POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

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In your opinion, what is the nature of Audrey’s situation in Part 12?

Poll ended at Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:37 am

She is in the “real” world of Twin Peaks.
57
38%
She is in a coma, and the scene takes place in her head.
29
19%
She is not in a coma, but she is dreaming.
2
1%
She is not in a coma or dreaming, but experiencing a psychological delusion.
40
26%
She is trapped in the Black Lodge.
7
5%
Audrey and Charlie are acting in or rehearsing for a movie or play (not Twin Peaks)
5
3%
Other (please explain in thread)
12
8%
 
Total votes: 152
LateReg
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby LateReg » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:39 pm

Agent Earle wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:Thank you so much! I prefer the Audrey storyline we got too because it gave Audrey a special (yet appropriately tangential) role, which she should have because of how important she is to the first season and how popular she is with the fans. I think she was probably upset because her scenes involved being tortured and beat up by her son, who himself was a product of Audrey's rape. Does that sound like something fun for an actress who adores her character and wanted a good life for her to do after 25 years? I can't blame her for being upset. The Audrey we got, while heavily damaged, was fairly confident and strong.


In my view, what an actor or an actress thinks it's fun to do with a role or how he/she thinks a role should be treated is secondary to what the creator/writer/director feels it should be done with it. So I don't care for Fenn's histrionics and would certainly abstain from justifying it; moreover, I deem her stance as steadfastly supporting "all things DKL does" and at the same time throwing a fit whenever he does it in a way that doesn't suit her fancy to be more than a bit hypocritical. In addition, Fenn has been very vocal and critical of the selfish behavior and behind-the-camera meddling of LFB back in '90-'91, assessing it as damaging for the show. Well now, it absolutely doesn't seem Fenn herself is immune to such self-serving behavior. The difference is, LFB was barely on the brink of maturity when she meddled with things that weren't for her to meddle with 25+ years ago; Fenn today is (supposedly) a grown and mature woman with experience who really should know better. For all the things I feel are fundamentally wrong with The Return, literally facing Fenn with a mirror is a stroke of genius, a brilliant piece of meta-commentary if ever there was one.


Brilliantly put.

And I have always read meta-commentary into her scenes. Nearly all of her dialogue, full of complaints and demands, sounds like a reflection of what she was saying on Twitter. It's very hard not to notice this if you know any of the vague rumors swirling throughout production, though I was hoping it wasn't the case. But now, it seems more evident that it might truly be, and fits in with so many other meta-elements of the show.
Last edited by LateReg on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:12 pm

I think it’s a fine like between defying the writers/producers/directors for your own ego vs. wanting to protect your character. For instance, I’ve always respected Fenn for refusing to engage in the moronic Miss Twin Peaks shenanigans. In contrast, the totality of Fenn’s public comments over the past couple of years seems to indicate a brattier motivation this time around. Yet — admittedly having no clear idea what the original plan was — I can’t help but be thrilled with the outcome. Her arc ended up being a hilarious, poignant, creepy L/F tour de force. And I do truly believe that DKL intended “Audrey’s Dance” to be a beautiful, eerie tribute to the character...although it is seeming increasingly likely that some of Lynch & Fenn’s passive-aggressive love-hate dynamic may have seeped into the Audrey/Charlie dialogue!
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby BGate » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:17 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:So much I want to say, but will bite my tongue... or my typing fingers.


Please don't! Let it all out :)
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:29 pm

LateReg wrote: have her character literally trapped in limbo, broken and whining, away from all the other characters instead, does not in theory sound like any kind of improvement


I dunno, to me that's why it was confounding and fascinating and frustrating and great. Like, what the hell? Everyone was talking about it. If the original plan was to have her in Sylvia's place, I like plan B better.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby LateReg » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:12 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:
LateReg wrote: have her character literally trapped in limbo, broken and whining, away from all the other characters instead, does not in theory sound like any kind of improvement


I dunno, to me that's why it was confounding and fascinating and frustrating and great. Like, what the hell? Everyone was talking about it. If the original plan was to have her in Sylvia's place, I like plan B better.


Oh, I think it's great all right, and it may very well be better than what was initially conceived; it may have opened up Lynch's floodgates to reveal certain elements of the character in a more original way.

I'm only saying from the perspective of the actress, how much better can this be? She's still in no way shape or form the Audrey we once knew, or the Audrey her fans expected. Which leads me to wonder what she was so upset about. If she was in Sylvia's place, we don't know how many other great scenes she may have had; she could have been in a position of authority for all we know, which I would think would have pleased Fenn more than what she got. What did she dislike so much that she felt the need to walk away, only to be lured back into a "better" role that consisted of only 4 scenes totally alienated from the other characters, complete with dialogue that could be interpreted as a biting commentary as to why the role ended up that way? (While watching I actually thought that when Audrey looked in the mirror it was actually Sherilyn Fenn herself who woke up, a somewhat struggling actress waiting for the return of her claim to fame, which fits with her looking for Billy (Zane) and the name of the track she dances to referenced by its soundtrack name.) She said she cried when she first read the script; I would think she would have cried having read what she finally got to perform, since her character was so broken and estranged, so how much worse was the initial material? Was the rape discussed in more concrete detail? Was she actually still in a coma? Was it just a physical encounter with her son that left a bad taste? So many questions.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby BGate » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:24 am

Fenn gives a similar response in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IVPJPE ... e&t=18m51s

The only thing is, and I suspected this may have been lost in translation when I read the Italian interview, but here I think she's saying that she cried when she read the new story-line, the one Lynch wrote, because it was powerful and hit close to home.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Audrey Horne » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:53 am

here's the thing - some of the results may come off bleak and mean spirited or nihilistic, but I really think that is not the intention from Lynch. her scenes were not rewritten out of spite with codes references as a punishment. But again, to paraphrase him, that's the beauty -all of this is open to interpretation. if you the viewer want it to be a punishment, it is.

Interesting to me (well, as interested as i can be with this confounding season) is that most of what has been dissected about Audrey's scenes were a result of the rest of the season being shot and in place when her stuff was redrafted. Most likely we already had things like Billy (has anyone seen Billy) and "The little girl who lived down the lane" filmed. Carrie Paige getting her coat, "I'm not me" etc -that were then inspired for the new Audrey material.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby p-air » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:00 am

Sorry don't normally cross-post but I had some pertinent thoughts on a different thread a few weeks ago.

p-air wrote:My take: The Return - like Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire before it - is a reflection on filmmaking itself, aligned somewhat closer to reality than first appears. Audrey is "meta-Sherilyn" here.

(Purely per my own speculation) Beverly's discussion with her sick husband Tom was one of a handful of scenes originally scripted for Audrey. Charlie - scripted later - is a dramatization of the production's frustrated attempt to inflict this kind of material on Sherilyn.

Meta-Sherilyn - as we ourselves do at times - longs to relive the glory days of the past. But this is a delusion! The past has dictated the future and you can't go home again.

vicksvapor77 wrote:I think she was supposed to have Sylvia's part in the final product.

Surely! It's interesting to try and piece together whatever might have been originally scripted for Audrey. I'm convinced some of it remains in the finished product (in these other characters' scenes)!
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Ross » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 pm

LateReg wrote:
Audrey Horne wrote:So much I want to say, but will bite my tongue... or my typing fingers. In the end, from what I know everyone involved with the storyline was happy and thought it was improved. Ironically when I heard she was only filming for a brief period, I thought this was going to be Twin Peaks 90210 and was pleasantly surprised to find out, at least to me, she had one of the only successful arcs in the new series.


I just can't imagine how Fenn would have thought what she got was improved. I like it just fine; but for her to say what she originally got made her sad enough to walk away, and then to have her character literally trapped in limbo, broken and whining, away from all the other characters instead, does not in theory sound like any kind of improvement, especially when I attempt to think from the perspective of an actress who loves her character and knows what the character means to fans. I really want to know what the storyline was that this would be considered an improvement.

Well- the new material certainly had people talking, and created an importance and parallel to Cooper.

And if the theory that her original part included it being her in the Sylvia role, I can see her being very upset about that. Its certainly not hard to believe she was upset and refused to film a scene in which her own son physically and verbally abuses her.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:02 pm

I just rewatched part 12 for the first time since the finale and wanted to revisit Audrey's situation. Are most people in agreement that she's in some Lodge-created hell, not a coma or something else? In between the electricity sound in part 16, the backwards playing band, the parallels to Carrie Page, etc., it's pretty clear to me she's somewhere evil and supernatural, but I noticed some more cues in part 12.

I noticed the sound of fire crackling throughout her scene with Charlie, and we all know what fire means in TP. Then there's the doors behind Charlie - as others had pointed out on Reddit, they're the same doors from the Convenience Store that Mrs. Tremond beckons Laura through in Fire Walk With Me.

The many parallels to Diane are hinted at again here, as the immediate scene that follows Audrey and Charlie is Tulpa Diane at the hotel bar. And like Audrey, who's concerned with a phone, Diane is fiddling with her own phone checking the coordinates.

I don't think we're watching Tulpa Audrey, but I think she could be in a "pocket universe" or alternate dimension that she was forced into via the Convenience Store if Mr. C brought her there after assaulting her like he did Real Diane. All the random names Audrey and Charlie throw around (and the Roadhouse randos throughout the season that could possibly be in the same universe as Audrey) are reminiscent of the Richard/Linda/Carrie universe - familiar faces but unrecognised names. Perhaps it's even Carrie's scream in the finale that shatters Audrey's own pocket universe and takes her somewhere else looking into a mirror. Who knows.

What I'm getting at is - while yes, it's all up for interpretation, and everyone has their theories, I am finding it really hard to believe that there is anything other than something supernatural and possibly Judy-fueled when it comes to Audrey. (And if those possible connections were added late in the game in production, it'd make even more sense to me, as it's a really artful way of Lynch and Frost taking Fenn's separated presence in the piece and tying it big time to the greater themes at play and the universe/universes the other characters like Coop and Diane and Laura could possibly be associated with.)
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby LateReg » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:06 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:I just rewatched part 12 for the first time since the finale and wanted to revisit Audrey's situation. Are most people in agreement that she's in some Lodge-created hell, not a coma or something else? In between the electricity sound in part 16, the backwards playing band, the parallels to Carrie Page, etc., it's pretty clear to me she's somewhere evil and supernatural, but I noticed some more cues in part 12.

I noticed the sound of fire crackling throughout her scene with Charlie, and we all know what fire means in TP. Then there's the doors behind Charlie - as others had pointed out on Reddit, they're the same doors from the Convenience Store that Mrs. Tremond beckons Laura through in Fire Walk With Me.

The many parallels to Diane are hinted at again here, as the immediate scene that follows Audrey and Charlie is Tulpa Diane at the hotel bar. And like Audrey, who's concerned with a phone, Diane is fiddling with her own phone checking the coordinates.

I don't think we're watching Tulpa Audrey, but I think she could be in a "pocket universe" or alternate dimension that she was forced into via the Convenience Store if Mr. C brought her there after assaulting her like he did Real Diane. All the random names Audrey and Charlie throw around (and the Roadhouse randos throughout the season that could possibly be in the same universe as Audrey) are reminiscent of the Richard/Linda/Carrie universe - familiar faces but unrecognised names. Perhaps it's even Carrie's scream in the finale that shatters Audrey's own pocket universe and takes her somewhere else looking into a mirror. Who knows.

What I'm getting at is - while yes, it's all up for interpretation, and everyone has their theories, I am finding it really hard to believe that there is anything other than something supernatural and possibly Judy-fueled when it comes to Audrey. (And if those possible connections were added late in the game in production, it'd make even more sense to me, as it's a really artful way of Lynch and Frost taking Fenn's separated presence in the piece and tying it big time to the greater themes at play and the universe/universes the other characters like Coop and Diane and Laura could possibly be associated with.)


I agree with all that. The Roadhouse itself could be between two worlds, and the names that Audrey drops could be lodge spirits as they are pure all American names like Billy and Chuck, reminiscent of Bob and Mike.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Hester Prynne » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:20 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:Are most people in agreement that she's in some Lodge-created hell, not a coma or something else?


I rewatched the Audrey scenes in sequence this weekend. The end of 16 hints towards lodge/Judy influences, but there's part of me that feels like something bigger might be going on with her character and Charlie. There are parallels between her and Diane/Laura-Carrie, but she seems to be more aware of her existence/alternate realities and has some autonomy, but is terrified of excercising it and making the wrong choice displayed in her question "Which will it be, Charlie? Which one would you be?" Or she is simply scared of her curtain call - her story coming to an end.

I loved that her and Cooper's awakenings paralleled each other's in Pt 16. If there is a lodge influence, the awakening for Audrey may have been to help her, not keep her trapped. I think her awakening comes in the dance - not the final scene of her staring in the mirror. She went from being confused, terrified, and unsure of who she was, holding onto Charlie's arm as they walked into the Roadhouse as she anxiously looked around - to hearing her music, remembering instantly who she was, dancing without fear in a place she was terrified of going to by herself as though nothing had changed. Audrey had awakened. Her dance parallels Coop's "I am the FBI," both characters remembering exactly who they were, but Audrey's awakening was short lived.

Also, as someone who was hoping for at least one scene with Coop and Audrey, I thought it was haunting when the arm repeated her line, "Is it the story of the little girl who lived down the lane? Is it?" Since we never really found out what happened to Audrey - is she dead, in a mental institution, trapped in another reality - that echo of her question and it being directed at Cooper, for me, was touching and sad.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Audrey Horne » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:07 pm

Ugh, that’s why the finale was such a letdown to me on so many levels. 16 provided such a thrilling anticipation, and earned. But by the end, no ramifications are explored, no real human dynamic.

We have rape, molestation, suffering from so many characters. Purgatory in some way for most of them. But instead a green glove fight, and a gotcha Twilight Zone ending. What if instead we find out Cooper and Mr. C are the same person... two halves split. And Coooer has to actually deal with his darker side. Shades of Leland.

I love Audrey’s arc, except for it not ending as a cliffhanger. I don’t know... perhaps after The Arm says, “is it the story of the Little Girl Who lived down the lane” Cooper enters the White Room. Audrey sits in a chair like Cooper does in the Red Room, and Cooper enters like Laura did. Ambiguous patterns. Nothing concrete has to happen, but having women raped, molested, having a child and left in limbo seems kinda irresponsible not to explore. There’s something with Audrey, Laura and Diane that, to me, feels like should’ve been tied together to Cooper.

But to her actual situation, Charlie (whom I loved) is her brain, logical side. Her body is still in a coma. Mr. C locked her spirit away in a white room prison, but Good Lodge is trying to help her.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:43 am

Audrey Horne wrote:Ugh, that’s why the finale was such a letdown to me on so many levels. 16 provided such a thrilling anticipation, and earned. But by the end, no ramifications are explored, no real human dynamic.

We have rape, molestation, suffering from so many characters. Purgatory in some way for most of them. But instead a green glove fight, and a gotcha Twilight Zone ending. What if instead we find out Cooper and Mr. C are the same person... two halves split. And Coooer has to actually deal with his darker side. Shades of Leland.

I love Audrey’s arc, except for it not ending as a cliffhanger. I don’t know... perhaps after The Arm says, “is it the story of the Little Girl Who lived down the lane” Cooper enters the White Room. Audrey sits in a chair like Cooper does in the Red Room, and Cooper enters like Laura did. Ambiguous patterns. Nothing concrete has to happen, but having women raped, molested, having a child and left in limbo seems kinda irresponsible not to explore. There’s something with Audrey, Laura and Diane that, to me, feels like should’ve been tied together to Cooper.


Holy crap, the Audrey/Coop pattern thing is brilliant. That would have been awesome. I agree with Coop being forced to face his demons; I've said this in other threads, but I took Coop's hero complex/hubris as a downfall in the S3 finale. For me, up until halfway through S2, Coop was presented as this perfect, flawless character, but then you found out he cheated on his partner's wife, and his hero complex manifests in his Black Lodge trial when he's confronted with the various people he failed to protect (Caroline, Maddy, Leland, Laura, Annie...)

Some unifying thread or factor could have been implemented in a similar way to tie the Audrey, Laura and Diane threads and parallels that were hinted at in S3 but ultimately never fleshed out in an explicit way. There are just the hints of how the stories could be related that are ambiguous and open for interpretation (as we've all been doing on these boards!).

I guess the closest thing, from my POV, that we got to Coop/Mr. C "unifying" was the sequence at the diner in Odessa, as others on the internet have pointed out and theorised. We see flashes of Good Coop, Mr. C, even Dougie all in the same vignette.

Audrey Horne wrote:But to her actual situation, Charlie (whom I loved) is her brain, logical side. Her body is still in a coma. Mr. C locked her spirit away in a white room prison, but Good Lodge is trying to help her.


Do you think her physical body is still in Twin Peaks, at the hospital? I'm still mulling over what I think Charlie represents... my part 12 rewatch prompted more questions: What contract?
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby laughingpinecone » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:05 am

Richard tells us that she raised him up to a certain point, told him that the man in the picture was FBI. So whatever happened to her, I'd rule out the coma we left her in in ep29...
(I'm still praying for TFD to throw us a bone here. Not a whole univocal explanation, Hell would freeze over and Mark Frost would spontaneously combust before that, just one scrap of a clue)
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