Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

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Nikki Grace
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Nikki Grace »

I'd say no. Both sides of Lynch are good for different reasons.

The only thing I'm not too keen on is when Lynch becomes overloaded with other musical talents, like in The Return with all the various bands, Johnny Jewel, Dean Hurley's music all on top of Badalamenti. Lost Highway is a great film but I find it infringes a little (I wish Manson could be cut from that film).
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Novalis »

I'd reply with a cautious 'no'. Cautious because obviously we are talking about financial constraints and the creative oversight of those for whom the product is ultimately a financial investment (and not a work as such); not for example the constraints of a medium or the constraints of a certain way of working, certain type of equipment, film, etc. These constraints are always present.

I feel like the long-in-the-making Eraserhead and Lynch's more recent films (in which I'd include TP:TR) like LH and IE are where we've really started to meet Lynch the film-maker.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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LostInTheMovies
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by LostInTheMovies »

It's interesting to what extent the "constrained" period of Lynch's work - forced to reveal Laura's killer, making a prequel that had to align with a pre-established scenario, shooting a script he had no input on (Straight Story), turning a pilot into a feature - coincides with his collaboration and relationship with Mary Sweeney.

I'd note there's a difference between constraint in terms of explicit oversight - like with Dune, or ABC forcing drastic cuts to the MD pilot - and barriers placed in one's path or an anchor placed on one's foot that one has the freedom to decide HOW to deal with. I think the latter type of constraint has worked quite well for Lynch, fueling his creativity while obviously the former doesn't suit him at all (except, arguably, in the case of runtimes that allow for at least 2 hours - perhaps not coincidentally, I think the 2-hour season 2 premiere is his weakest episode).

I'm less worried, to the extent I'm worried at all, that The Return is too long as that it didn't foster as much of a situation in which he had to think on his feet to overcome a major challenge. But that may not be right, and he may have also taken detours and risks within a system of constraints that he himself set (as he arguably did in Inland Empire, attempting to weave together two different projects in a meaningful way).
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Saturn's child »

LostInTheMovies wrote:(as he arguably did in Inland Empire, attempting to weave together two different projects in a meaningful way).
Good call on the Sweeney association. Can I ask you to expand on the above point, re: two different projects?
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by LostInTheMovies »

Saturn's child wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:(as he arguably did in Inland Empire, attempting to weave together two different projects in a meaningful way).
Good call on the Sweeney association. Can I ask you to expand on the above point, re: two different projects?
Hmm, it's in a John Neff comment left somewhere on dugpa, I'll see if I can find it (I know he deleted some). Apparently two different davidlynch.com digital projects, Axxon N & Laura's monologue (plus other stuff like Rabbits) got woven together as Lynch got "lost in the process of editing" (and presumably new shooting).
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Saturn's child »

LostInTheMovies wrote:
Saturn's child wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:(as he arguably did in Inland Empire, attempting to weave together two different projects in a meaningful way).
Good call on the Sweeney association. Can I ask you to expand on the above point, re: two different projects?
Hmm, it's in a John Neff comment left somewhere on dugpa, I'll see if I can find it (I know he deleted some). Apparently two different davidlynch.com digital projects, Axxon N & Laura's monologue (plus other stuff like Rabbits) got woven together as Lynch got "lost in the process of editing" (and presumably new shooting).
Ahh, OK, don't trouble yourself, I'm aware of the weaving attributes of IE, I thought you meant there were two distinct earlier projects (apart from Axxon N & the monologue) that were combined to form IE.
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Metamorphia »

LostInTheMovies wrote:
Saturn's child wrote:
LostInTheMovies wrote:(as he arguably did in Inland Empire, attempting to weave together two different projects in a meaningful way).
Good call on the Sweeney association. Can I ask you to expand on the above point, re: two different projects?
Hmm, it's in a John Neff comment left somewhere on dugpa, I'll see if I can find it (I know he deleted some). Apparently two different davidlynch.com digital projects, Axxon N & Laura's monologue (plus other stuff like Rabbits) got woven together as Lynch got "lost in the process of editing" (and presumably new shooting).
I'd kill to know what exactly Axxon-n was originally envisaged as.
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Novalis »

There are no doubt other members who can tell you more, but all I was able to find out* is that Axxon N was intended to be an episodic series (putatively 9 parts according to lynchnet) that was going to air on DavidLynch.com.
John Neff wrote:David wanted to do a thing about a girl in trouble in 'The Valley', but when we came down to shooting it, it was a thing with Laura Dern that is now becoming 'INLAND EMPIRE'.
(Monday, June 12, 2006 12:00 AM, https://twinpeaksgazette.com/community/ ... 3.cfm.html)

I get tired of people (including Lynch himself) citing 'a girl in trouble' as the subject matter of everything produced since LH. What does it even mean?


*Admittedly my google-fu was not strong on this one. I never went deep.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Metamorphia »

Novalis wrote:There are no doubt other members who can tell you more, but all I was able to find out* is that Axxon N was intended to be an episodic series (putatively 9 parts according to lynchnet) that was going to air on DavidLynch.com.
John Neff wrote:David wanted to do a thing about a girl in trouble in 'The Valley', but when we came down to shooting it, it was a thing with Laura Dern that is now becoming 'INLAND EMPIRE'.
(Monday, June 12, 2006 12:00 AM, https://twinpeaksgazette.com/community/ ... 3.cfm.html)

I get tired of people (including Lynch himself) citing 'a girl in trouble' as the subject matter of everything produced since LH. What does it even mean?


*Admittedly my google-fu was not strong on this one. I never went deep.
Yeah, that's all I know really. Had no idea John Neff used to post over on the gazette forum though, that's interesting. Can imagine the valley section of Inland Empire (everything with Nikki & Smithy) quite easily as a DL.com era web series.
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by AgentEcho »

LostInTheMovies wrote:
I'd note there's a difference between constraint in terms of explicit oversight - like with Dune, or ABC forcing drastic cuts to the MD pilot - and barriers placed in one's path or an anchor placed on one's foot that one has the freedom to decide HOW to deal with. I think the latter type of constraint has worked quite well for Lynch, fueling his creativity while obviously the former doesn't suit him at all (except, arguably, in the case of runtimes that allow for at least 2 hours - perhaps not coincidentally, I think the 2-hour season 2 premiere is his weakest episode).
Yes, that is a good distinction to make. BTW do you recall Lynch commenting on the murder scene in episode 14? I have some recollection of him saying he had to find different ways to make it unsettling within the network television standards. And it may be the most unsettling scene he's ever made. I think it's the most interesting case study for this discussion
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

In regards to runtimes again (it's my own personal major area of interest here because I think it pertains most to TP:TR)...DKL is known for massively overshooting. The deleted scenes for FWWM are longer than half-again the length of the finished film (granted, that includes some alternate/extended scenes). While the concept of a supercut with everything re-incorporated is fun, I much prefer FWWM as a tight, centered narrative, with TMP as a sidebar glimpse into the antics of the town in the week leading up to the start of the series proper. The Ed & Norma car scene is one of the most beautiful things DKL has ever shot, IMO, but it belongs where it is: as a deleted scene we can watch anytime we want.

I know some people have joked that the Blu Ray for TP:TR will similarly have 9 hours of deleted scenes, but the more realistic scenario is that DKL put more or less everything into the show proper. Realize that the cast list of 217 was released on 4/25/16, only 5 days after shooting ended. There's no way DKL had a clear idea of the edit at that point...the list is undoubtedly everyone who shot who had a speaking role (leaving out Ontkean and Bowie, of course :wink:).

Today, with five hours to go, there are only 26 of those cast members who have yet to appear. I'd bet dollars to donuts we will see every blessed one of them by the end, right down to the most minor one-scene spear carrier. I may be proven wrong, of course. But even as we stand now, I think the cast list proves it is inlikely that very much was cut from the show -- certainly not DKL's typical amount of judicious editing. And while I'm thrilled to have this thing be the utterly unique, arguably self-indulgent, shambling, personal and oddly perfect work that it has been so far, I'm also an unapologetic DKL fan, fascinated by even his flawed works. I do think there's a strong objective argument to be made that a chunk of this series should have been relegated to Twin Peaks: The Return: The Missing Pieces.
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by LostInTheMovies »

Mr. Reindeer wrote:In regards to runtimes again (it's my own personal major area of interest here because I think it pertains most to TP:TR)...DKL is known for massively overshooting. The deleted scenes for FWWM are longer than half-again the length of the finished film (granted, that includes some alternate/extended scenes). While the concept of a supercut with everything re-incorporated is fun, I much prefer FWWM as a tight, centered narrative, with TMP as a sidebar glimpse into the antics of the town in the week leading up to the start of the series proper. The Ed & Norma car scene is one of the most beautiful things DKL has ever shot, IMO, but it belongs where it is: as a deleted scene we can watch anytime we want.

I know some people have joked that the Blu Ray for TP:TR will similarly have 9 hours of deleted scenes, but the more realistic scenario is that DKL put more or less everything into the show proper. Realize that the cast list of 217 was released on 4/25/16, only 5 days after shooting ended. There's no way DKL had a clear idea of the edit at that point...the list is undoubtedly everyone who shot who had a speaking role (leaving out Ontkean and Bowie, of course :wink:).

Today, with five hours to go, there are only 26 of those cast members who have yet to appear. I'd bet dollars to donuts we will see every blessed one of them by the end, right down to the most minor one-scene spear carrier. I may be proven wrong, of course. But even as we stand now, I think the cast list proves it is inlikely that very much was cut from the show -- certainly not DKL's typical amount of judicious editing. And while I'm thrilled to have this thing be the utterly unique, arguably self-indulgent, shambling, personal and oddly perfect work that it has been so far, I'm also an unapologetic DKL fan, fascinated by even his flawed works. I do think there's a strong objective argument to be made that a chunk of this series should have been relegated to Twin Peaks: The Return: The Missing Pieces.
I think this is one area where the TV vs film distinction, which ironically Lynch hiimself has tried to obscure, comes in handy. Despite some of its cinematic qualities, one of the things that makes The Return much more like a TV show than Lynch's features is how much room he's given himself to wander and to take detours. The Missing Pieces is 100% the necessary approach for FWWM because anything else would really detract form the film's focused power. But even a pared-down 9-hour cut of The Return wouldn't lend itself to that kind of intense focus. While some scenes or storylines might be better than others, there's room for all of them within this kind of structure I think.
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

LostInTheMovies wrote:I think this is one area where the TV vs film distinction, which ironically Lynch hiimself has tried to obscure, comes in handy. Despite some of its cinematic qualities, one of the things that makes The Return much more like a TV show than Lynch's features is how much room he's given himself to wander and to take detours. The Missing Pieces is 100% the necessary approach for FWWM because anything else would really detract form the film's focused power. But even a pared-down 9-hour cut of The Return wouldn't lend itself to that kind of intense focus. While some scenes or storylines might be better than others, there's room for all of them within this kind of structure I think.
While I definitely agree, I have had the experience of watching the series with my girlfriend (who is generally a fan of subtle, slow-paced, esoteric entertainment), who finds the aggressively anti-episodic format exasperating. As you touched on in your most recent review, this series defies the narrative momentum that fuels even the most leisurely-paced TV series, such as Mad Men, where storylines would traditionally advance little by little each week. On this show, Jacoby rants repeat verbatim, scenes play out of order, and four weeks after Part 9, the (potentially minor) payoff of Jack Rabbit's Palace feels as far away as ever. DoppelCoop has done pretty much nothing in thirteen hours beyond vomiting garmonbozia, getting arrested and then breaking out, and getting shot and surviving. Outside of the Coop scenes and the investigatory stuff, most of the storylines feel as stagnant as swampwater, as if the scenes could be watched in any order (as DKL implied before the season started, with his allusion to film reels being mixed up). For instance, it's easy to imagine the Ben/Jerry scene from Part 1 being Jerry's return from the woods, taking place after all the other Jerry scenes we've viewed. It's one thing for Eraserhead (at 89 minutes) and INLAND EMPIRE (at three hours) to defy narrative convention and frustrate expectations. It's quite another for a TV show, week after week, to ask us to devote an hour of our lives to watching scenes like Sarah staring at a looped boxing match and emptying vodka bottles for minutes on end. This is indie cinema, on an epic scale and on a premium cable budget. It's about mood at the expense of plot. Personally, I couldn't be more excited about how incredible it is that this thing exists -- my only fear based on what we've seen is that things will get too expository/explanatory re: the mythology. But, objectively, taking my "Lynch obsessive" hat off, I think there's a good argument to be made that the show has broken too many storytelling rules at once. I definitely do think a shorter version of the season might have managed to have a tighter focus, albeit not nearly on the level of FWWM.

As an example: I think the arm wrestling sequence would have been an easy cut. The "guy who doesn't look muscular comes in and overpowers the tough guy" scene has been done to death, and while I'm amused by the concept of the "arm wrestling indentured slavery" gang (and particularly the accountant and his implied backstory), the scene didn't really contribute much in terms of mood or story IMO. (Richard slithering his way through the gangsters was a beautiful, skin-crawling moment, but I'm sure that reveal could have been accomplished elsewhere without the full Renzo sequence.)
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by referendum »

@Mr Reindeer.
this series defies the narrative momentum that fuels even the most leisurely-paced TV series, such as Mad Men, where storylines would traditionally advance little by little each week.
whilst i can see why some people get frustrated by the way this thing is put together, the lack of momentum is clearly deliberate, and as you say the actual plot moves at a snail's pace, and is very simple - more of a spine to hold the various scenes together than an actual plot. As you say, it hardly matters, most of the time, whether scene x in part 2 comes before or after scene y in part 10. I guess we will have a clearer idea when the thing is over, but at the moment it seems like this kind of structure has a precedent in the picaresque novel - a journey where each chapter is a different thing that happens along the way - that was traditionally published in separate episodes. Think of something like Don Quixote or Pilgrim's Progress or Tristram Shandy or 1001 nights. This way of structuring things as a linked series of episodes or connected vignettes that happen inside an overall fixed framework, and in which the order of the scenes is not particularly important, but each adds to the larger picture, is a very old model of story telling, although maybe since the development of the modern novel and the 2 1/2 movie it has gone out of fashion.

It seems to me that Lynch/ Frost are doing something like this here, the idea is that you enjoy each moment of the journey for what it is, and stop worrying what is going to happen next, because a) there is no way of knowing and b) that's not the point. The simple bookend structure is: we know where we started off ( good cooper in lodge/ bad cooper wreaking havoc) and we know where it will end ( return of good coop/ jack rabbit/ portals/ oct 2/ everyone returns to twin peak's ) and that it will get to that end in episodes 17/18. Those are the only real points where Lynch/ Frost have a plot obligation, as far as i can see. The rest is up for grabs, a journey from A to B where Lynch/ Frost can go wherever they want, and stop off on the way to spend time with whoever they want whenever they wish. I think this relaxed wandering episodic structure would not work if Lynch was operating under formal (network) constraints. Once you start asking yourself ' is that relevant', or seeing non-plot related material as an unnecessary digression, the whole thing falls apart.

Sure, I can imagine a ' condensed ' more streamlined plot-focused version where 33% or even 50% was cut also working,but that would be a different series and a different film-maker. The large canvas and the slow pace and the big cast of characters we meet along the way is part of the DNA of ' revisiting the world of Twin Peaks' , I think. Even if it does wind some people up who like their TV more plot driven. It took 25 years to get here. Hardly makes sense to rush the journey when we're being invited to enjoy the ride.
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Re: Is Lynch better with constraints? (Spoilers)

Post by Mr. Reindeer »

Hopefully not taking the thread too off-track, but there is a sense of reality about the way most of the returning TP-dwelling cast members are being treated: as slices of life rather than true "storylines." It's very much a check-in to see where they happen to be on these particular few days while significant stuff is happening elsewhere to Coop. Jerry is stoned and lost in the woods, Big Ed is pining and eating alone, Sarah is drunk, Norma is dealing with business concerns, &c. Realistically, this makes a lot more sense than a contrived attempt to give each character a meaningful ongoing "story," but I think such willful defiance of narrative convention is justifiably frustrating a lot of people (especially when they've waited 25+ years to see these characters again), and while I'm still loving the show overall, I don't have much in the way of impassioned defense the way I might of other series/films I love, beyond, "I'm loving the mood and I'm sorry you're not."
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