POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

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In your opinion, what is the nature of Audrey’s situation in Part 12?

Poll ended at Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:37 am

She is in the “real” world of Twin Peaks.
57
38%
She is in a coma, and the scene takes place in her head.
29
19%
She is not in a coma, but she is dreaming.
2
1%
She is not in a coma or dreaming, but experiencing a psychological delusion.
40
26%
She is trapped in the Black Lodge.
7
5%
Audrey and Charlie are acting in or rehearsing for a movie or play (not Twin Peaks)
5
3%
Other (please explain in thread)
12
8%
 
Total votes: 152
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:58 pm

I just finished my part 13 rewatch, which obviously has an Audrey scene, so wanted to share my thoughts here.

Where does Dugpa land on the "Audrey is a tulpa" theory? I dismissed it pretty quickly when it made the rounds on Reddit and such initially, but damn, Audrey's behaviour, tone and language are all extremely similar to Tulpa Diane's in this episode. This was also when she said the "little girl who lived down the lane" thing. But when Charlie asked whether Audrey wanted to stay or go, she said she wanted to do both, and asked Charlie, "Which one would you be?" Which one would he be? I have no idea what she means.

She also mentions Ghostwood. That might support the coma theory, as Ghostwood was likely the most recent thing on Audrey's mind (as she was protesting the development project at the bank). Maybe?

I did think it was telling that the Audrey scene was immediately preceded by a Sarah scene, who looks as Judy-esque as ever watching a violent sport that's on loop with electricity sounds and chugging bloody marys.

I still don't think Audrey is a tulpa - if anything, I think we're seeing the real Audrey held captive in the Dutchman's or the Lodge potentially, as real Diane was. And I really can't shake the feeling that Charlie is an agent of evil from the Lodge. "I'll end your story" - sounds threatening and malevolent to me. And he seems hell bent on getting Audrey to stay where she is (the Black Lodge perhaps).
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:24 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:But when Charlie asked whether Audrey wanted to stay or go, she said she wanted to do both, and asked Charlie, "Which one would you be?" Which one would he be? I have no idea what she means.


I think it’s the idea of paths untaken in our lives, a theme of the season and particularly the “Out of Sand” song, which plays over Audrey’s final scene. “There’s another of us somewhere with much better lives.” “Now it’s gone gone / And I am who I am / Who I was I will never be again.” She doesn’t literally have to be a tulpa (or have a tulpa-self elsewhere) for this theme to resonate, but it’s a possibility. The tulpa theme is more interesting as a device to explore fractured identity than as a literal story mechanism anyway (like most of the TP mythology), so whether or not she is a tulpa isn’t as interesting as what the scenes say about Audrey’s character and the season’s broader themes of loss and identity.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:34 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:But when Charlie asked whether Audrey wanted to stay or go, she said she wanted to do both, and asked Charlie, "Which one would you be?" Which one would he be? I have no idea what she means.


I think it’s the idea of paths untaken in our lives, a theme of the season and particularly the “Out of Sand” song, which plays over Audrey’s final scene. “There’s another of us somewhere with much better lives.” “Now it’s gone gone / And I am who I am / Who I was I will never be again.” She doesn’t literally have to be a tulpa (or have a tulpa-self elsewhere) for this theme to resonate, but it’s a possibility. The tulpa theme is more interesting as a device to explore fractured identity than as a literal story mechanism anyway (like most of the TP mythology), so whether or not she is a tulpa isn’t as interesting as what the scenes say about Audrey’s character and the season’s broader themes of loss and identity.


For sure. I like how it fits into the additional theme of bittersweet nostalgia and how "Returning" to something isn't as rosy-eyed as you think it's going to be, how 25 years have elapsed, how people change, have regrets, see people in their lives come and go, end up in situations they don't want to be in. Audrey's vignettes definitely work along those lines even if she were in a completely realistic situation; alive, conscious and well in a house in Twin Peaks somewhere but with a husband she doesn't love. But since her final scene does reveal a supernatural or psychologically surreal force at play, combined with the rewatch of part 13, it made me revisit the tulpa question in a more superficial sense.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:03 pm

Audrey Horne wrote:As it stands now, it’s not cathartic because it comes out of the blue, and seems more like a shock gimmick than actual exploring human nature.


I think I understand. There are so many mysteries, that once you peel back one possibility, it seems like there are 100 more, and it's easy to go down the rabbit hole without really finding what you're looking for or experiencing a human connection with the characters. I'm not sure that the intent was to be shocking, but I feel like The Return was maybe DKL and Frost's way of rectifying and artistically avenging (not against fans) being forced to reveal Laura's killer so many years ago - filling The Return with so many mysteries, unanswered questions, and hanging storylines that they will be speculated about and analyzed for years to come - and never answered. Hell - they even yanked Laura's death out of the whole story - or not. It seemed like an attempt to pump Twin Peaks so full of mysteries that the circuits would become overloaded and the story would go black - forever a mystery, hauntingly beautiful, and yet frustrating and empty at times.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Hester Prynne » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:44 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:
If Coop and Audrey's awakenings in part 16 parallel each other (another bit I love), I wonder what other parallels exist?


Janey-E and Charlie are parallels. They both seem to be responsible for looking after Dougie-Coop and Audrey, and maybe knowingly or unknowingly keeping them in their current states? We had more time with Janey-E, and earlier in the season, people were speculating that maybe she was connected to the lodge or was in on Coop's switch with Dougie. It seemed unbelievable to me that she wouldn't recognize all the obvious changes in her husband, but in the end, she wasn't a malevolent force trying to keep Cooper trapped - she didn't even know who Cooper was. Who she is, if she's really Diane's half sister, if she's a tulpa, how she came to be married to Dougie - still a mystery.

So, with Charlie, it would seem like he's in on Audrey's situation, too, but maybe that's not the case with him, either. All the odd comments about ending Audrey's story may just be nothing more than his frustration with Audrey's inability to make up her mind. Dougie cheats on his wife, and Janey-E stays with him. Audrey brags about cheating on Charlie to his face, and he stays with her. Dougie gambles and gets blackmailed, and Janey-E finds a way to fix it and stays with him. Charlie gets strangled by his wife and then takes her to the Roadhouse to look for her lover and says, "Cheers to us, Audrey." No matter how horrible their spouses are, they seem committed to stay with them for some reason.

My inclination is that Audrey isn't a tulpa, and her struggle is more an internal one since the last scene of her is staring at herself bare faced in the mirror, but I sometimes wonder if American Girl could have been the real Audrey, as well.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:24 am

Hester Prynne wrote:
ThumbsUp wrote:
If Coop and Audrey's awakenings in part 16 parallel each other (another bit I love), I wonder what other parallels exist?


My inclination is that Audrey isn't a tulpa, and her struggle is more an internal one since the last scene of her is staring at herself bare faced in the mirror, but I sometimes wonder if American Girl could have been the real Audrey, as well.


Awesome analysis. For the last bit, do you think that American Girl could have been "housing" Audrey the way Naido did with Diane?
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby PsychoFox » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:26 am

ThumbsUp wrote:I still don't think Audrey is a tulpa - if anything, I think we're seeing the real Audrey held captive in the Dutchman's or the Lodge potentially, as real Diane was. And I really can't shake the feeling that Charlie is an agent of evil from the Lodge. "I'll end your story" - sounds threatening and malevolent to me. And he seems hell bent on getting Audrey to stay where she is (the Black Lodge perhaps).


In the following scene, it is Audrey that doesn't want to leave.

To my mind, Charlie is just the rational and adult part of Audrey's mind, and Audrey herself the immature and passionate part.
It reflects the two personnalities that we discovered in the previous Twin Peaks: the kinky, capricious but romantic Audrey in the first season, and the grown-up and wise Audrey of the second season, after her experience at the One Eyed Jack's.

To me, the old agreement that they were talking about in the first scene, is Audrey accepting to live her life with maturity. And now Audrey can't endure it anymore. She prefers "Billy" (as Billy Zane, her former love interest, or as Billie Frank, her wild character in "Rude Awakening" - which is a very appropriate title for her last scene in the season !).

The 4 Audrey's scenes in the new show are just the preparation for the come back of the Audrey that we discovered in the pilot episode.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Hester Prynne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:58 pm

ThumbsUp wrote:For the last bit, do you think that American Girl could have been "housing" Audrey the way Naido did with Diane?


I'm not really sure - Diane and Audrey are two women that we know Mr. C encountered after exiting the lodge, and we know that Diane was replaced with a tulpa. We know Mr. C visited Audrey in the hospital, so it's possible he replaced her while she was in a coma. Maybe Richard is actually the son of Audrey's tulpa and not the real Audrey. The only thing I don't like about it is it feels too literal and sort of detracts from Audrey's existential crisis of who she is and what story she's in - leading up to that final moment when she embraces her dance and wakes up staring at the mirror. Maybe there is a tulpa of Audrey that woke up from her coma, but the real Audrey never woke up - trapped in the lodge and still in a coma like a Sleeping Beauty living inside a dream until she forces herself to wake up. We don't really know if Naido was conscious of being Diane or not, and Dougie certainly wasn't aware that he was Cooper until he woke up. So, it's possible American Girl was housing her in some way or represented some form of the character.

Or maybe American Girl was what Audrey represented to Cooper - an all American Girl with the short haircut and red sweater - a "girl" and not a woman, someone who was off limits to him. "You'd better hurry, my mother's coming." Likewise, Naido was blind, unable to see him - only hear him - and unable to speak back similar to the tape recorder version of her character from the original series.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:53 pm

I’m not seeing the “Audrey as American Girl” theory. The choice of Ronette’s likeness is far too specific, and I can’t think of any compelling connection between Audrey and Ronette.

On the other hand, I could see Donna being the American Girl. Ronette was always sort of Donna’s shadow-self in Laura’s arc. With the deliberately-placed appearances of Pete, Catherine, Josie and Leo in archive footage, the only original-series regulars not to appear in any form are Donna, Harry, and late (largely non-DKL) addition Windom Earle. Harry is of course represented by his own sort-of-tulpa in Frank, appropriately played by the actor who was originally cast as Harry in the old show. Reasonably assuming that DKL had no interest in revisiting Earle (the only series regular who didn’t originate in the Pilot), Donna is particularly conspicuous by her absence. There is a theory that she died in James’s motorcycle crash, which would explain her presence in the Lodge realm, and she was certainly the quintissential “American girl” archetype on the original series. It would make twisted sense if her lifelong fixation with trying to understand Laura’s dark side led to her taking on Ronette’s likeness in the Beyond. But Audrey...I’m just not seeing it.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby powerleftist » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:52 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Donna is particularly conspicuous by her absence.


There is nothing conspicuous about it. Have you seen any pictures of her lately?

Perhaps they could have cast Moira Kelly to do her part again, though.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby PsychoFox » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:01 am

powerleftist wrote:There is nothing conspicuous about it. Have you seen any pictures of her lately?

And so...? Do you think that Lynch/frost, and the show itself, are the kind to exclude an actor because of a strange face ?
Hopefully, there are not so superficial.

Lynch proposed LFB to participate to the new show, and she declined.

Now, we just have to guess who was her substitute. Renee ? Gersten ?
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Xavi » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:21 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I’m not seeing the “Audrey as American Girl” theory. The choice of Ronette’s likeness is far too specific, and I can’t think of any compelling connection between Audrey and Ronette.

On the other hand, I could see Donna being the American Girl. Ronette was always sort of Donna’s shadow-self in Laura’s arc. With the deliberately-placed appearances of Pete, Catherine, Josie and Leo in archive footage, the only original-series regulars not to appear in any form are Donna, Harry, and late (largely non-DKL) addition Windom Earle. Harry is of course represented by his own sort-of-tulpa in Frank, appropriately played by the actor who was originally cast as Harry in the old show. Reasonably assuming that DKL had no interest in revisiting Earle (the only series regular who didn’t originate in the Pilot), Donna is particularly conspicuous by her absence. There is a theory that she died in James’s motorcycle crash, which would explain her presence in the Lodge realm, and she was certainly the quintissential “American girl” archetype on the original series. It would make twisted sense if her lifelong fixation with trying to understand Laura’s dark side led to her taking on Ronette’s likeness in the Beyond. But Audrey...I’m just not seeing it.


What could a man possibly do when floating in non-existence than thinking about the women he really loved? It is explicitly shown that one of these women was/is/and always will be/ Diane/Naido, who literally fell for him. Is it difficult to guess who the other "girl" might be? Just look at the facts. Cooper and this "girl" find themselves together in a confined room with a cosy fireplace/furnace (mind you, speaking of near death circumstances). The maturity of this "American girl" becomes questionable as soon as her mother came knocking on "the door." So Cooper had to exit her room unseen without ever being able to fully sharing his love with her. I dare say this otherworldly scene reflected the night that Audrey appeared almost (?) naked in the bedroom of Coopers 315 room.

The remembrance of these two extraordinary women remains in Cooper's heart for ever and ever more, and obviously there is "no room" for any Annie in annieways (thank God).
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:09 am

Xavi wrote:What could a man possibly do when floating in non-existence than thinking about the women he really loved? It is explicitly shown that one of these women was/is/and always will be/ Diane/Naido, who literally fell for him. Is it difficult to guess who the other "girl" might be? Just look at the facts. Cooper and this "girl" find themselves together in a confined room with a cosy fireplace/furnace (mind you, speaking of near death circumstances). The maturity of this "American girl" becomes questionable as soon as her mother came knocking on "the door." So Cooper had to exit her room unseen without ever being able to fully sharing his love with her. I dare say this otherworldly scene reflected the night that Audrey appeared almost (?) naked in the bedroom of Coopers 315 room.

The remembrance of these two extraordinary women remains in Cooper's heart for ever and ever more, and obviously there is "no room" for any Annie in annieways (thank God).


I get everything you’re saying, but am still not seeing any reason Audrey would bear Ronette’s likeness. What is the significance of the casting? It was obviously a very intentional choice.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby ThumbsUp » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:57 am

Maybe it's like when, in a dream, sometimes you mush images of people and things and places together as your subconscious associates things in weird ways and your brain tries to make sense of your desires and experiences and life. I agree the casting of Phoebe Augustine was deliberate, but Ronette and Audrey were two American girls the same age that entered Cooper's life at the same time in the same town.

I guess if we're asking why have Cooper's desires for Audrey represented as Ronette, we could be asking the same thing of Diane and Naido? I still have no idea why she was trapped in the body of an Asian woman. The eyeless and voiceless thing I get, because it's the tape recorder reference, but why cast Nae Yuuki? Just to have the reveal that it was Diane all along be even more shocking? (This is going down a rabbit hole of mine as to why more people of colour were not main characters in the show, but anyway...)

I know that the original plan was to have Coop fall for Josie, not Audrey, and Coop makes some un-Coop like comment about Josie being a real babe to Harry, so maybe in the dream-like realm of the Lodge, his desire for the two women (Diane and Josie) merged somehow? I'm really grasping for straws here, but Hester Prynne's theory is fun to think about.
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Re: POLL: The Nature of Audrey's Situation (Spoilers)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:18 am

I took Naido more as colorblind casting than DKL specifically wanting an Asian woman. DKL had a prior relationship with the actress and she pulled the role off beautifully...and you can’t even see her face! Who knows though, ha.

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