Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

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Who is Judy?

Naido
27
26%
Laura
13
13%
Garland Briggs
16
16%
Girl (1956)
7
7%
Annie
3
3%
Josie/Josie's sister
3
3%
Identical cousin of Laura
4
4%
Mrs. Chalfont
1
1%
Señorita Dido
0
No votes
Other
29
28%
 
Total votes: 103
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TheAlien
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby TheAlien » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:28 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Surprised Mother/Experiment isn't an option!



Right on point! :mrgreen:
For I am I: ergo, the truth of myself; my own sphinx, conflict, chaos, vortex—asymmetric to all rhythms, oblique to all paths. I am the prism between black and white: mine own unison in duality.
― Austin Osman Spare
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The Jumping Man
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby The Jumping Man » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:11 am

Inhabiting Sarah Palmer I think, at least part of the time. What was Evil Coop looking for? The symbol on the card, which represents an "extreme negative force" (Hawk said you don't ever want to know about it). Whether he wants to replace it or harness it or defeat it, I don't know. But when he gets to the coordinates and goes up to the Fireman's Movie Palace, we first see on the screen the place he just came from (near Jackrabbit's Palace). The next image is the Palmer house. This is where he wants to go, because this is where Judy is. Bu the Fireman waves his hand and switches it to the Sheriff's Station, sending him to his defeat instead.

So...I think the Mother, the Experiment and Judy are all the same thing, and when this force needs a human form, Sarah Palmer is available in the house it possesses. Someone Cooper has met before.

(No, this doesn't explain how Judy had a place in Seattle, but perhaps this entity has access to many human hosts.)
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powerleftist
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby powerleftist » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:34 am

In reality, there is really zero evidence that Mother, The Experiment, Experiment Model, Sarah Palmer and Judy are 'one and the same':

- Something is trying to enter the Purple Room, and Ronette calls her 'mother'. We assume that this is Experiment Model, and I agree, but truth is there is no direct evidence. Why would this horror thing be inside the White Lodge? (Apparently the Purple Room is part of the White Lodge... but of couse, who knows).

- The Experiment and Experiment Model are credited differently, and also look slightly different. I think they are the same thing, but again there is no direct evidence.

- Sarah Palmer is somehow fucked inside. But it could be anything. People are taking as gospel that she is Mother but there is no confirmation. She could be inhabited by The Jumping Man, for instance (in fact, this is strongly suggested).

- Judy is 'a extreme negative force'. Okay. Yes, it could be Experiment. Or not.
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Saturn's child
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby Saturn's child » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:07 am

powerleftist wrote:In reality, there is really zero evidence that Mother, The Experiment, Experiment Model, Sarah Palmer and Judy are 'one and the same'


I feel like I've responded to a couple of your posts recently (in other words, I'm not having a go at you!), but anyway: I think that this is what makes the concept(s) potent, that they are ill-defined & become larger than any designation they might be given. I love that we finished the season with this uncertainty, they just kind of linger overhead, waiting to drop down on us.
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The Jumping Man
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby The Jumping Man » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:10 am

Well, of course there's zero evidence. I'm not trying to prove it with a slide rule or something. It's just an interpretation of what I saw.
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ikerno
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby ikerno » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:30 am

Gordon said:

"For 25 years, I’ve kept something from you, Albert. Before he disappeared, Major Briggs shared with me and Cooper his discovery of an entity: an extreme negative force called in olden times “Jiao De [pronounced: jowday].” Over time, it’s become “Judy.” Major Briggs, Cooper, and I put together a plan that could lead us to Judy. And then something happened to Major Briggs. And something happened to Cooper. Phillip Jeffries, who doesn’t really exist anymore—at least not in a normal sense—told me a long time ago he was on to this entity. And he disappeared. Now the last thing Cooper told me was, ‘If I disappear like the others, do everything you can to find me. I’m trying to kill two birds with one stone.’ And now this thing of two Coopers. And recently, a paid informant named Ray Monroe sent a cryptic message indicating that the Cooper we met at prison is looking for coordinates—coordinates from a certain Major Briggs."

Since FWWM I think Judy is the Black Lodge boss. We see her incarnated in a monkey. But her true body is The Experiment/Mother. We have seen her symbol in Mr. C`s card and in Hawk`s old map. And we read about her in "The secret history of Twin Peaks". I think Judy is Babalon, The Mother of Abominations.
It Is Happening Again.
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powerleftist
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby powerleftist » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:38 am

The Jumping Man wrote:Well, of course there's zero evidence. I'm not trying to prove it with a slide rule or something. It's just an interpretation of what I saw.


My message wasn't addressed to you, but to all of the random internet theories I've been reading these days.
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby douglasb » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:43 am

So Cooper disappears and Cole doesn't mention an important piece of information to the only remaining member of Team Blue Rose? And what was the information Jeffries wanted from Albert that was mentioned in an earlier episode?

Was Gordon doing "everything (he could)" to find Coop? Doesn't really seem like it.
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powerleftist
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby powerleftist » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:48 am

"Jiao de" (Chinese) means something along the lines of "to explain", "to teach". So the 'extreme negative force' is trying to explain what's going on. It's a meta game. You've been tricked.
Last edited by powerleftist on Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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powerleftist
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby powerleftist » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:49 am

douglasb wrote:And what was the information Jeffries wanted from Albert that was mentioned in an earlier episode?

Oh!!!!! Well remembered. Do you need any money?
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Mystery Roach
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby Mystery Roach » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:03 pm

powerleftist wrote:Why would this horror thing be inside the White Lodge?


"It is in our house now."

I don't know why it's there but it seems to be. Actually I'm not convinced Cooper ever even left the Lodges. At the end at least I think he's in Judy's domain, which is where he's trying to bring Laura back from. Of course Judy may simply be something within himself that he has to confront as part of his soul's journey to perfection.

Ultimately I think the simplest answer is found in TSHOTP; Babylon, the Mother of Abominations. This was a Crowleyan concept based on the Whore of Babylon from the Book of Revelation, whose full title is Babylon, the Mother of Prostitutes and Abominations of the Earth. Quite a powerful concept to attach to Sarah Palmer, even if only on a symbolic level.
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Jacob
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby Jacob » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:10 pm

To me, Sarah Palmer is the Jumping Man. Not Judy. So I'm on board with the "Judy = The Experiment = Mother" thing, but not the rest. I got another idea !

Last night, I was thinking about the sex scene between Richard/Coop & Linda/Diane and I had goosebumps. Because I remembered what I had said on this forum about Dougie and Janey-E sex scene. I'm gonna quote myself, that's gonna be faster:
The shot on Watts feet to me is really meaningful : it's exactly like the one of Madeline Zima's in Part 1. And in this part, sex was what finally summoned Mother. So I was sad for DougieCoop. To me, he's losing himself and his purity for darker forces. He's drifting away of his liberation. But maybe that's the point.


The scene between Richard and Linda had a lot of similarities with the one between Dougie and Janey-E. Linda was on top, and Richard was as passive as Dougie. It looked like an extension of the scene, but deeper into evil.

So here's what I think. Mother aka Babalon -- as Mystery Roach is saying -- is also known as a "scarlet woman" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babalon
Like Diane's hair when she "comes out" of Naido. Like, also, the double of herself that she sees on the front of the motel.
Anyway, I think that if the sex scene between Richard and Linda is so fucking weird and scary, it's because it's between Dale and Judy :evil:

To me, it makes perfect sense on a narrative level. At the beginning of the season, Mother is summoned by sex and kills the lovers. At the middle of the season, Cooper awakes again to his sexuality. At the end of it, Mother fucks Cooper. Plus, I found it weird, since we're talking so much about Judy in Part 17 -- Cooper goes behind the 315 door to find her -- that we didn't "saw" her after that. But I think we did. And in having sex with her, Cooper definitely looses himself.
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Mystery Roach
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby Mystery Roach » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:53 pm

Wow I never thought about how that idea relates to Cooper's sexuality in this season. That's a very interesting line of thought, and if it were true that he was still in the Lodge, which I believe him to be in the final part if nothing else, then it could make sense if Judy was actually the woman he was sleeping with. Of course if that were the case then she could actually be a number of people all at once.
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p-air
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby p-air » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:36 am

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Isis Unveiled
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Re: Who is Judy? (Spoilers)

Postby Isis Unveiled » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:41 am

Jacob wrote:To me, it makes perfect sense on a narrative level. At the beginning of the season, Mother is summoned by sex and kills the lovers. At the middle of the season, Cooper awakes again to his sexuality. At the end of it, Mother fucks Cooper. Plus, I found it weird, since we're talking so much about Judy in Part 17 -- Cooper goes behind the 315 door to find her -- that we didn't "saw" her after that. But I think we did. And in having sex with her, Cooper definitely looses himself.


You know what else is interesting about that? When I went back and watched the first episode again after having watched the two part finale, my first reaction was that obviously the sexual encounter is what provoked the spirit (if the spirit is Judy) to appear in the box.

Remember when the male character that's being paid to watch the box meets his girlfriend downstairs a second time and the security guard is mysteriously gone?

Since we know Mr. C owns the box, could it be possible that the security guard (while not being aware of the existence of anything beyond his desk in the facility) was instructed by Mr. C (or someone under his employ) to leave his post when the watcher's lover arrives? As if to create the opportunity for them to fornicate (unbeknownst to the guard) in the presence of the box?

An interesting piece of dialogue that may or may not contradict the 'security guard in the know' scenario is when the male hired to observe the box says to his girlfriend: The last guy that worked here, he saw something appear. But he wouldn't, or couldn't, tell me what he saw.

This would imply that the last person to hired to be the watcher quit after he saw something. No mention of whether or not he had a lover present when 'something' appeared, but more interestingly he wasn't murdered by the apparition either.

So if what the previous watcher saw was the same thing that the watcher in the beginning of the season saw, then why was his life spared?

This begs the questions:

Was what he saw the same entity that murdered the lovers?
Or did he see actually see nothing and merely lie to the new watcher when he came in and took over?
If it was a different entity, then who was it?
If Mr. C set up this box to attract Judy then why does Mr. C ask Jeffreys to tell him who Judy is?
Perhaps Mr. C knows who Judy is, but was playing a trick on Jeffrey's in order to get coordinates?

Was Jeffreys aware that Mr. C was inhabited by BOB, and therefor gave him the incorrect coordinates that would instead lead him to the White Lodge?

If so, does this mean that Jeffreys is colluding with the inhabitants of the White Lodge?

So many questions.
"I have the fury of my own momentum." - BOB

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