Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

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Framed_Angel
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Framed_Angel » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:59 am

Novalis wrote:
Michael Philip wrote:...Jeffries switching the owl symbol to infinity....
I keep reading this, but as far as I can remember Jeffries made it into a figure 8, not a lemniscate ( sideways 8 ).
Whether or not it can represent "looping" in either sideways or upright: but much chatter has been given to its representing infinity or aspects of it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... pace_time/

The numbers-geek in me is going to have fun sorting out the various numerological significances of things such as "8," "10" (the number of completion), and 6, and 430... Furthermore, I don't recall Cooper's detective-work or such as Hawk's mystical ruminations touching upon much numerology. There's that one time when Gordon on the airplane gives the rundown about "spirit mound" by counting on Tammy's fingers.. But viewers of TP, FWWM and tP:TR are invited on plenty of occasions to consider the numbers as they appear on the screen in suggestive ways.

Trudy Chelgren wrote:did Carrie scream because of the shock of not being who she thought she was, or was it the trauma of Laura's life? Either is unsettling. But what it infers is incredibly painful and haunting. Unless the story continues and resolves in some way, the ending is not positive for me. It's deeply poignant.
Good point, I am wondering the same.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Michael Philip » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:05 pm

Novalis wrote:
Michael Philip wrote:...Jeffries switching the owl symbol to infinity....


I keep reading this, but as far as I can remember Jeffries made it into a figure 8, not a lemniscate ( sideways 8 ).


Yes, I think you're right. What I'm saying is that if you think of the owl symbol, each wing being a path into the one world, it's body. Then Jeffries took the two paths and closed them up and made two separate worlds. Then there was that little dot moving around on the lower one to indicate a location, perhaps.

The owl symbol, if it's two superimposed worlds, could be two 6's, one mirror imaged. The 6 on the pole. 15 adds to 6 and 15 was on the electric socket that repelled cooper. When the switch was thrown, it turned into a 3 which sucked him through to Dougie. An eight could be thought of as a 3 with it's mirror image.

Perhaps Jeffries switched it around in that sense, too.

Also, I think there was a 15 in Carrie's address and the Palmer house was 708 which adds to 15 which adds to 6.
Last edited by Michael Philip on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Mystery Roach » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:14 pm

According to the theory I've come to subscribe to, Laura's awakening at the end was akin to a bomb that destroyed Judy, which is why the lights in the house go out. This to me makes the most sense because Cooper is clearly following a plan throughout the entirity of the final part, so why end the show without any indication of what it was or whether it worked? They make us work for the understanding, but I think the pieces fit.

Of course there's a downside. Cooper and Diane had to sacrifice their identities for the plan to work, they may be dead or trapped in limbo, and I have no idea what will become of Laura, who was basically an unwilling pawn of suffering in this whole thing. Plus, there's no way of knowing what became of all the other characters after Cooper prevented Laura from being killed by BOB.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Low Entropy » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:57 pm

Three things.

1. Cooper says see you at the curtain call. So the story is far from being over with the last scene, and continues.

2. I just read the theory that it is indeed a loop, but a loop in which Cooper infinitely succeeds over Judy and saves Laura. A positive loop.

3. Cooper followed the instructions by the Fireman / Giant in crossing over to the Richard / Linda world. I highly doubt that the Fireman would send him to his doom, also I doubt Judy is more powerful than the Fireman and somehow manipulated the path / plot. I also infer that the Fireman's plan for Cooper will lead to victory for him.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Manwith » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:25 pm

Low Entropy wrote:Three things.

1. Cooper says see you at the curtain call. So the story is far from being over with the last scene, and continues.



Cooper has no idea what he's talking about. He's confused, can't find Judy, and doesn't even know what year it is at the end, so I disagree.

Other clues that Cooper doesn't know what he's talking about is the fact that he didn't stop Bob from killing Maddie, and didn't stop Bob from killing Laura (even though he had a premonition it would happen_ per FWWM) and didn't stop Earl from kidnapping and maybe murdering Annie, and didn't stop Diane from getting raped, and didn't stop Audrey from getting raped. If you think Cooper is going to win or knows what he's doing, you are in denial about Cooper's track record.

2. I just read the theory that it is indeed a loop, but a loop in which Cooper infinitely succeeds over Judy and saves Laura. A positive loop.


Cooper doesn't even know where Judy is, and he certainly hasn't stopped her. Theories that he has are just people who really want to deny the evidence that Cooper has a bad ending because they _want_ a happy ending, but a woman screaming in terror as we fade to black is not a happy ending.

3. Cooper followed the instructions by the Fireman / Giant in crossing over to the Richard / Linda world. I highly doubt that the Fireman would send him to his doom, also I doubt Judy is more powerful than the Fireman and somehow manipulated the path / plot. I also infer that the Fireman's plan for Cooper will lead to victory for him.


There's no reason to think the Fireman is more powerful than Judy. Whether the Fireman is intentionally sending Cooper to his doom is unknown, but he did jack squat to save Laura from Bob and tends to just float around doing nothing and saying "it is happening again" in the old show. Zero evidence that he is in a position to defeat Judy or help Cooper. He couldn't even stop Bob from killing Maddie, and Judy is much more powerful than Bob. He was unable to warn Dale that Annie was being targeted by Earle. He's not shown as being in control of things.

Here's Warren Ellis's interpretation:
Cooper attempted a classically heroic thing in an age and place where classical heroes have no agency or ground. Good can never win. Laura Palmer will always be dead, her murder will never have meaning extracted from it, and the continual attempt to do either will doom Dale Cooper forever. This is what we do. We destroy beauty and invite abstracts of hate to live inside us and we will never be free.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Low Entropy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:55 am

What you say is not supported by what we see on screen. For example you omit the event when the Fireman creates Laura as a savior against Bob. Her life has a higher meaning.
You take the scream out of context. The problem Cooper faces is that the Palmers do not live in their house and that "Carrie" has no memories of being Laura. In the last scene, when she hears her name, she screams. So some kind of memory came back. Maybe she will remember all of it? Problem solved.
Cooper made some mistakes in Season 2, but that should be the topic of a Season 2 debate.
And, most importantly. Our age needs heros more than ever, and good will always win over evil.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Kilmoore » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:49 am

Manwith wrote:evidence

That word isn't really applicable here. Everything is too vague and open ended. The positive ending just as well founded in what we've seen as a negative one.

For the record, I don't think that this is a good thing.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby AgentEcho » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:25 am

Whether the season ended on a positive note or negative note is not some objective thing that you figure out by intellectualizing it. It's the feeling you have, the experience you have viewing it (which has always been key to appreciating Lynch's films). And it's totally subjective. If the OP "doesn't understand" why people feel the ending was bleak, the explanation is quite simple. You are not the same person and you have a different experience. And no one's experience is "wrong".

I've only watched the finale twice, but other than the first couple of minutes where Evil Coop is in flames and "Dougie" reunites with the Jones', almost everything about the finale felt disorienting, with a slowly building, creeping sense of dread and doubt which climaxed with a blood curdling scream. I mean look at the sex scene. We have a character having sex with the double of a man who raped her, she's covering his face, and the audio is the same music that preceded a very unsettling sequence of events in Part 8, not to mention creepy dissonance underneath it. It seems to me to be a scene meticulously crafted to be unsettling and create a strong sense of something having gone awry.

The strange behavior of Cooper in that scene and the diner also seemed quite pointed given KM's performance throughout the season. All season long simple expressions and body language were enough for us to tell who he was playing, and now suddenly the line is very blurred. I mean would the Cooper we know put guns in a fryer even though that could be very dangerous? Very unsettling given how much we were invested in Cooper's return.

Then there's this long road trip. Listen to the sound design during it. Very quiet, but there's a disconcerting drone present throughout. Sheryl Lee's wonderfully evocative doubtful glances at Cooper throughout. And it culminates in a scene with more subverted expectations and confirmation that something very different has happened then what Cooper expected. And of course there's the scream. I saw a forum post where someone claimed the Experiment could briefly be seen in one of the windows of the Palmer house before it went black, so I went and watched the final moment a few times. I never saw the experiment but I heard Laura's scream over and over.... it's genuinely bone chilling. At least that's my experience, but you know if someone has a good feeling hearing it that is their experience and it can't be questioned.

Nevertheless most of the creative decisions seemed more concerned with creating a feeling of dread over a positive note, so it shouldn't be confusing why people have an experience viewing it come away with a sense of bleakness. At the very least it is not an invalid experience.
Last edited by AgentEcho on Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Ashok » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:27 am

I feel like people that want a happy ending will read into this like there is hope. If they want a bad ending, there is plenty of reason to believe Coop has hit a dead end. But I don't think there's any way to know unless Lynch makes a Season 4. All I know is that as long as Coop are Laura are alive somewhere in time, I'm rooting for them!
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Manwith » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:08 am

AgentEcho wrote:
Nevertheless most of the creative decisions seemed more concerned with creating a feeling of dread over a positive note


For this reason I think the negative interpretation is more grounded that a positive interpretation based on the design of the scenes in the final episode.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Manwith » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:11 am

Low Entropy wrote:Our age needs heros more than ever, and good will always win over evil.


Good doesn't always win over evil in real life. There's plenty of shows that depict the theme "good will always win over evil" but Twin Peaks is not one of them. If Lynch wanted to depict that theme he would have ended it more like Inland Empire, presumably. There would have been a big curtain call party and everyone would be happy.

Fun party image I saw on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comments/6y6pqq/no_spoilers_the_party_dale_missed/

Image
Last edited by Manwith on Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Deep Thought » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:16 am

Mystery Roach wrote:According to the theory I've come to subscribe to, Laura's awakening at the end was akin to a bomb that destroyed Judy, which is why the lights in the house go out. This to me makes the most sense because Cooper is clearly following a plan throughout the entirity of the final part, so why end the show without any indication of what it was or whether it worked? They make us work for the understanding, but I think the pieces fit.

Of course there's a downside. Cooper and Diane had to sacrifice their identities for the plan to work, they may be dead or trapped in limbo, and I have no idea what will become of Laura, who was basically an unwilling pawn of suffering in this whole thing. Plus, there's no way of knowing what became of all the other characters after Cooper prevented Laura from being killed by BOB.


Watching 17 and 18 together in sync supports exactly this view. Sarah/Judy is creating a fog over Laura and Cooper. Coop losses the thread when Judy starts her incantation, but Laura saves him and destroys Judy's hold on the world for the moment at least with her realization of her true self.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Low Entropy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:48 am

In my opinion we see a clear distinction between good and evil, and a clear concept of karma in Season 3. Violent means meet violent ends. Hastings wife betrays her husband, leaves him in jail, and gets shop by Mr. C in the next scene. Hutch and Chantal are murderers without moral and scruples and get riddled with bullets in one of the most violent scenes in Season 3. Richard is one of the most evil characters and he gets electrocuted by his own father. Warden Murphy is likely involved in some sick, sick shit and he gets executed in front of his son. Similar, good people get rewarded. Ed gets together with Norma. Janey-E gets her happy end with Dougie. Now there are some scenes that seem brutal and unfair. The hit and run scene with the kid is hard to stomach. But we see his soul going up to heaven. The Log Lady scenes are heartbreaking. But to her and Hawk, death is just a transition. Even in such scenes, Lynch comes off as a believer in goodness.
With this "evidence", I find it hard to believe the ending of Season 3 is negative or shows a failure. Lynch has something better in store for a person as goodhearted and heroic as Cooper.

Now there are some scenes that fit not into this. Like how did the woman that was nearly beat to death by Richard deserve this (I'm sure people will throw more scenes like this at me). But the majority of the scenes are not like this. You have to look at the big picture.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby mine » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:48 pm

Manwith wrote:
Low Entropy wrote:Our age needs heros more than ever, and good will always win over evil.


Good doesn't always win over evil in real life. There's plenty of shows that depict the theme "good will always win over evil" but Twin Peaks is not one of them. If Lynch wanted to depict that theme he would have ended it more like Inland Empire, presumably. There would have been a big curtain call party and everyone would be happy.

Fun party image I saw on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comments/6y6pqq/no_spoilers_the_party_dale_missed/

Image

By the same logic if Lynch knew where he was going with the finale (and The Return as a whole) he'd ended it on a less ambiguous note. Previous incarnations of Twin Peaks's endings were a lot of things, ambiguous however isn't one of them.

You're right in your assessment of how the scenes in the finale were constructed. There's a perpetual feeling of the characters moving forward very reluctantly. It's masterfully done and very effective. Even the car rides. But they never add up too much. A mood is not enough of an argument here. It's not even uncommon to construct narratives that end with a happy ending on a build up that is overall pessimistic. It's actually the basic approach because it elevates the positive outcome.

The original Twin Peaks, apparently, resonated with many who went through what Laura has because of Leland. I think Sheryl Lee said she was approached by many child sexual abuse survivors. This means that what Laura was going through was conveyed very well. There's nothing remotely similar in The Return. whatever themes it was supposed to be tackling (for instance some interpret the ending as negative in terms of Laura being inevitably dead) just don't resonate. Who doesn't understand evil isn't always defeated or anything relating to death? But The Return doesn't really deal with any of that. It's a show about awkward uncomfortable moods and usually conveys them masterfully in individual scenes. But there's no narrative that makes whatever Cooper was up to even defined enough to offer much basis for interpretation let alone assessing the ending as a success or otherwise. The final scene in front of the house is extremely unsettling but that doesn't mean it negates the possibility of a positive outcome. It's again like most of The Return about a mood not any deeper meaning.
It's not about what one wants to see in it, but about those who wrote it so it's not an epilogue, it's not even clear what it's supposed to be an epilogue to. This in itself would not necessarily be an issue if The Return wasn't supposed to be the epilogue of the Twin Peaks universe.
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Re: Season 3 Ended On A Positive Note (Spoilers)

Postby Low Entropy » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:41 pm

Maybe we can agree that the ending at least is open, i.e. not definitely negative.
But to me, there is much more evidence for a happy ending than otherwise. For example, why would the Fireman create the Laura Orb as a counterforce against Bob, if Laura is doomed in the end anyway? Unless Laura and Cooper willingly sacrificed themselves to defeat Judy. But this is not a true negative ending then either.

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