Important JUDY Related Observation

Moderators: Annie, BookhouseBoyBob, Ross, Jerry Horne, Brad D

User avatar
dud
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:09 pm
Location: North Jersey

Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby dud » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:05 pm

as others have pointed out, 'Jao De' can be translated as 'to explain', certainly the true evil force of the twin peaks universe. 'Jao De' killed the mystery of laura palmer, the goose laying the golden eggs. mystery = the heart of twin peaks, while explanation = the true killer

in the sequence where bad coop visits phillip at the convenience store, phillip tells him that bad coop can talk to judy himself and bad coop is then transported to the phonebooth right outside of the convenience store. this is right when it is revealed to us that richard is definitely audrey's son...another mystery killed by the evil force of twin peaks universe: explanation.
User avatar
TimeFlashes
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby TimeFlashes » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:12 pm

Good observation. It also makes me think about how we are like Cooper's doppelganger, looking for answers (Judy) but failing miserably.

Another thing that could be interesting is the monkey saying "Judy" in FWWM, possibly representing evolution.
Always a face to remind me.
User avatar
DoppelBocker
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:14 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby DoppelBocker » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:46 pm

How would you liken "To explain" as the negative force within Twin Peaks to "infinity" (owl ring seems to revert into a symbol of sorts)?
User avatar
powerleftist
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby powerleftist » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:17 am

I agree with you, this Judy thing feels like a meta game, and not a good one IMO.
gladhand
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 8:49 am

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby gladhand » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:40 am

Some of you who are more on the ball might be able to answer these questions....

I thought Judy was meant to be based in Seattle (that's what Jeffries said in 1989) so why didn't Cooper go to Seattle if he was looking for Judy? Who told him she was in Odessa? It didn't really gel in my mind, when he saw Judy's diner in Odessa, that it was really related.

In Buenos Aires, we saw a wooden box with a flashing red light on it:

Image

It then, at a later date, turned into a gold ball (Wikipedia is calling them seeds). Why? Was the box also Phillip? It seemed to be able to receive telephone calls.

Later on, still, Phillip was represented by a sort of talking kettle / teapot, in the convenience store. When did he transform from the wooden box to a kettle? Or is he two things, in two different locations? Two Phillips?
User avatar
Deep Thought
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:05 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Deep Thought » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:55 am

gladhand wrote:Some of you who are more on the ball might be able to answer these questions....

I thought Judy was meant to be based in Seattle (that's what Jeffries said in 1989) so why didn't Cooper go to Seattle if he was looking for Judy? Who told him she was in Odessa? It didn't really gel in my mind, when he saw Judy's diner in Odessa, that it was really related.

In Buenos Aires, we saw a wooden box with a flashing red light on it:

Image

It then, at a later date, turned into a gold ball (Wikipedia is calling them seeds). Why? Was the box also Phillip? It seemed to be able to receive telephone calls.

Later on, still, Phillip was represented by a sort of talking kettle / teapot, in the convenience store. When did he transform from the wooden box to a kettle? Or is he two things, in two different locations? Two Phillips?


The box doesn't turn into a gold ball, but rather something more like an iron nugget. The box is a relay, like the one Mr. C. has in his case, which transmits communications between worlds. It was manufactured for a purpose, and when that was complete, yes, it reverted to its seed.
"E.g." means "for example". What I think you want to say is "i.e.".
User avatar
Cappy
Posts: 293
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:27 am

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Cappy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:56 am

So if Judy is another way of saying "to explain", then ultimately Bad Coop is searching for the explanation for everything in Twin Peaks. Is this why he is a villain, because he is attempting to reduce the vastness of the world down to an explanation? And by contrast, is Dougie a hero specifically because he doesn't attempt to impose logic on his surroundings, but rather lets his surroundings impose themselves on him? That is potentially meta-commentary on the experience of watching Twin Peaks...

But in terms of Cooper's journey, I think he has to defeat or overcome that aspect of himself that wants to impose explanations on the world. His Dougie experiences have helped him in that regard. I think to understand Laura's situation he has to step back and listen, which might be what the final end credits are suggesting.

Judy isn't something that has to be defeated in the sense of Freddy Kreuger or Gozer from Ghostbusters, but maybe Judy is a concept or way of thinking that has to be done away... The real awfulness of Judy might be that it masks Laura's domestic abuse with fantastical excuses. If Sarah is Judy on some level, then maybe that's what Sarah is doing -- sweeping her daughter's pain under the rug with excuses.

Possibly to stop Judy, Cooper has to make Sarah confront her complicity and silence in Laura's abuse?
User avatar
Methedrome
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 12:40 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Methedrome » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:44 am

This sounds intriguing, but can someone provide specifics on how the word could be interpreted to mean "To Explain"?
User avatar
Mr. Strawberry
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:17 pm
Location: Nevada City, CA
Contact:

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:49 am

gladhand wrote:Some of you who are more on the ball might be able to answer these questions....

I thought Judy was meant to be based in Seattle (that's what Jeffries said in 1989) so why didn't Cooper go to Seattle if he was looking for Judy? Who told him she was in Odessa? It didn't really gel in my mind, when he saw Judy's diner in Odessa, that it was really related.

In Buenos Aires, we saw a wooden box with a flashing red light on it:

Image

It then, at a later date, turned into a gold ball (Wikipedia is calling them seeds). Why? Was the box also Phillip? It seemed to be able to receive telephone calls.

Later on, still, Phillip was represented by a sort of talking kettle / teapot, in the convenience store. When did he transform from the wooden box to a kettle? Or is he two things, in two different locations? Two Phillips?

Unfortunately I cannot determine what this box is, what purpose it is supposed to serve, or what significance in the story it has. However, I can identify elements of the setting in which it appears because I happen to live in Gold Country / Mother Lode Country and the scene presents a very familiar sight.

The box is resting in a gold pan which prospectors use when panning for gold in streams. The pan is resting between the rails of a track used by mine carts to transport ore and materials related to mining, therefore it seems that the box is located within a gold mine in Argentina. These observations lead to the conclusion that the box transforms into a gold nugget.
Not taking any calls.
User avatar
Methedrome
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 12:40 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Methedrome » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:41 am

So I guess there is no credible proof that Judy could be interpreted to mean "to explain"?
User avatar
DoppelBocker
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 11:14 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby DoppelBocker » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:19 am

I haven't been too invested in learning anything more about Judy as kind of felt like the next foreshadowed big bad after an unsatisfying payoff with Bob in episode 17. (I made my case for what thought about this here here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3808) Is Judy just a meta way of replacing a previous story based big bad? (Edit: initial reaction to this personally is thinking if Judy becomes defined then will maybe have similar unsatisfying conculsion like Bob had but in retrospect Bob ingrained into 90's Twin Peaks like Judy is in the new Twin Peaks I suppose).

So I guess there is no credible proof that Judy could be interpreted to mean "to explain"?


The meta-commentary discussion here is interesting. I like what Cappy just said elaborating upon what OP is trying to sum up in a nutshell.

That being said, I'm kind of suprised people haven't been looking into the sequence of images Phillip Jeffries puts the owl ring symbol into. It seems to change to a number 8 which is then flipped around (for a moment narrowed into what looks like an infinity symbol) with a ball that then moves around within it before settling into place. Does this relate at all to the explained vs. unexplained meta-discussion and/or carry specific story significance?



Going away from this area of discussion and focusing on few other things brought up:

by gladhand
Some of you who are more on the ball might be able to answer these questions....

I thought Judy was meant to be based in Seattle (that's what Jeffries said in 1989) so why didn't Cooper go to Seattle if he was looking for Judy? Who told him she was in Odessa? It didn't really gel in my mind, when he saw Judy's diner in Odessa, that it was really related.


I'm under the impression that this question had perhaps a more accurate answer if another prequel film would've been made back in the early 90's. As it wasn't, I'll just go with notion that Judy was originally (not talking how presented in "The Return" series MANY years later after FWWM) conceived as a woman and there may/may not have been some association she had to a convenience store in Seattle (whether she was going to be Josie's sister or not writers were perhaps leaving to decide on if a follow-up to FWWM had occurred).

Of course, many years later when the TSHoTP book came out giving enough background info. on Josie, little room was left for having a sister as Mark Frost probably knew that Season 3 ultimately decided going against some of the creative notions it seems that may have been tossed about to some small extent in the early 90's. Season 3 of course has no mention of Seattle nor any woman who perhaps lives there (or perhaps is associated with a convenience store) let alone any connection to Josie. Of course this is not a retcon as the answer to the questions Jeffrie's scene in FWWM raised when the movie came out were just questions. However, I do think that perhaps with Season 3 we of course got a somewhat variant take to the question of Judy's identity, perhaps a different backstory on the convenience store, as well as no mention of Seattle.

That being said, having a Judy's restaurant owned in Odessa, TX I wonder if perhaps is Lynch's way of sort of offering an alternative take on who/what Judy is than the backstory we get on Judy in season 3 (pre-episode 18) perhaps re-visiting some of the original unfinished creative notions never really able to be explore due to nothing being made after FWWM in the 90's. Perhaps the Judy's restaurant in Odessa sort of draws off the originally conceived idea of Judy perhaps being associated in some way to a place of business in Seattle which of course raises some questions about the restaurant such as who owns it, if there's a room above it, and so forth.



by gladhand
It then, at a later date, turned into a gold ball (Wikipedia is calling them seeds). Why? Was the box also Phillip? It seemed to be able to receive telephone calls.

Later on, still, Phillip was represented by a sort of talking kettle / teapot, in the convenience store. When did he transform from the wooden box to a kettle? Or is he two things, in two different locations? Two Phillips


by Deep Thought
The box doesn't turn into a gold ball, but rather something more like an iron nugget. The box is a relay, like the one Mr. C. has in his case, which transmits communications between worlds. It was manufactured for a purpose, and when that was complete, yes, it reverted to its seed.


Jeffries we know breifly appears in Beunos Aires for some reason in FWWM (Jeffries prequel movie never made after FWWM so hard see his connection to Buenos Aires exactly) before/after his appearance in Gordon Cole's office. The static fade-out and scream we see in the theatrical release upon disappearing from Cole's office I took as a cue that he's become lost totally and utterly but of course in Season 3 find there's some essence of him left in some dispersed manner.

Mr. C (who came by lots of money presumably through criminal activity) buys a mansion down in Beunos Aires at some point. Why this location? My theory is that it seems he was able to track where Jeffries had shown up from (beunos aires) placing a relay device in an appropriate location here (in his mansion I'm guessing originally before concealing it in pan in alley after deciding to leave perhaps knowing 25 yr loop almost up where may be sent back to lodge).

As we see in episode 2, Mr. C. carry's a portable relay device with him as well. I guess this device he uses in his hotel room can be likened to a modem (not actually a modem but just comparing to one) which linked up to various devices at set geographical coordinates like the one in Beunos Aires. The box at Beunos Aires is like an ISP central hub/internet server but in this case there's only 1 channel of contact which is Phillip Jeffries. Presumably other boxes could be placed elsewhere on earth with specific purpose of contacting displaced spirits that have once wandered our earthly plane of existence based on my interpretation.

by Mr. Strawberry
Unfortunately I cannot determine what this box is, what purpose it is supposed to serve, or what significance in the story it has. However, I can identify elements of the setting in which it appears because I happen to live in Gold Country / Mother Lode Country and the scene presents a very familiar sight.

The box is resting in a gold pan which prospectors use when panning for gold in streams. The pan is resting between the rails of a track used by mine carts to transport ore and materials related to mining, therefore it seems that the box is located within a gold mine in Argentina. These observations lead to the conclusion that the box transforms into a gold nugget.


Material Type: I think the material can be likened to the material mentioned in TSHoTP book. While Lynch hasn't read it, Frost is privy to some of the planning behind Season 3. There's mention of metal flakes found at a UFO crash landing site that are put into a cereal box and lost. The material appears to be argent. It's also the key word used to destroy this box in Beunos Aires (Mr. C presumably gave to the lady to send to box by text message once hit on Dougie finished).

Seed?: When the box is destroyed it balls up but I'm not sure it can be likened to a "seed" but rather due to the material type and fact it's sort of a transdimensional contact point being suddenly cutoff.

Pan: The pan being compared to a prospectors plate for gold is a fitting analogy. Perhaps there's some sort of Eastern cultural connection too?
Last edited by DoppelBocker on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:44 pm, edited 9 times in total.
User avatar
Mystery Roach
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:27 am

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Mystery Roach » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:55 am

Not to derail the conversation, but has anyone caught this definition yet?

Jiào dé
Screamed

There's something interesting to me about that in relation to the final moment of the show.
User avatar
Mr. Reindeer
Posts: 1487
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:59 pm

Wasn’t sure of the best place to put this. I guess this can be a sort of de facto Judy thread?

In FWWM, in his road rage tirade, Mike says of the canned corn/garmonbozia: “And Miss, the look on her face when it was opened!”

HER face? :shock: Is the garmonbozia an offering to Judy?
claaa7
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:47 am

Re: Important JUDY Related Observation

Postby claaa7 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:59 am

Cappy wrote:But in terms of Cooper's journey, I think he has to defeat or overcome that aspect of himself that wants to impose explanations on the world. His Dougie experiences have helped him in that regard. I think to understand Laura's situation he has to step back and listen, which might be what the final end credits are suggesting.

Judy isn't something that has to be defeated in the sense of Freddy Kreuger or Gozer from Ghostbusters, but maybe Judy is a concept or way of thinking that has to be done away... The real awfulness of Judy might be that it masks Laura's domestic abuse with fantastical excuses. If Sarah is Judy on some level, then maybe that's what Sarah is doing -- sweeping her daughter's pain under the rug with excuses.

Possibly to stop Judy, Cooper has to make Sarah confront her complicity and silence in Laura's abuse?


co-signing this.. most of Lynch's film invites a reading where the punchline could be said to be "the truth shall set you free". a journey to enlightenment which is reached by defeating or properly understanding and overcoming suffocating negativity by shining a big ol' light on it. that's why i don't feel that Sarah is the frog-bug girl but rather that she let her emotions and guilt eat her away and infect her (invaded by an extreme negative force). so i think defeating Judy would be similiar to defeating the Phantom in Inland Empire - and i also think that Sarah must be the one to do it. only she can come to that realization, and the most likely person to help her get there is Laura Palmer.

Return to “Season 3 (2017) The Return (Spoilers)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], LostPhillipJeffries and 19 guests