Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

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Jacob
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Jacob » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:34 pm

Now that I think about it, I can see the Mitchum brothers doing a lot of good things to Twin Peaks. Maybe they're going to invest in the Double R and trust Norma ? Since we've basically say good by to all the Las Vegas storyline, I don't see why else those two, story-wise, would be coming with Coop.

Also, I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed with Bad Coop treatement. It's, in fact, something that I was thinking for a few weeks now, and that Part 16 really confirmed. He's just no that bad. Sure, people say to us he is (Diane for instance). But whereas I loved his scene in Part 2 where he killed Darya (it was CRUEL), now he's just a "cool" bad guy. He killed the mob guy, but we all, as as viewers, hated him. He killed Richard, but again, we all hated him. It's too easy. The character is not hurting us DIRECTLY. And it has weaken the character.

But it's something that Part 16 in itself is really guilty of, not onyl with Bad Coop. It's easy, to say the Mitchum brothers have "hearts of gold". It's easy, to say goodbye to Janey-E, like she was a perfect housewive. And it's fucking easy, that Coop may create another Dougie to please Janey-E and Sonny-Jim. I want payne. I want suffering. I want honesty. I want characters doing irreparable harm to one another.
Or else it feels like it's fake. Or for childrens. I mean, I love how Lynch can sometime be naive. Because it always feels at the same time real and tragic. In Part 16, well, not so much.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby ringbearer » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:36 pm

BigEd wrote:
ringbearer wrote:He forgot the ring under the pillow


I had the same concern initially, but then decided that he probably just grabbed it while he was getting dressed. My guess is that he's supposed to somehow get it onto Mr. C's finger before he is killed so that he'll be pulled into the lodge/waiting room like Ray was.


Yes, although I'm not sure as to why Diane didn't need to be wearing the ring.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:38 pm

I think Evil Cooper is going to kill a few people in Twin Peaks. Plus, he sent assassins to kill Dougie. Raping Diane and then making her a doppelganger is pretty fucking dark. Evil Cooper just being evil is enough for me, I don't need another Maddy or Laura Palmer from FWWM to have nightmares over.
oldforce
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby oldforce » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:39 pm

Jacob wrote: It's too easy. The character is not hurting us DIRECTLY. And it has weaken the character.


I disagree, what he did to Diane and Audrey hurts us directly.
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby garethw » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:43 pm

cgs027 wrote:Oh, and this also makes the whole Richard and Linda, two birds with one stone clue much more cryptic... If we just saw Richard get fried into oblivion (and still aren't sure about WHO Linda is), how does the ONE STONE come into play?

(Unless those same coordinates somehow come into play RE: Linda).


I'd decided early on that it referred to their creation - that Richard & Linda were fraternal twins.
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Jacob
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Jacob » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:44 pm

oldforce wrote:
Jacob wrote: It's too easy. The character is not hurting us DIRECTLY. And it has weaken the character.


I disagree, what he did to Diane and Audrey hurts us directly.

Cinema is showing. It's been too many parts that I haven't SEEN and experienced directly the evil that's inside Bad Coop. Of course, I know he's bad. But I want to feel it in the NOW, and on the screen. The first parts did it perfectly IMO.
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Framed_Angel
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:53 pm

Jacob wrote:
oldforce wrote:
Jacob wrote: It's too easy. The character is not hurting us DIRECTLY. And it has weaken the character.
I disagree, what he did to Diane and Audrey hurts us directly.

Cinema is showing. It's been too many parts that I haven't SEEN and experienced directly the evil that's inside Bad Coop. Of course, I know he's bad. But I want to feel it in the NOW, and on the screen. The first parts did it perfectly IMO.
I'm usually more about Show-ing than telling, and I've been baffled about how much has been presumed to happen or apparently happened off-screen. FWIW, as I watched/ listened to Diane tell her tale, the most powerful part for me was when she said "He smiled" at her reaction to / awareness of how something was different. The beginning of dread that preceded what would happen next. "He smiled" was loaded with the sense of EvilCoops' malevolence, and the next news of rape almost paled by comparison.

I like having some of the stories 'told', as it's efficient in an exercise like The Return with so many developments unfolding. And I also was reminded during her description of his smiling of how Bobby Briggs in S1 described to Dr. Jacoby how Laura "laughed" at him during sex, during a vulnerable moment. It drove the point home, for me.
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Ross
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ross » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:54 pm

Not really sure we can say the Mitchum Bros have "Hearts of Gold". Pretty sure they are still murderers, and were definitely planning to Kill Dougie...
"I can see half my life's history in your face... And I'm not sure that I want to."
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SnowqualmieJim
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby SnowqualmieJim » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:59 pm

Random observation on Mr. C's text message, ":) ALL", which many interpreted as "kill them all" (Cole, Albert, and Tammy)...

Recall Mike's poem about BOB: "He is BOB, eager for fun. He wears a smile, everybody run!"

When BOB is smiling, murder is imminent. I realize we're still not 100 percent sure that BOB is still with Mr. C. ...
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:02 pm

mtwentz wrote:
Great points. The only flaw in DoppelCoop creating Richard just for that purpose is that it would be a big coincidence that Richard just happens to stumble upon him right before he goes to the coordinates.

Then again, maybe if Richard had not shown up, DoppelCoop would have gone and found him in Twin Peaks, so it's still in the realm of possibility.


Or he'd have done something else altogether. My sense in watching him react to Richard was that he thought, "Okay, now that he's here, maybe he can be useful to me somehow." But I don't think he planned ahead of time to have Richard with him for the expedition to the rock.

I was a little surprised that Richard didn't protest at heading back in the direction of Twin Peaks since he was wanted there for killing that kid and on the run.
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Jacob
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Jacob » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:05 pm

Framed_Angel wrote:
Jacob wrote:
oldforce wrote:I disagree, what he did to Diane and Audrey hurts us directly.

Cinema is showing. It's been too many parts that I haven't SEEN and experienced directly the evil that's inside Bad Coop. Of course, I know he's bad. But I want to feel it in the NOW, and on the screen. The first parts did it perfectly IMO.
I'm usually more about Show-ing than telling, and I've been baffled about how much has been presumed to happen or apparently happened off-screen. FWIW, as I watched/ listened to Diane tell her tale, the most powerful part for me was when she said "He smiled" at her reaction to / awareness of how something was different. The beginning of dread that preceded what would happen next. "He smiled" was loaded with the sense of EvilCoops' malevolence, and the next news of rape almost paled by comparison.

I agree, but it was 25 years ago ! What about now ?! Bad Coop looks like a "bad-ass" in all his scenes right now, killing people and almost satisyfing the viewer while doing so. I'm sorry, but even If I had the same reaction at the "he smiled", when I see him, I'm just not that scared.

Ross wrote:Not really sure we can say the Mitchum Bros have "Hearts of Gold". Pretty sure they are still murderers, and were definitely planning to Kill Dougie...

That's not me, I'm just quoting Coop himself.
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The Marquis
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby The Marquis » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:12 pm

The only thing I can think to do besides re-watching part 16 is to sit back and mentally prepare myself for the death of some of my favorite characters over the remaining 2 hours. Evil Cooper is going to Twin Peaks
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Framed_Angel
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Framed_Angel » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:13 pm

Ross wrote:Not really sure we can say the Mitchum Bros have "Hearts of Gold". Pretty sure they are still murderers, and were definitely planning to Kill Dougie...
I have had more & more reservations about the hearts-of-gold madness the more I think about it, how it seems to have overlooked some glaring exceptions of the brothers' -- but I've hoped to wait til the end & see how it plays out before I decide for sure. Even from Cooper's own words, would it be so out of character for the Coop we once knew to utter one thing while having a reversal-plan of action in mind that contradicts what was said?

Meanwhile:
I'm not ready to be done with Richard Horne yet. If he's really Audrey's son then that's why part of me was hoping to see them together. Not knowing their circumstance but guessing it had been particularly difficult (when Ben mentions to Frank how "he never really had a father" but says nothing of not having a mother, didn't use the words "never had real parents," then it seems to me Audrey was part of Richard's life until, she wasn't anymore. But at some point was.) So if circumstance robbed him of his mother's involvement as a factor in his turning to wrongdoing -- then I felt I deserved seeing Audrey at some point with her own son! Maybe he's been needing to see her~
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mtwentz
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby mtwentz » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:27 pm

Jacob wrote:
Framed_Angel wrote:
Jacob wrote:Cinema is showing. It's been too many parts that I haven't SEEN and experienced directly the evil that's inside Bad Coop. Of course, I know he's bad. But I want to feel it in the NOW, and on the screen. The first parts did it perfectly IMO.
I'm usually more about Show-ing than telling, and I've been baffled about how much has been presumed to happen or apparently happened off-screen. FWIW, as I watched/ listened to Diane tell her tale, the most powerful part for me was when she said "He smiled" at her reaction to / awareness of how something was different. The beginning of dread that preceded what would happen next. "He smiled" was loaded with the sense of EvilCoops' malevolence, and the next news of rape almost paled by comparison.

I agree, but it was 25 years ago ! What about now ?! Bad Coop looks like a "bad-ass" in all his scenes right now, killing people and almost satisyfing the viewer while doing so. I'm sorry, but even If I had the same reaction at the "he smiled", when I see him, I'm just not that scared.

Ross wrote:Not really sure we can say the Mitchum Bros have "Hearts of Gold". Pretty sure they are still murderers, and were definitely planning to Kill Dougie...

That's not me, I'm just quoting Coop himself.


He works a helluva lot better than Windom Earle dancing around in his pajamas playing the flute :-)
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Ragnell
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Re: Part 16 - No knock, no doorbell (SPOILERS)

Postby Ragnell » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:28 pm

ringbearer wrote:
BigEd wrote:
ringbearer wrote:He forgot the ring under the pillow


I had the same concern initially, but then decided that he probably just grabbed it while he was getting dressed. My guess is that he's supposed to somehow get it onto Mr. C's finger before he is killed so that he'll be pulled into the lodge/waiting room like Ray was.


Yes, although I'm not sure as to why Diane didn't need to be wearing the ring.


As a tulpa, Diane comes from the lodge. The Other Lois disappeared as well. Dougie needed the ring to pull him in when the switch was happening, because nothing made him die. So Diane didn't need the ring, because she was from there. Ray and Laura did, they aren't tulpas or doppelgangers. Doppelcoop needed it, though, because he had BOB and the ring would be needed to overpower BOB and the Woodsman's attempts to save him. That's why he needed it put on him after his death, because it could be undone before he disappears.

mtwentz wrote:So assuming that's the last we've seen of Richard (not a safe assumption really, but definitely a possibility) how does everyone feel about that ending for his character arc? I was kind of expecting Richard trying to blame his lack of having good parents as the reason he turned out the way he did. But if that't the last we see of him, it is sure to be slightly controversial as some will say that we needed to at least hear the conversation between him and DoppelCoop on the way to the coordinates.


I don't think any conversation happened. I do hope it's the last we see of him, because it is one of the truly heartless things the Doppelganger has done.

TheGum wrote:
vicksvapor77 wrote:Has anyone brought up that it's weird that Cooper seems like Cooper pre-season 2 finale? I assumed the Black Lodge split his soul into two parts, good and evil? What are everyone else's thoughts on this?


I think you could actually argue that he was EXCESSIVELY good upon his return.


I don't think Cooper ever NEEDED the evil bits that made up the Doppelganger. What's the point of the test if you do? I read the Doppelganger as not a split, but a manifestation of the waste of the soul. It's a being of spiritual excrement, all of the stuff that drags Dale down and prevents him from ascending. Dale is complete without the doppelganger, he needs to defeat it not integrate it.

And maybe he was excessively good. But he spent 25 years away from Earth and humans, which is followed up by a rebirth into this community of people. He went back to infancy. He was in a state where he was unsure what to do or how to relate to anyone, where he desperately needed help and human contact and these people walked him through it patiently. He loves these people like he loves his parents, because he was born into this community and helped so much by them. So of course he's happy, comfortable, full of love and life and takes measures to take care of them and let them know how much he appreciates this.

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