David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

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RetconMetatron
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David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby RetconMetatron » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:14 am

I am pretty disappointed about the praise the S3 ending gets in the media, even if at least half of them are hipsters.

Lynch should be called out for including the damn "it was all a dream"-cliche as a possible ending for the whole of TP. That was just shoddy! (the other is timeline-altering, just as tired)

In all "fake-reality" stories (be the world a dream, computer-simulation, soundstage, doesn't matter) there are clues about the true reality of the world before the great reveal. You can see that in Dark City, Truman Show, Matrix, eXistenZ, The Thirteenth Floor and all the others. For example, the star falling from the sky in Truman Show: Why that happens makes perfect sense after the true nature of the world becomes clear.

Now in the case of Twin Peaks - nothing in S1 and S2 points to that "dream world/fake reality" possibility whatsoever (except for Bowie's throw-away line in FWWM). There's nothing in Twin Peaks in those seasons that's so out of this world that it just must be a dream. Sure, there are supernatural occurences, but that alone is not enough to declare TP as a dream. Macbeth also had supernatural elements, is that a dream too? Also, in our "real world", there are lots of upstanding individuals who claim to have experienced supernatural events - is our world a dream? (maybe it is, but that has nothing to do with TP...)

Also, from a storyline-line perspective, the reveal of the nature of the constructed world usually solves the puzzle. It's the intricate reason for the strange stuff happening to the protagonist. Truman was never able to leave the town because the constraints are an integral part of his world and thus shaped his personality, same with the protagonist of Dark City and his position and abilities in that world. The nature of these "false reality" worlds directly shaped and explained the choices, personalities and abilities of the protagonists. Yet in case of Cooper, the TP world being a dream/false reality explains absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing about the character, his motivation, personality, nothing about the internal logic of the mysteries, nada.

All that weird random stuff in Twin Peaks happened.. because it's a dream and random weird stuff happens in dreams. LAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZYYYYY. Cheapest cop-out ever.
Last edited by RetconMetatron on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Cipher » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:22 am

It's good that he didn't, then, since none of the interpretations allow for a wholly logical dream reading to lock into place.

But -- it's thematically interesting to consider: fiction as a shared dream (that's a little pat, maybe, though powerful in this context), but more than that life as a dream within some larger emotional context.

And then of course "Who is the (metaphorical) dreamer?" Whose emotions have we watched get projected onto this world? Laura, or Cooper, of Audrey, or the cosmic lodge entities, or none of them or some mix? Multiple dream worlds inventing each other with no one knowing who the dreamer is. It's a big mystery, and one surrounding emotion and connection.

But yeah, I don't think it's a literal dream, narratively. All of the weird stuff that happened, happened.
Last edited by Cipher on Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby SubV » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:24 am

Who's really cares anymore?

The TPTR was a disaster. Stick to the original seasons and FWWM.

Let's pretend the TPTR never happened.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Saturn's child » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:33 am

RetconMetatron wrote:Now in the case of Twin Peaks - nothing in S1 and S2 points to that "dream world/fake reality" possibility whatsoever...


Not that I want to to be THAT kind of replier, but
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Although
bit high.jpg
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby laughingpinecone » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:43 am

Cipher wrote:It's good that he didn't, then, since none of the interpretations allow for a wholly logical dream reading to lock into place.

Took the words right out of my keyboard :)

"Who is the dreamer" as a plot point would've been eeeeeh. Thankfully, as a wider question embracing its whole fictional universe, and the way we viewers engage with it, it's fascinating food for thought.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby mtwentz » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:50 am

RetconMetatron wrote:I am pretty disappointed about the praise the S3 ending gets in the media, even if at least half of them are hipsters.

Lynch should be called out for including the damn "it was all a dream"-cliche as a possible ending for the whole of TP. That was just shoddy! (the other is timeline-altering, just as tired)

In all "fake-reality" stories (be the world a dream, computer-simulation, soundstage, doesn't matter) there are clues about the true reality of the world before the great reveal. You can see that in Dark City, Truman Show, Matrix, eXistenZ, The Thirteenth Floor and all the others. For example, the star falling from the sky in Truman Show: Why that happens makes perfect sense after the true nature of the world becomes clear.

Now in the case of Twin Peaks - nothing in S1 and S2 points to that "dream world/fake reality" possibility whatsoever (except for Bowie's throw-away line in FWWM). There's nothing in Twin Peaks in those seasons that's so out of this world that it just must be a dream. Sure, there are supernatural occurences, but that alone is not enough to declare TP as a dream. Macbeth also had supernatural elements, is that a dream too? Also, in our "real world", there are lots of upstanding individuals who claim to have experienced supernatural events - is our world a dream? (maybe it is, but that has nothing to do with TP...)

Also, from a storyline-line perspective, the reveal of the nature of the constructed world usually solves the puzzle. It's the intricate reason for the strange stuff happening to the protagonist. Truman was never able to leave the town because the constraints are an integral part of his world and thus shaped his personality, same with the protagonist of Dark City and his position and abilities in that world. The nature of these "false reality" worlds directly shaped and explained the choices, personalities and abilities of the protagonists. Yet in case of Cooper, the TP world being a dream/false reality explains absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing about the character, his motivation, personality, nothing about the mysteries, nada.

All that weird random stuff in Twin Peaks happened.. because it's a dream and random weird stuff happens in dreams. LAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZYYYYY. Cheapest cop-out ever.


I missed the part where the whole thing was declared to be only a dream (although that is certainly one interpretation).
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Novalis » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:55 am

Cipher wrote:It's good that he didn't, then, since none of the interpretations allow for a wholly logical dream reading to lock into place.

But -- it's thematically interesting to consider: fiction as a shared dream (that's a little pat, maybe, though powerful in this context), but more than that life as a dream within some larger emotional context.

And then of course "Who is the (metaphorical) dreamer?" Whose emotions have we watched get projected onto this world? Laura, or Cooper, of Audrey, or the cosmic lodge entities, or none of them or some mix? Multiple dream worlds inventing each other with no one knowing who the dreamer is. It's a big mystery, and one surrounding emotion and connection.

But yeah, I don't think it's a literal dream, narratively. All of the weird stuff that happened, happened.


I don't usually do this but

THIS
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Thpthpthpthpthp » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:08 am

mtwentz wrote:I missed the part where the whole thing was declared to be only a dream (although that is certainly one interpretation).


It was in part 1:

At night I'm driving in your car
Pretending that we'll leave this town
We're watching all the street lights fade
And now you're just a stranger's dream
I took your picture from the frame
And now you're nothing like you seem
Your shadow fell like last night's rain


And part 9:

Tonight I sleep to dream
Of a place that's calling me
It is always just a dream
Still I cannot forget what I have seen


Assuming you consider the bands to be reliable sources of information, which they would be, in a dream. Bit of circular logic there, which you would also expect in a dream. It checks out.

Personally, I don't think there's any entirely coherent interpretation, and I think that's by design. It annoys me--I am one of those small hobgoblin minds who seek a foolish consistency--but I think that's been the Twin Peaks way since at least FWWM. Theorists have fun with it, though.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Spacevessel » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:20 am

Most famous David Lynch movies were shown as a dream sequence.
This way he could leave viewers confused, make them debate, and of course - praise him as a great artist, tricking them into thinking he made something deep. His films were stylish and effective, they didn't really need a real explanation. It worked.
He did his thing very well up until Inland Empire. And then, I guess, Age happened, and David kind of lost it.
You can't really blame him, just take it or leave it.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Saturn's child » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:28 am

Thpthpthpthpthp wrote:
mtwentz wrote:I missed the part where the whole thing was declared to be only a dream (although that is certainly one interpretation).


It was in part 1:

At night I'm driving in your car
Pretending that we'll leave this town
We're watching all the street lights fade
And now you're just a stranger's dream
I took your picture from the frame
And now you're nothing like you seem
Your shadow fell like last night's rain


And part 9:

Tonight I sleep to dream
Of a place that's calling me
It is always just a dream
Still I cannot forget what I have seen


Assuming you consider the bands to be reliable sources of information, which they would be, in a dream. Bit of circular logic there, which you would also expect in a dream. It checks out.

Personally, I don't think there's any entirely coherent interpretation, and I think that's by design. It annoys me--I am one of those small hobgoblin minds who seek a foolish consistency--but I think that's been the Twin Peaks way since at least FWWM. Theorists have fun with it, though.


Nice first post Thpthpthpthpthp! I agree with your "there's no entirely coherent interpretation", too, while also loosely subscribing to the the 'joint dream' interpretation. Hobgoblin minds often have something to impart. While we're here, intriguing username. :)
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Saturn's child » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:34 am

Spacevessel wrote:He did his thing very well up until Inland Empire. And then, I guess, Age happened, and David kind of lost it.


As per one of the acronyms I learnt on this board, YMMV! IE is my favourite Lynch film, & the Return sat very (uncomfortably) cosy in my head. In saying that, could there be something important to learn from someone who's 'lost it'? I'm thinking Outsider Art here, which Lynch dallies -- or at least flirts -- with.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Spacevessel » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:10 am

Saturn's child wrote:Outsider Art


Sounds too much like an excuse for sloppy art, which IE definitely was.
And I'm not trying to start a debate here, but it's seems strange to me how someone with a good pair of eyes could not see the cinematic inferiority of both IE and TPS3 in comparison to Lynch's previous works. And as TPS3 shows, the issue is not the project's budget.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby mtwentz » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:18 am

Spacevessel wrote:
Saturn's child wrote:Outsider Art


Sounds too much like an excuse for sloppy art, which IE definitely was.
And I'm not trying to start a debate here, but it's seems strange to me how someone with a good pair of eyes could not see the cinematic inferiority of both IE and TPS3 in comparison to Lynch's previous works. And as TPS3 shows, the issue is not the project's budget.


It's really very difficult to compare TP:TR to anything else Lynch has done. It's an 18 hour movie that was shot in about 6-7 months. We can debate how we think it holds up as a whole (I think it's terrific but I understand why others disagreee) but even if we don't agree on that, some of the best material Lynch has ever created is still contained within that 18 hours, in my opinion.
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Saturn's child » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:23 am

Spacevessel wrote:
Saturn's child wrote:Outsider Art


Sounds too much like an excuse for sloppy art, which IE definitely was.
And I'm not trying to start a debate here, but it's seems strange to me how someone with a good pair of eyes could not see the cinematic inferiority of both IE and TPS3 in comparison to Lynch's previous works. And as TPS3 shows, the issue is not the project's budget.


Cinematically inferior or no, I tend to just go for the stuff that hits me in the deep spot. The Return did that for me, & upon the long reflection I've had upon IE, it's also done that for me in spades. Sure it might be sloppy, but I kind of like something raw that's been slurped up from the unconscious without much regard for conscious form (ETA: I'm also a fan of B movies when they hit me right, so maybe I'm not the best person to talk to on such matters!)
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Re: David Lynch should not get away by declaring TP as a "dream"

Postby Ashok » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:29 am

RetconMetatron wrote:Lynch should be called out for including the damn "it was all a dream"-cliche as a possible ending for the whole of TP. That was just shoddy! (the other is timeline-altering, just as tired)


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