Annie and Dale

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LonelySoul
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Annie and Dale

Postby LonelySoul » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:07 am

While I did enjoy the ride of TPTR, there are a litany of things about it I find troubling, confusing, upsetting or downright silly. For the purposes of this thread, I'll stick with one issue, which is that of Annie.

At the very least, we hear her name mentioned once by Hawk. Cool. But then after that, she is never mentioned again. Between this glaring absence in the series as well as her absence in Mark's book, I am utterly baffled.

Back toward the end of season two, we see a Dale Cooper who is very much in love with Annie Blackburn, for better or for worse. Cooper risks his own life in the Black Lodge to save her. Then the series ends with the eerie "How's Annie?" line repeated by a doppelganger of Cooper. While we do see a little bit about her in TMP, it doesn't really tell us how she is. We just see that she has the ring and also that some nurse steals it.

Fast forward to the end of The Return, and Dale Cooper finally snaps out of his funk. After spending a quarter century trapped in the Black Lodge, in which he ventured specifically for Annie's benefit, and then a subsequent short period of time in a catatonic state in Dougie's life, when he "wakes up" he never seems the slightest bit concerned about Annie.

Instead of him showing any bit of concern about the woman he supposedly loved and nearly died for, he instead seems to be in love with Diane. This was never developed in any way in the early material. Sure, he talked all the time to her on his tapes and he complimented her in TMP, but that always seemed like a polite work relationship. He might have been crushing on her back then or whatever, but I don't buy this whole Diane and Dale love thing that happened. It makes no sense. It at least could have been with Audrey - at least there was some history there.

So we get left with an epic cliffhanger in 1991, causing people wonder How's Annie? for 26 years, only to have one person mention her - Hawk, of all people - in the new series. I feel bad for the Annie character, bad for Heather Graham for not being involved, bad for everyone hoping to get any sort of resolution on that, etc.

I should be clear and say that I don't believe that Mark of David owes any of us anything. This is the common go-to on Reddit when anyone complains about anything. "Why would they owe you x?" That's kind of a cop-out. I'm not claiming to be owed anything, I'm simply pointing out a glaring issue with where things left off back then and how the issue was never addressed, which is very confusing.
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claaa7
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby claaa7 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:28 am

it certainly is quite baffling... and what's even more, if it was a character that Lynch & Frost disliked so much that they wanted to retcon her entire existence i can't imagine Lynch would ever have included her in FWWM (including more scenes filmed than ended up in the movie). she filmed more for that movie than most of the original cast and that is a story that would have been easy to retcon her out of.
Agent Earle
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:28 am

Hey, that's David Lynch for ya (lest we forget: Season 2 sucked anyways, so you'll understand how he couldn't be bothered to deal with any of that old nonsense when crafting his sparkling new show/movie-in-18-parts). But there's still hope: Frost's next book (here's hoping he at the very least watched whatever came before (including S 3) before setting out to write it, in contrast to what happened upon his writing The Secret History)! I'm sure there's some master plan at work here (alternative timeline theory, anyone?), that'll finally be revealed/realized with the upcoming book, something that will put all the loose ends, continuity gaffes and what only on the surface seems as plain mistakes satisfyingly to rest. After all, the owls surely cannot be what they seem. Right. Right! Right? Right?! RIGHT?!?!?!....
dronerstone
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby dronerstone » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:31 am

Yup, I agree. No one owes anyone anything, but it's still quite the bummer that

(a) Frost acts like nothing happened despite a number of inconsistencies/retcons and mistakes in his book and

(b) Lynch seemingly neglects reading books that are Peaks canon due to "artistic reasons".


I know they both did A LOT for the new season and Lynch worked his ass off for a 70 year old, so that's really cool, on the other hand some of their behaviour I personally won't ever be able to fully understand.

If you approached them directly, you'd get an answer among the lines of "the inconsistencies even add to the mystery" or "in the end it's up to the viewer to decide" or "there are many different paths to get to the truth" but those only come across as either cheap excuses or just plain and simple laziness.

Dunno why, I gotta say every time there's something new on the horizon to do with Peaks (official) I like how it feels and tastes, until I swallow it and there's that bitter note in the after taste.
Agent Earle
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby Agent Earle » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:38 am

dronerstone wrote:
If you approached them directly, you'd get an answer among the lines of "the inconsistencies even add to the mystery" or "in the end it's up to the viewer to decide" or "there are many different paths to get to the truth" but those only come across as either cheap excuses or just plain and simple laziness.



Necessary corrections: ... "the inconsistencies even add to the mystery (or do they?)" or "in the end it's up to the viewer to decide (or si it?)" or "there are many different paths to get to the truth (or are there?)" ... Mind-bending!
dronerstone
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby dronerstone » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:40 am

Agent Earle wrote:
dronerstone wrote:
If you approached them directly, you'd get an answer among the lines of "the inconsistencies even add to the mystery" or "in the end it's up to the viewer to decide" or "there are many different paths to get to the truth" but those only come across as either cheap excuses or just plain and simple laziness.



Necessary corrections: ... among the lines of "the inconsistencies even add to the mystery (or do they?)" or "in the end it's up to the viewer to decide (or si it?)" or "there are many different paths to get to the truth (or are there?)" but those only come across as either cheap excuses or just plain and simple laziness. Mind-bending!


Hahaha!!!

You just made it even more mysterious.

Or did you? :)
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The Archivist
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby The Archivist » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:32 am

Lynch wanted Maclachlan and Dern to snog and have sex in the show.
So who cares about Annie and Audrey? He gave them a love story that never even existed.
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FlyingSquirrel
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby FlyingSquirrel » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:03 am

I actually think there may be a good reason why Cooper himself doesn't mention her, and that's that he most likely already knows her eventual fate and has had a long time in the Lodge to come to terms with it. I'd agree, however, that the lack of overall follow-up beyond the one mention from Hawk was disappointing.

It's possible that when she says in FWWM, "I've been with Dale and Laura," she just means that she was with both of them when Earle kidnapped her and saw DoppelCooper catch "the good Dale." Weighing against this is that she does seem to reappear in Glastonbury Grove at the same time as DoppelCooper (leaving her little time to play her role in Laura's dream), but of course time gets wonky in the Lodges.

However, given that time gets wonky in the Lodges, I've often thought there might be a second possibility: that she crosses into the Lodges again *after* the events of Episode 29 - either directly through Glastonbury Grove or some other portal, or she travels there in a dream-state or (in the worst-case scenario) because she's been killed by DoppelCooper. There she encounters Cooper, post-Episode 29, and Laura, post-death, and then comes up with the idea of trying to communicate the clue to Laura before her (Laura's) death.

If this is what happened, then it's entirely plausible that she and Cooper believe their relationship is doomed at that point even if she is still alive - I don't think he'd expect her to wait for an escape might never happen, he may think the entire idea was a mistake in the first place given the outcome, and she may be sufficiently traumatized that it would be too difficult for her anyway. And if he had succeeded in his plan to prevent Laura from ever being murdered, that probably would spare Annie from all the bad things that happened to her too. (If Laura is never murdered, then Cooper never comes to Twin Peaks and Earle never follows him there and would have no reason to target Annie.)
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Framed_Angel
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby Framed_Angel » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:59 am

I'd throw out there Annie could've been a tulpa all this time. Except unlike Janey-E meeting Dougie-The-Tulpa sometime after his creation, unawares -- Norma would've remembered her little sister's birth. Still, there was always a quality to Annie's existence in TPS2, which some have mentioned in relevant threads: how oddly unaffected Norma seemed by the events unfolding at the pageant where Nadine emerged bloody yet intact, but Norma's own sister couldn't be located and so what, who cares. As if Annie's existence no longer had any bearing except for Black Lodge access for Windom and later, Dale.

The idea of a 'manufactured' Annie appealed to me along those lines: created from beyond ("She's always seemed from another place in time" -- Norma) perhaps to trap Dale. She'd exhibit qualities that would appeal to him and even mirror his own ideals. It continues the whole reflection-mirrored motif. More than that, I was impressed how Dale reacted to those qualities with the same passion and childlike wonder he'd encountered other things new to him through S1: the Douglas fir trees, the hand-whittled train whistle; warm fuzzy encounters with pastries and hot coffee. Each new discovery he'd drop all pretensions or whatever occupied his mind to interrupt himself and savor this new item of pleasure. And Annie struck me as another iteration of these interruptions with the difference being she reflected so much of his own values rather than represent a new discovered 'item.'

So maybe DKL was dismissive of her as we've heard, plug back into shared production of TPS2's final episodes and didn't care for Annie; I don't like speculating on hearsay but hell, if the resulting storyline was to have her presented as bait for Dale's impulse to venerate a new love interest, followed in suit by a jury voting her Miss Twin Peaks (which ostentatiousness seemed really out-of-character for EITHER of them to participate in pursuing); then lead to her abduction despite warnings from the Giant to Cooper and trails-of-clues left by Windom Earle; finding her frightened and bloodied in various appartious manifestations within the Red Room; yeah that would be in keeping with some contempt I imagine DKL or his writing accompanists were ready to deliver her. Right down to the final phrase uttered in S2 finale.

Her name repeated over & again, but bereft of affection since the person uttering it was no longer Dale as we'd known him. Stating her name with biting irony. It's OK with me Dale never indicated in TP:TR any reference to Annie. He never mentioned Caroline either, season 1, even replied to Audrey "No [I don't have any secrets]," which was a lie. He'd admit to Harry later in S2 about Caroline but until then was easily enough preoccupied with matters at hand to keep her memory at bay.

And I think there's been plenty in S3 to keep his interest in Annie's fate at bay as well.
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N. Needleman
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:08 pm

I honestly think tulpa'ing Annie would be the best possible retcon, given everything we've now seen up to and including 18. I remember similar theories about her back in the day. I also think it'd add a bit of fascinating connective tissue from the end of S2 to The Return. And if Annie's tortured backstory did come from somewhere, where? Or perhaps it's engineered from Dale's own youthful traumas with women?
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TheAlien
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby TheAlien » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:50 pm

Cooper has obviously known Diane WAY longer than both Audrey and Annie 8) , plus 25 years in the black lodge may have given him time to think about things? :lol:
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mtwentz
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby mtwentz » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:51 pm

Thatfabulousalien wrote:Cooper has obviously known Diane WAY longer than both Audrey and Annie 8) , plus 25 years in the black lodge may have given him time to think about things? :lol:

Excellent points.
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metrojoe82
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby metrojoe82 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:54 pm

Was I the only one expecting the waitress at Judy's to be Annie? They obscured the actress for so long that I thought for SURE it was going to be Heather Graham.
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Ross
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby Ross » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:50 pm

N. Needleman wrote:I honestly think tulpa'ing Annie would be the best possible retcon, given everything we've now seen up to and including 18. I remember similar theories about her back in the day. I also think it'd add a bit of fascinating connective tissue from the end of S2 to The Return. And if Annie's tortured backstory did come from somewhere, where? Or perhaps it's engineered from Dale's own youthful traumas with women?

How does Norma then remember her life with Annie as her sister?
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N. Needleman
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Re: Annie and Dale

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:50 pm

Ross wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I honestly think tulpa'ing Annie would be the best possible retcon, given everything we've now seen up to and including 18. I remember similar theories about her back in the day. I also think it'd add a bit of fascinating connective tissue from the end of S2 to The Return. And if Annie's tortured backstory did come from somewhere, where? Or perhaps it's engineered from Dale's own youthful traumas with women?

How does Norma then remember her life with Annie as her sister?


(shrug) Lodge magic?
AnotherBlueRoseCase wrote:The Return is clearly guaranteed a future audience among stoners and other drug users.

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