POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

In your opinion, what is the nature of Audrey’s situation in Part 12?

Poll ended at Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:37 am

She is in the “real” world of Twin Peaks.
57
38%
She is in a coma, and the scene takes place in her head.
29
19%
She is not in a coma, but she is dreaming.
2
1%
She is not in a coma or dreaming, but experiencing a psychological delusion.
40
26%
She is trapped in the Black Lodge.
7
5%
Audrey and Charlie are acting in or rehearsing for a movie or play (not Twin Peaks)
5
3%
Other (please explain in thread)
12
8%
 
Total votes: 152
claaa7
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby claaa7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:22 pm

Ross wrote:Thinking about Audrey's situation, I'm a little surprised at how much importance it may actually have- even if Sherilyn's role itself isn't major. If Audrey is indeed still in a coma, it links her and Cooper is a really big way, as she and Cooper will have both spent the past 25 years in limbo. Its a situation I hadn't really considered prior to her scenes. Add in her possible/probable role as Richard's mom, and Audrey becomes a key figure in this, linked to Cooper in a way that surprises me.


wow that could be fantastic.. great train of thought
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BigEd
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby BigEd » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:21 pm

I just re-watched last night. The "should I stay or should I go" sure aligns with the coma theory. She is halfway between life and death, and on some level is contemplating a continued struggle to live versus just "moving on." If Coop does regain his right mind, and travels to Twin Peaks, a visit with the still comatose Audrey could be in order. Does she then finally come back to our world and have somebody ask her "what is your name?"
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby claaa7 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:51 pm

both of Audrey's scenes are haunting, but especially the first one.. the way we haven't seen her and it's now the 12th episode, then all of a sudden, in the middle of an agressive Jacoby rant suddenly she is just standing there and there's this complete stillness and silence as the camera pans across her and reveals the room she's in, and then Charlie.. that introduction with its transition from Dr. Amp to Audrey is one of my favorite moments of The Return so far and the increasingly bizarre dialouge in that scene keeps the momentum going for 10 minutes. there's definitely something at work here, and coupled with episode 13 my bet is on her being in some kind of dream or physcological state.

the coma theory is intriguing, especially when you consider that pretty much no character in the entire series has got any backstory revealed through exposition EXCEPT that we learn one thing about Audrey Horne - that she was in a coma after the bank explosion where we last saw her.

one more thing... much has been made of Audrey's line "is it Ghostwood out there?".. i just rewatched episode 13 with headphones on and rewinding that particular part several times. to me it sounds like she is saying "Charlie help me, it's like Ghostwood out there"?
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BigEd
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby BigEd » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:48 pm

Maybe Charlie is Audrey's guardian angel and he is here to guide her through her current state. That still wouldn't explain why a guardian angel has more paperwork to complete than a manager of five diners. :lol:
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Audrey Horne
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Audrey Horne » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:54 pm

It makes sense if he's her gaurdian Angel/brain... Going and processing lots and lots of information, papers and jumbled books, none of it organized since she is out of order.

Did you call the Gazette yet? Maybe you should call the sheriff too...ask for Agent Cooper!

I'm tired of waiting...for the phone to ring.

I intend to stay here until a town meeting is held about our environment and the effect of the Ghostwood development upon it.

Is it Ghostwood here?


And wow, also revisiting the bank scene, and maybe the spark for Lynch with a sly wink... The phone call does ring and is answered..."it's a boy?! ...it's a boy! It's a boy!" A nice baby announcement possibly in retrospect signally the birth of Richard.
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Jasper
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Jasper » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:10 pm

In line with what Ross and some others have been thinking about, I wonder if there's any kind of Jungian psychology at work. This is especially interesting in regards to the suggested link to Cooper. Cooper is up against his shadow self, which has essentially broken out of his unconscious been let loose on the world as an independent being. Lynch and Frost (probably mostly Frost) drew upon Jung with regards to Cooper, so could this have been extended to Audrey?

Carl Jung posits these personifications of the unconscious:

The shadow
The anima (in men) and animus (in women)
The Self

We already know all about the shadow in Twin Peaks, but could Audrey be somewhere within this scheme? I'll grab some interesting bits straight from Wikipedia (most of the article, actually, sorry :lol: ) and post them here for your consideration:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus

The anima and animus, in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology, are the two primary anthropomorphic archetypes of the unconscious mind, as opposed to both the theriomorphic and inferior function of the shadow archetypes, as well as the abstract symbol sets that formulate the archetype of the Self. The anima and animus are described by Jung as elements of his theory of the collective unconscious, a domain of the unconscious that transcends the personal psyche. In the unconscious of a man, this archetype finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of a woman it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.

The anima and animus can be identified as the totality of the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a man possesses or the masculine ones possessed by a woman, respectively.


(….)

Jung said that "the encounter with the shadow is the 'apprentice-piece' in the individual's development...that with the anima is the 'masterpiece'". Jung viewed the anima process as being one of the sources of creative ability.


Cooper is encountering the shadow. Is Audrey encountering the animus?

In the book The Invisible Partners it is said that the key to controlling one's anima/animus is to recognize it when it manifests and exercise our ability to discern the anima/animus from reality.


Hmmm…

Jung posits four stages of anima development for a man and four parallel stages for a woman, the latter being more complex. This is how he describes the stages of a woman’s animus development:

1. Man of mere physical power
(...)
2. Man of action or romance
(...)
3. Man as a professor, clergyman, orator
In the third phase "the animus becomes the word, often appearing as a professor or clergyman...the bearer of the word - Lloyd George, the great political orator".


This is interesting, because of all of these, Charlie most comes across as a professor. He's surrounded by papers with words, and he makes a comment about ending Audrey's story.

4. Man as a spiritual guide
"'Finally, in his fourth manifestation, the animus is the incarnation of meaning. On this highest level he becomes (like the anima) a mediator of...spiritual profundity' . Jung noted that 'in mythology, this aspect of the animus appears as Hermes, messenger of the gods; in dreams he is a helpful guide.' Like Sophia, this is the highest level of mediation between the unconscious and conscious mind."


(…)

The process of animus development deals with cultivating an independent and non-socially subjugated idea of self by embodying a deeper word (as per a specific existential outlook) and manifesting this word. To clarify, this does not mean that a female subject becomes more set in her ways (as this word is steeped in emotionality, subjectivity, and a dynamism just as a well-developed anima is) but that she is more internally aware of what she believes and feels, and is more capable of expressing these beliefs and feelings. Thus the "animus in his most developed form sometimes...make[s] her even more receptive than a man to new creative ideas".


The final stages of anima/animus development…
form bridges to the next archetypal figures to emerge, as "the unconscious again changes its dominant character and appears in a new symbolic form, representing the Self". - the archetypes of the Wise Old Woman/Man.


Jungian cautions
Jungians warned that "every personification of the unconscious - the shadow, the anima, the animus, and the Self - has both a light and a dark aspect....the anima and animus have dual aspects: They can bring life-giving development and creativeness to the personality, or they can cause petrification and physical death".

One danger was of what Jung termed "invasion" of the conscious by the unconscious archetype - "Possession caused by the anima...bad taste: the anima surrounds herself with inferior people". Jung insisted that "a state of anima possession...must be prevented. The anima is thereby forced into the inner world, where she functions as the medium between the ego and the unconscious, as does the persona between the ego and the environment".

Alternatively, over-awareness of the anima or animus could provide a premature conclusion to the individuation process - "a kind of psychological short-circuit, to identify the animus at least provisionally with wholeness". Instead of being "content with an intermediate position", the animus seeks to usurp "the self, with which the patient's animus identifies. This identification is a regular occurrence when the shadow, the dark side, has not been sufficiently realized".
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby sylvia_north » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:25 am

The old books, the old radio, the red velvet couch in 13 and the red coat in 12- Audrey and Charlie in another time as a theory interests me. Same place, different time bend and maybe Mr C have something to do with how she ended up there, she may have even worn the ring the nurse took from Annie. This contract giving Charlie marital rights/the right to end her story, and her spoken feelings of not being herself speaks to a change in identity, potentially similar to Cooper entering Dougie's timespace, or how Dougie came to be in 1997, or Fred Madison entering Pete Dayton. Is Audrey in 1956 Twin Peaks, or earlier? Having a marriage arrangement, one where an affair doesn't lead to divorce, is more appropriate to the past and mention of the old timey/flowery language Audrey uses has been made. Wanting to leave for the Roadhouse, not being able to leave- it's like Betty in MD's anxiety about the blue key, the parallel reality hearkening a truth, the hitman's key in another reality.

Dreams/madness/coma/fugue can stand in as metaphors, but I still think this isn't in her mind imo esp the deeper I go into David Lynch Swerves.
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alreadygoneplaces
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby alreadygoneplaces » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:44 am

I'm still really struggling with the Audrey scenes. Sure, it's looking increasingly likely what we're seeing isn't strictly taking place in reality, but whatever is happening, I just don't think it's working. Some of the reasons why I don't think it's working could be overturned by future plot developments, so I'm holding back on those reasons for now. But whatever happens, ultimately I'm finding them really unengaging. If it's a dream/coma, there are indeed many details that are consistent with dreaming. But I don't find it done anywhere as convincingly or effectively as say, MD did it. There's a lot about them to be unpacked cerebrally, but for me they're just not grabbing or captivating me enough to inspire the required level of interest in what's going on beneath the surface, which is a rare occurrence for me when watching Lynch. I see though I'm now in the minority, so I'll just put it down to experiments in the 'feel' of a scene not working for all people at all times.
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PeteMartell
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby PeteMartell » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:22 pm

Ok. This might be a long shot but what if audrey was in a coma but is not any longer and is experiencing a kind of identity crisis because while she was in her coma 25 years ago, somehow the spirit of LAURA managed to escape the black lodge and then enter and inhabit her body, in a kind of parallel to what has happened to BOB and Mr. C or with COOPER and dougie? Audrey does ask Charlie "do you ever feel like you're someone else?" This seems like an extremely important clue. I also noticed audrey's behavior to be much more Laura-like but with a level of confusion where it's as though this split identity leaves them both immobilized. What if this is a similar situation to dougie, but just much more functional in the speech department? It seems like the bob orb and the laura orb in episode 8 also implies that Laura has more work to do on earth...perhaps this is how she is able to manifest?
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby whoisalhedges » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:40 am

PeteMartell wrote:Ok. This might be a long shot but what if audrey was in a coma but is not any longer and is experiencing a kind of identity crisis because while she was in her coma 25 years ago, somehow the spirit of LAURA managed to escape the black lodge and then enter and inhabit her body, in a kind of parallel to what has happened to BOB and Mr. C or with COOPER and dougie? Audrey does ask Charlie "do you ever feel like you're someone else?" This seems like an extremely important clue. I also noticed audrey's behavior to be much more Laura-like but with a level of confusion where it's as though this split identity leaves them both immobilized. What if this is a similar situation to dougie, but just much more functional in the speech department? It seems like the bob orb and the laura orb in episode 8 also implies that Laura has more work to do on earth...perhaps this is how she is able to manifest?

I actually love this, but don't see how it's possible... Sherilyn Fenn signed on to the project so late (comparitively), everything had been written - I don't see how they'd be able to shoehorn in something that's SUCH A BIG DEAL with her coming on board at a later date.

But of course, I don't know actually HOW late Sherilyn signed on; or what if any difficulties Lynch/Frost had getting Audrey's story in.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:05 pm

From what I understand when an actor signed their contract had no affect on the story already written. Some things may have been tweaked here and there... But the spine was always there.

Actors were contacted by Fall 2014, and filming did not go into action until the following Fall. She was contacted in 2014 and the final story was completed knowing she was going to be in it.

Now some things MAY have been altered, like perhaps Ontkean dropping out and his part reimagined as Truman's brother, but pretty sure if anything like signing late had no bearing on the final story Lynch and Forst wanted to tell. They had faith everyone they wanted would eventually be available to film.
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby chromereflectsimage » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm

I remember reading in either the old spoiler thread or non-spoiler thread that Sherilyn not filming in Washington affected others being able to shoot scenes or some such. Does anyone else recall this??
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:38 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:From what I understand when an actor signed their contract had no affect on the story already written. Some things may have been tweaked here and there... But the spine was always there.

Actors were contacted by Fall 2014, and filming did not go into action until the following Fall. She was contacted in 2014 and the final story was completed knowing she was going to be in it.

Now some things MAY have been altered, like perhaps Ontkean dropping out and his part reimagined as Truman's brother, but pretty sure if anything like signing late had no bearing on the final story Lynch and Forst wanted to tell. They had faith everyone they wanted would eventually be available to film.


Maybe, but "nothing's a sure thing, Shelly" -- at least until the ink is dry on the line. At a certain point, it became clear that MJA would not be back and they had to come up with a contingency plan because certain scenes needed to be shot. I imagine that when Fenn was holding out, there was a backup plan in place and scenes might have even been shot without her then reshot later when they could return to the original plan.

chromereflectsimage wrote:I remember reading in either the old spoiler thread or non-spoiler thread that Sherilyn not filming in Washington affected others being able to shoot scenes or some such. Does anyone else recall this??


There was speculation based on two things: 1) Robert Bauer was spotted on location in WA by reliable sources but was not on the cast list (we now know Eric Rondell is playing Johnny in the new show, the only recast to date); and 2) Harry Goaz called Fenn a selfish woman in a tweet. The speculation was that scenes were shot in WA where Audrey was supposed to appear and had to be modified due to Fenn's refusal to sign; and that when she finally did sign on, those scenes were reshot, with Bauer either unable or unwilling to reshoot them, leading to the recast. I guess time will tell if we have any Audrey/Johnny scenes, which would give credence to this assumption.
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Audrey Horne
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:32 pm

Reindeer, I don't want to open a can of worms about the behind the scenes details... Which I'm sure in the upcoming years we'll hear a lot about from many involved... My point was only to reinforce that speculating on Audrey's arc shouldn't be clouded with behind the scenes actions. From what I understand everything worked out with the story Lynch and Forst wanted to tell. (Except of course Ontkean) So I think any posts like if X had been available, the story would have gone in Y direction isn't viable in this case. That was my only point.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby adl345 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:30 pm

Well, Part 14 certainly threw some interesting wrinkles into the Audrey theories. We've now seen new characters in a different location discuss the same people we previously saw Audrey and Charlie discussing. So either Audrey is in the real world, or most (if not all) of these Road House scenes have been taking place in some sort of metaphysical dream space. The main problem with that latter possibility is that while most of the characters we've seen there have been single-scene randos, we've also seen people like Shelly, Richard, and James there.
Last edited by adl345 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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