Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

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chalfont
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby chalfont » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 am

Xavi wrote:TPS0301 [Giant] “Listen to the sounds.”

TPS03E17
"I am headed for Sheriff Truman's. It is 2:53 in Las Vegas, and that adds up to a ten, the number of completion."
Fact: In Cooper’s hospital room, Bushnell gets distracted and “guided away” by that same “hum” that filled the Great Northern Hotel.


TPS03E07
[Ben receives key from Beverly] "Room 315. Wait a minute. I think that was the room where Agent Cooper was shot."
Fact: As soon as Ben delivers key 315 to Frank Truman, the “hum” vanishes from the GNH.


TPS03E17
Fact: Key 315 unlocks the “boiler room,” which is a furnace. Mr C burns in the Waiting Room, at the same time MIKE proclaims his "Fire walk with me."
Fact: There is no way to explain how on earth Cooper could have possibly known that Sheriff Frank Truman got key 315 but to raise the possibility of Cooper’s omniscience.


Good work, Xavi. I like your ideas. At one point there, I thought you meant Cooper actually died when he was shot by Josie :-)
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Calderon » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:08 am

Panapaok wrote:Twin Peaks was named the 2nd best film (!) of the year on Sight & Sound’s list of best films of 2017.
http://www.bfi.org.uk/features/best-films-2017/


http://www.metacritic.com/feature/critics-pick-the-top-10-best-tv-shows-of-2017?ref=hp

And currently holds the number one spot with tv critics. Take that, haters.
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Xavi
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:20 am

Kilmoore wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote: what did we see on screen that supports this?


2. It is Cooper's number/time of completion - He run "Out of sand."
3. Death is "just a change."
6. If life is a dream then waking up equals being dead.
7. Key 315, that is connected to the "hum," is a death-key.
9. It explains why and when Cooper faced the Giant/Fireman/??????? - people are to "see" Him via a vortex (representation of a vision) or when dead (major Briggs).
10. Time-travelling requires the speed of light and beyond, no creature alive is able to.

Yeah, this is what I meant by "what did we see on screen". All this is just really far reaching speculation with nothing on screen backing it. You can do literally any theory - Cooper killed JFK - if you allow for leaps like these.

"our real life reality."


It's not our real life reality. The name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. This is something that we actually know because of what happens on screen.


Somehow this feels like you are trying to destroy a picture in a frame with an empty wodka bottle. Doesn't this sound familiar? Anyway, your quote does not present what I wrote. Therefore ...

1. Time stands still at 2:53
2. It is Cooper's number/time of completion - He run "Out of sand."
3. Death is "just a change."
4. This change is huge; the story changes from being fragmented to being converged
5. The multiplicity of characters are being eradicated
6. If life is a dream then waking up equals being dead.
7. Key 315, that is connected to the "hum," is a death-key.
8. Cooper/Dougie gets separated from "his family" while Badalamenti's theme "Farewell" fills the casino; a theme also heard when the hit-and-run boy died, and when the Log Lady died.
9. It explains why and when Cooper faced the Giant/Fireman/??????? - people are to "see" Him via a vortex (representation of a vision) or when dead (major Briggs).
10. Time-travelling requires the speed of light and beyond, no creature alive is able to. Cooper's after death-journey went into a wrong realm that was facilitated by Phillip Jeffries. Time-traveling disrupts the order of cause and effect; which results in chaos and madness. Exactly that is what Cooper and Carrie experience when entering "our real life reality." In a way this world of madness equals a world of uncertainty, a domain ruled by quantum mechanics where you can be Laura Palmer and Carrie Page, or Richard and Cooper, at the same time. "I am dead, yet I live." ~ forever and ever more.

YMMV


BTW Our real life reality pictures exactly these:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/a-kiss-before-dying/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJ_uzqaWAAAM6rM.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/01/deep-fried-gun-obdulio-gudiel-restaurant_n_2224040.html

https://i.imgur.com/SM0a70y.png
Kilmoore
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:14 am

Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:It's not our real life reality. The name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. This is something that we actually know because of what happens on screen.


Somehow this feels like you are trying to destroy a picture in a frame with an empty wodka bottle. Doesn't this sound familiar?

No, I pointed out that the name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. Which you failed to address.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:46 am

Kilmoore wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:It's not our real life reality. The name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. This is something that we actually know because of what happens on screen.


Somehow this feels like you are trying to destroy a picture in a frame with an empty wodka bottle. Doesn't this sound familiar?

No, I pointed out that the name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. Which you failed to address.


Not "failed to address" at all. We all know that she was acting, and that her true name is "Mary Reber." She was "requested" by Mr Lynch to use the name "Alice Tremond." In our real life reality people sometimes lie, sometimes play a role, and seldom tell the truth and rarely show their real self.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:27 pm

Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Somehow this feels like you are trying to destroy a picture in a frame with an empty wodka bottle. Doesn't this sound familiar?

No, I pointed out that the name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. Which you failed to address.


Not "failed to address" at all. We all know that she was acting, and that her true name is "Mary Reber." She was "requested" by Mr Lynch to use the name "Alice Tremond." In our real life reality people sometimes lie, sometimes play a role, and seldom tell the truth and rarely show their real self.

Wait, so Lynch was there, when Cooper and Carrie were? Why didn't they react to the massive setup of cameras, lights and filming crew?
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Xavi
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:56 am

Kilmoore wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:No, I pointed out that the name of the person living in the Palmer house isn't Alice Tremond. Which you failed to address.


Not "failed to address" at all. We all know that she was acting, and that her true name is "Mary Reber." She was "requested" by Mr Lynch to use the name "Alice Tremond." In our real life reality people sometimes lie, sometimes play a role, and seldom tell the truth and rarely show their real self.

Wait, so Lynch was there, when Cooper and Carrie were? Why didn't they react to the massive setup of cameras, lights and filming crew?


My log has a message for you. The red curtains are not what they seem. Not many have the ability to see red curtains in a forrest. The ones that do, can disappear mysteriously into a realm where the mind dissolves in midnight-oil. When Gordon Cole with his guys and doll enter the lobby of the morgue, he spoke the ancient phrase "The Waiting Room." Diane, herself not far from a lifeless creature, was not allowed to smoke, upon which she reacted with graceful elegance "It's a fucking morgue."
A morgue is a place, where the living visit the dead, where the dead are being stored temporarily before they embark for their final destiny.

It was a pleasure speaking to you.

PS. Just in case you did not notice. It is a small step to fictionalise reality, but it takes a giant leap to reverse that process.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:41 am

Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Not "failed to address" at all. We all know that she was acting, and that her true name is "Mary Reber." She was "requested" by Mr Lynch to use the name "Alice Tremond." In our real life reality people sometimes lie, sometimes play a role, and seldom tell the truth and rarely show their real self.

Wait, so Lynch was there, when Cooper and Carrie were? Why didn't they react to the massive setup of cameras, lights and filming crew?


My log has a message for you. The red curtains are not what they seem. Not many have the ability to see red curtains in a forrest. The ones that do, can disappear mysteriously into a realm where the mind dissolves in midnight-oil. When Gordon Cole with his guys and doll enter the lobby of the morgue, he spoke the ancient phrase "The Waiting Room." Diane, herself not far from a lifeless creature, was not allowed to smoke, upon which she reacted with graceful elegance "It's a fucking morgue."
A morgue is a place, where the living visit the dead, where the dead are being stored temporarily before they embark for their final destiny.

It was a pleasure speaking to you.

PS. Just in case you did not notice. It is a small step to fictionalise reality, but it takes a giant leap to reverse that process.


Xavi, your theory on this death scenario is excellent and fascinating. I have no idea why some are so against it when it actually makes sense. Sure, the show doesn't "tell" us these things, but you present evidence that is easily interpreted. Do you have more? I'd love to hear it. I'm curious if you have an idea, or if I missed it, as to where Cooper died? In the lodge? Or was it 2:53 when he was shot? Or...
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:56 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I agree with most of this: http://www.slashfilm.com/sight-and-sound-twin-peaks/


Hi, hi, hi. I have opposing thoughts, Reindeer. I think it is both a film and a series, and quite obviously both, as outlined in an article in filmmaker magazine. It was written like a film and then shot like one, and Lynch himself, a filmmaker, considers it a film, or at least doesn't see a need to make a distinction between film and TV. I do think, in contrast to your previous post, that this is more structurally filmlike than other shows, perhaps more filmlike than any show outside of Top of the Lake. It was written and shot like a film, only broken up later. Parts 1 and 2 function as a movie, parts 3 and 4 also do, and part 5 and 6 could/should have been edited the same way, as should have 7 and 8 in that the final scene of the earlier episode is also the opening scene of the next (7 ends with Cooper and Ray leaving prison and 8 starts with them in the car, moments later; 5 ends with Cooper looking at the statue with Johnny Jewel playing, 6 starts with the same scene and music). The inclusion of musical sequences in the middle of certain parts, such as in Part 5 and Part 8, proves that they're not only there just to bookend a chapter, but to add thematic and emotional resonance. When you watch them all together, the lines between Parts dissolve, and it all feels like one continuous movie that you can pause at any time, whether its at the end of an episode or the middle, and it doesn't matter. And if Berlin Alexanderplatz and the obviously episodic Dekalog are considered movies, then The Return is also a movie.

It's also a TV show, no doubt, since it is broken into chapters and aired on TV on a weekly basis. But it transcends either medium, in my opinion, and that statement doesn't only have to do with quality. I do agree that it opens a can of worms regarding what should be considered a film nowadays, but then again I think plenty of TV has been blurring that distinction, like you said.

Edit: I'd also add, in a controversially converse way, that the addition of musical scenes as punctuation both serves to make the thing a TV show, lending it an episodic element, but also at the same time makes it even more of a movie, in that you can argue that it needed the musical elements to differentiate one episode from the next since they otherwise are hard to tell apart since each opens and closes almost arbitrarily. There's also the pretty obvious element of the musical scenes simply being a more ambitious form of pop music playing over end credits a la Sopranos. As far as why it isn't edited differently for the Blu-ray, perhaps Lynch fell in love with the form that he arrived at and felt no need for further editing. But I'm a guy who's open to even considering the credits to be part of the film, rather than an element of episodic TV. An element similar to onscreen text in a Godard movie, or multiple or late credits sequences in an Apichatpong Weeresthekal film. In other words, I think the TV form has been blown wide open, with Peaks as the final ignition.
Last edited by LateReg on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Kilmoore
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:11 am

I think the fact that you can create such good matches by placing episode footage to run simultaneously proves that it's a regular TV-show, and nothing more. TV-episodes are done to certain structure to create the arch for the episode, and since so many coincide, they're TV-show episodes.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby LateReg » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:20 am

Kilmoore wrote:I think the fact that you can create such good matches by placing episode footage to run simultaneously proves that it's a regular TV-show, and nothing more. TV-episodes are done to certain structure to create the arch for the episode, and since so many coincide, they're TV-show episodes.


Maybe I missed what you're saying, and maybe you're not even responding to me, but wouldn't one episode bleeding directly into the next signify that was written like a movie, with no episode breaks? That's what makes it feel like a movie. And I also don't feel many arcs here, especially in the first half. If you're talking about literally placing one episode on top of the other and observing how they perform similarly, then that's interesting. I still don't notice that any of the episodes really build to anything, but I suppose that many of them do behave somewhat similarly in terms of rise and fall, but never in terms of plot resolutions or revelations, which gives the whole thing a "one long movie" feel. Then again, even if many of the episodes, varied as they may be, have a similar rise and fall, that's just editing to maintain an ebb and flow, which I believe any long movie must do (Satantango, for example).
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:09 pm

LateReg wrote:And I also don't feel many arcs here, especially in the first half. If you're talking about literally placing one episode on top of the other and observing how they perform similarly, then that's interesting. I still don't notice that any of the episodes really build to anything,

It was very poorly written, yes, but I didn't want to bring that up in this thread.
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Xavi » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:48 am

LateReg wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Kilmoore wrote:Wait, so Lynch was there, when Cooper and Carrie were? Why didn't they react to the massive setup of cameras, lights and filming crew?


My log has a message for you. The red curtains are not what they seem. Not many have the ability to see red curtains in a forrest. The ones that do, can disappear mysteriously into a realm where the mind dissolves in midnight-oil. When Gordon Cole with his guys and doll enter the lobby of the morgue, he spoke the ancient phrase "The Waiting Room." Diane, herself not far from a lifeless creature, was not allowed to smoke, upon which she reacted with graceful elegance "It's a fucking morgue."
A morgue is a place, where the living visit the dead, where the dead are being stored temporarily before they embark for their final destiny.

It was a pleasure speaking to you.

PS. Just in case you did not notice. It is a small step to fictionalise reality, but it takes a giant leap to reverse that process.


Xavi, your theory on this death scenario is excellent and fascinating. I have no idea why some are so against it when it actually makes sense. Sure, the show doesn't "tell" us these things, but you present evidence that is easily interpreted. Do you have more? I'd love to hear it. I'm curious if you have an idea, or if I missed it, as to where Cooper died? In the lodge? Or was it 2:53 when he was shot? Or...


Twin Peaks should have a disclaimer "For curious people only." Or to use a Mulholland Dr phrase "Have an open mind." Forget about the past, don't worry about the future. "It's always the present," Mark Frost said.

One of the marvellous themes in Season 3 is the exploration of the true nature of time; how it presents itself and how it is perceived. The very first scene of Cooper sitting opposite the Giant immediately evokes the question when did that happen. At this moment, as far as time let me, I am working on a detailed analysis to connect this with the Steven and Gersten scene, where Cyril (means "lord", btw) Pons comes along walking his black and white dog. And many many more ...

BTW, according to my view Cooper died when he woke up for 100%. Notice that he was suddenly able to pass objects (ring, hair) in and out the realm of the otherworldly, without crossing any barrier whatsoever. Hey, if anything Season 3 is not a fairytale named "Super Cooper", is it?
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Re: Twin Peaks Return: The Profoundly Satisfied Support Group (SPOILERS)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:14 am

I appreciate that the show was written and shot as one big production (although Mark has now admitted that the script was originally written with “chapter” breaks that they eventually deleted). But to me, the production background, while interesting, is not relevant to the equation. Most of MD was shot as a TV pilot, but the final product is undoubtedly a feature film. What matters is what’s onscreen. The fact that DKL edited TR into Parts (episodes), many of which do have their own independent internal logic, arcs and themes (Parts 8 and 18 being the obvious standouts, but there are many others) puts it firmly in the “TV show” category for me, albeit a highly serialized TV show that continues to blur the line/move toward the format of “extremely long features.” One wishing to argue that it is one long work could say that the format resembles the “acts” in a play; however, films typically do not have acts, and indeed, DKL himself for many years opposed the idea of chapter breaks on DVDs, saying that films should be watched straight through without even pausing (let alone having to load a new episode on a DVD, or wait a week). Also, while he has called this work a “film,” he has specified that it is NOT a “feature,” which is apparently what he calls more conventional-length theatrical movies — a pretty arbitrary semantic distinction IMO, but it is telling as to his mental state about where this work lies in the pantheon.

I’m very happy considering it a “film” within the TP fan community (despite the preferred label for it containing the word “series” :lol: ), but I do think more objective, respected critical sources should think twice before muddying the waters like this.

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