Certainly there are indications that TP operates on dream logic, but I for one never liked that interpretation. It is lazy at its core because any logical inconsistency can be waved away by a magic wand. By analogy, any show that creates a super-powerful character tends to suffer from creative malaise down the line because there is no possible conflict that could threaten that character. I was always hoping that TP would not go down that rabbit hole. Neither dreams nor multiple timelines. It seems that at least the latter has now occurred in the TP canon.mtwentz wrote:Of course, 'we live inside a dream' could be just a general statement of Lynch's philosophy of life- it does not necessarily mean Twin Peaks is a dream (though it suggests that possibility).
You're making the assumption that a linear plot line is important in Twin Peaks, and it is to a certain extent. But to the surrealist, the imagery and sound and the feelings they create are more important. In other words, not everything has to 'make sense' in the conventional meaning.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
Dream is a handy word, but not a conceptually accurate one for what I am thinking of when I (and I assume many others here) write of "dreaming" in TP. There is an aspect of literal dreaming, yes, but in my mind it includes other psychological facets: desires, fears, wish fulfillment, fantasy, etc. Sometimes it is easy to imagine DL directing one of those Disney animated educational movies that those of us of a certain age saw in elementary school. Where the "brain" character sits in his giant control room sending "messages" to all the various body part characters to do their jobs. Except Lynch would stay within the brain entirely!mtwentz wrote:Of course, 'we live inside a dream' could be just a general statement of Lynch's philosophy of life- it does not necessarily mean Twin Peaks is a dream (though it suggests that possibility).
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
I don't mind a dose of surrealism. In fact, TP would not be what it is without it. It's important to keep it under control though. As with almost everything else in life, excessive indulgence becomes harmful.mtwentz wrote:But that's the nature of surrealism "a 20th-century avant-garde movement in art and literature that sought to release the creative potential of the unconscious mind, for example by the irrational juxtaposition of images."Nighthawk wrote:Certainly there are indications that TP operates on dream logic, but I for one never liked that interpretation. It is lazy at its core because any logical inconsistency can be waved away by a magic wand. By analogy, any show that creates a super-powerful character tends to suffer from creative malaise down the line because there is no possible conflict that could threaten that character. I was always hoping that TP would not go down that rabbit hole. Neither dreams nor multiple timelines. It seems that at least the latter has now occurred in the TP canon.mtwentz wrote:Of course, 'we live inside a dream' could be just a general statement of Lynch's philosophy of life- it does not necessarily mean Twin Peaks is a dream (though it suggests that possibility).
You're making the assumption that a linear plot line is important in Twin Peaks, and it is to a certain extent. But to the surrealist, the imagery and sound and the feelings they create are more important. In other words, not everything has to 'make sense' in the conventional meaning.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
I'm still endlessly mulling things over and uncertain about a lot of stuff. Conflicting ideas I've had about the end of season 2 as well as FWWM make a bit more sense, at least, if we go by the idea that most or all of it was a dream. The question becomes who is the dreamer, and initially I thought just Cooper and Laura, but feel it may be many of the characters all at once. It is just that Cooper is the main focus of the story.
One thing in particular is the scene wherein the arm makes a pact with Bob above the convenience store, if I'm recalling right the first time perhaps chronologically we would see the ring. It is the symbol of their deal.
It may be easy to think both spirits are simply evil, or malicious, because after all they both seek garmonbozia. However, I've seen a case made for Bob wanting to free himself from Mike in FWWM, and that is sort of made more apparent in TR.
Could just be that those who are out for self never get along, but going off my theory that Richard and Linda are the true nature of Cooper and Diane, I believe Mike represents a form of denial of a failed marriage, whereas Bob and by extension Mr. C are more representative of who he has been for the past 25 years.
Not exactly consistent, but the ring has seemed to always doom its wearers to the Black Lodge; a place that ultimately symbolizes the truth in sharing Linda's colors, and yet full of trickery and deception and secrets not ready to be heard. The arm, having taken the form of a tree, seems very much like nerve endings that, despite being cut off, still receives brain signals. It being the left arm, for the ring finger, ultimately makes it a symbol for a loss of love. Mike wants to hold on to that, while Bob wants to escape and go about his own destructive path.
I'll have to post more later. Nothing really complete so far, just ramblings.
One thing in particular is the scene wherein the arm makes a pact with Bob above the convenience store, if I'm recalling right the first time perhaps chronologically we would see the ring. It is the symbol of their deal.
It may be easy to think both spirits are simply evil, or malicious, because after all they both seek garmonbozia. However, I've seen a case made for Bob wanting to free himself from Mike in FWWM, and that is sort of made more apparent in TR.
Could just be that those who are out for self never get along, but going off my theory that Richard and Linda are the true nature of Cooper and Diane, I believe Mike represents a form of denial of a failed marriage, whereas Bob and by extension Mr. C are more representative of who he has been for the past 25 years.
Not exactly consistent, but the ring has seemed to always doom its wearers to the Black Lodge; a place that ultimately symbolizes the truth in sharing Linda's colors, and yet full of trickery and deception and secrets not ready to be heard. The arm, having taken the form of a tree, seems very much like nerve endings that, despite being cut off, still receives brain signals. It being the left arm, for the ring finger, ultimately makes it a symbol for a loss of love. Mike wants to hold on to that, while Bob wants to escape and go about his own destructive path.
I'll have to post more later. Nothing really complete so far, just ramblings.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
I don't believe this is THE explanation from a literal standpoint, but the same thing occurred to me. I do think it's a good way to approach the season -- some stuff is real, some is a shared dreamspace, and I don't think DKL particularly would care to parse out what's what. It's open to interpretation. I posted something similar in the thread for Mark's new book last night without having read this thread...it's intriguing that Mark referred to the many continuity errors in TSH as "unreliable memory." Whose memory was he talking about? His own? The shared memory of the Unified Field?
Also recall Jerry in the original show asking if this is real or some strange and twisted dream! Approriate that Jerry became so interested in "mind expansion" in TR.
Also recall Jerry in the original show asking if this is real or some strange and twisted dream! Approriate that Jerry became so interested in "mind expansion" in TR.
Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
My personal belief is that everyone should go with the interpretation that works for them. Has there ever been a DKL work since FWWM where there is only one valid interpretation?Mr. Reindeer wrote:I don't believe this is THE explanation from a literal standpoint, but the same thing occurred to me. I do think it's a good way to approach the season -- some stuff is real, some is a shared dreamspace, and I don't think DKL particularly would care to parse out what's what. It's open to interpretation. I posted something similar in the thread for Mark's new book last night without having read this thread...it's intriguing that Mark referred to the many continuity errors in TSH as "unreliable memory." Whose memory was he talking about? His own? The shared memory of the Unified Field?
Also recall Jerry in the original show asking if this is real or some strange and twisted dream! Approriate that Jerry became so interested in "mind expansion" in TR.
And sometimes I think it really doesn't matter how one interprets the 'events', as it is the 'feelings/emotions' that go along with them.
F*&^ you Gene Kelly
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
I think it is a happy ending for the following reason: Cooper becomes aware he is a dreamer, and takes complete control of his dream, even so far that he can save Laura in the chained dreamscape. In E18 he crosses over to another layer / quality of dreaming, and he is not the master of this dreamworld - but I'm sure he eventually will be.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
How's so? He is completely disoriented in the last seconds. He is lost.Low Entropy wrote:and takes complete control of his dream
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
That refered to Episode 17. In Episode 18 he is indeed not the master of his dream - yet.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
Could Episode 17 been about the awakening of Cooper from his dream, and Episode 18 about the awakening of Laura from her dream?
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
What if the "dreamers" are the supernatural entities exerting an influence on our world that they themselves don't fully perceive or understand either? Maybe, just as they seem oblique and confusing when characters like Cooper, the rest of the Blue Rose team, and Briggs encounter them, our world doesn't instinctively make sense to them and is more akin to what they would consider a dream state. They're more powerful than we are, which might explain why time-jumps, psychic messages, doppelgangers, tulpas, and other things that we'd otherwise consider impossible start to happen when they get involved, but who's to say that they necessarily have complete control over these things or are working according to any larger plan (or that we'd ever understand their plan if they were)?
In this reading, the Fireman is not a "chessmaster" who coldly sacrificed Cooper, Laura, and Diane as part of a larger plan to combat Judy. He might just be his dimension's version of Cooper - someone who perceived that Judy and BOB are likely to hurt a lot of people in our world and tried to do something to counteract it, but he can be wrong and miscalculate the outcomes of his actions just like humans could. Or, to take it a step further, maybe it's not even a conscious decision on his part if he only interacts with our world when dreaming. Heck, maybe he isn't even a single "individual" in the way we'd understand the term, and instead his appearances and words are just a representation of something human minds can't accurately perceive or describe.
This might actually make for a satisfying interpretation in my book. It doesn't negate any one timeline or another as "not real," it doesn't require us to view the series as partly or mostly taking place inside the mind of Cooper, Cole, Jeffries, Monica Bellucci, or anybody else, and it preserves what I find most compelling about the supernatural elements on Twin Peaks: their refusal to play by human rules. I've often thought that sci-fi ought to explore the idea of an alien species that is just so different from us, both physically and psychologically, that interacting with them just proves persistently bewildering. While the TP supernatural characters don't seem to be "aliens" in the sense of extraterrestrials, they do seem to originate from a realm of existence other than our own.
In this reading, the Fireman is not a "chessmaster" who coldly sacrificed Cooper, Laura, and Diane as part of a larger plan to combat Judy. He might just be his dimension's version of Cooper - someone who perceived that Judy and BOB are likely to hurt a lot of people in our world and tried to do something to counteract it, but he can be wrong and miscalculate the outcomes of his actions just like humans could. Or, to take it a step further, maybe it's not even a conscious decision on his part if he only interacts with our world when dreaming. Heck, maybe he isn't even a single "individual" in the way we'd understand the term, and instead his appearances and words are just a representation of something human minds can't accurately perceive or describe.
This might actually make for a satisfying interpretation in my book. It doesn't negate any one timeline or another as "not real," it doesn't require us to view the series as partly or mostly taking place inside the mind of Cooper, Cole, Jeffries, Monica Bellucci, or anybody else, and it preserves what I find most compelling about the supernatural elements on Twin Peaks: their refusal to play by human rules. I've often thought that sci-fi ought to explore the idea of an alien species that is just so different from us, both physically and psychologically, that interacting with them just proves persistently bewildering. While the TP supernatural characters don't seem to be "aliens" in the sense of extraterrestrials, they do seem to originate from a realm of existence other than our own.
Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
I'd say this is idea is highly suggested by TSHOTPFlyingSquirrel wrote: This might actually make for a satisfying interpretation in my book. It doesn't negate any one timeline or another as "not real," it doesn't require us to view the series as partly or mostly taking place inside the mind of Cooper, Cole, Jeffries, Monica Bellucci, or anybody else, and it preserves what I find most compelling about the supernatural elements on Twin Peaks: their refusal to play by human rules. I've often thought that sci-fi ought to explore the idea of an alien species that is just so different from us, both physically and psychologically, that interacting with them just proves persistently bewildering. While the TP supernatural characters don't seem to be "aliens" in the sense of extraterrestrials, they do seem to originate from a realm of existence other than our own.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
Bumping this thread just to say that, while my "primary" reading still allows for the full narrative reality of the Twin Peaks' story and all the supernatural mechanics that could put Cooper and Laura's ending into place -- I'm really coming around to the fact that Richard and Carrie as two flawed people who magically willed another world into being (as its transcendentally good-natured hero, as its totemic icon, respectively) is kind of beautiful as a secondary reading. That wouldn't diminish any of the ancillary arcs said world contains either.
I'm happy the finale prompts me to consider both.
I'm happy the finale prompts me to consider both.
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Re: The "We live inside a dream" theory
Yeah, and that's one reason I do like TSHOTP despite all its continuity errors and my initial reaction of "why is Frost bringing all this UFO stuff into Twin Peaks?" It does seem that humanity is interacting with something mind-bendingly bizarre that we don't and possibly can't fully understand.TheGum wrote:I'd say this is idea is highly suggested by TSHOTPFlyingSquirrel wrote: This might actually make for a satisfying interpretation in my book. It doesn't negate any one timeline or another as "not real," it doesn't require us to view the series as partly or mostly taking place inside the mind of Cooper, Cole, Jeffries, Monica Bellucci, or anybody else, and it preserves what I find most compelling about the supernatural elements on Twin Peaks: their refusal to play by human rules. I've often thought that sci-fi ought to explore the idea of an alien species that is just so different from us, both physically and psychologically, that interacting with them just proves persistently bewildering. While the TP supernatural characters don't seem to be "aliens" in the sense of extraterrestrials, they do seem to originate from a realm of existence other than our own.