So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

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Poiuyt
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Poiuyt » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:36 am

They're really too different to properly compare.

The Return lost me pretty quickly during its airing; I think I stopped caring before it was halfway over; but there were moments throughout that topped and even transcended the original.

Again, I don't think it's right to compare the two. I'll probably always prefer the format of the original show and the "trapped in amber" quality of it, flaws and all, but DL clearly put his heart and soul into The Return, and I respect that. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to watch it again with a clear head someday.
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referendum
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby referendum » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:32 am

the original show and the "trapped in amber" quality of it


great way of putting it, thanks :)
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richsmith
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby richsmith » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:20 am

There are moments of the original, including the pilot, the first dream, Maddie's murder and the final episode, that cannot be touched. I think partly that's because I was at the age when it first aired that I'd never seen anything like it before, and that's a powerful feeling that can't really be recaptured once you're older. Additionally, now in retrospect it's a marvel that those aforementioned moments of the first two seasons ever made it to air on network TV: it was Lynch/Frost getting away with murder, in numerous senses of the word.

However, the Return overall is a stronger piece of work than anything TP-related, other than perhaps FWWM. There are vast swaths of the original show, the latter half of Season 2 of course, but even the soapier elements of Season 1, that honestly I couldn't care less about anymore. The journey across the 18 hours of the new season was far deeper, more profound, more challenging, mysterious and mind-blowing than the original series.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby LateReg » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:08 am

I think The Return is unquestionably the strongest individual season of Twin Peaks. It's more ambitious than the near-perfect season 1, and more consistent than season 2, which contains the highest highs of the original series.

As a whole I think it is therefore better, while elevating the original series at the same time, as Cipher said. The original series becomes more fascinating for me, more complete, because we now have a series that starts strong, suffers a drop in quality for merely 10 or so episodes, and then resurrects itself. Instead of a disappointing final stretch, the end of season 2 now just becomes a minor lull before one hell of a storm.

I think The Return is greater than Fire Walk With Me, as well. It's the wildest and most ambitious thing I've ever seen on TV, and I took the plunge the other day and watched it as an 18-hour film, and it felt so complete, flowed so naturally, and now that I know the ending, felt effortless to watch. I've watched it again since then and felt equally moved and amazed, like I'm only scratching the surface. I think it's even greater than I'm leading on, but I don't want to be accused of hyperbole, and think it deserves to settle and unsettle me even more before making any concrete proclamations. But as a guy who felt uneasy about many elements throughout while also feeling that it made everything else I was watching at the time seem plain, I can tell you that when I was finally able to relax with the whole picture in front of me, I felt ecstatically certain about the entire enterprise, so much so that I stayed off this message board for a week to process and re-experience what I had seen and felt without outside influence. I think it's as astounding an artistic achievement as any made in my lifetime.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby mtwentz » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:33 am

LateReg wrote:I think The Return is unquestionably the strongest individual season of Twin Peaks. It's more ambitious than the near-perfect season 1, and more consistent than season 2, which contains the highest highs of the original series.

As a whole I think it is therefore better, while elevating the original series at the same time, as Cipher said. The original series becomes more fascinating for me, more complete, because we now have a series that starts strong, suffers a drop in quality for merely 10 or so episodes, and then resurrects itself. Instead of a disappointing final stretch, the end of season 2 now just becomes a minor lull before one hell of a storm.

I think The Return is greater than Fire Walk With Me, as well. It's the wildest and most ambitious thing I've ever seen on TV, and I took the plunge the other day and watched it as an 18-hour film, and it felt so complete, flowed so naturally, and now that I know the ending, felt effortless to watch. I've watched it again since then and felt equally moved and amazed, like I'm only scratching the surface. I think it's even greater than I'm leading on, but I don't want to be accused of hyperbole, and think it deserves to settle and unsettle me even more before making any concrete proclamations. But as a guy who felt uneasy about many elements throughout while also feeling that it made everything else I was watching at the time seem plain, I can tell you that when I was finally able to relax with the whole picture in front of me, I felt ecstatically certain about the entire enterprise, so much so that I stayed off this message board for a week to process and re-experience what I had seen and felt without outside influence. I think it's as astounding an artistic achievement as any made in my lifetime.


Upside: The visual and audio feast that is The Return is stunning. The surrealism in The Return can put me in a state of near Nirvana.

Downside: I think the main points of controversy for The Return will always be the storytelling and the 'character development'. If you want a concise understandable plot with a beginning and an end, The Return can be a bitter pill to swallow. In fact, much of the actual plot was never actually revealed, even at the end of Part 18. So I can definitely see why some posters here find the show difficult to follow and/or relate with.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby LateReg » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:39 am

mtwentz wrote:
LateReg wrote:I think The Return is unquestionably the strongest individual season of Twin Peaks. It's more ambitious than the near-perfect season 1, and more consistent than season 2, which contains the highest highs of the original series.

As a whole I think it is therefore better, while elevating the original series at the same time, as Cipher said. The original series becomes more fascinating for me, more complete, because we now have a series that starts strong, suffers a drop in quality for merely 10 or so episodes, and then resurrects itself. Instead of a disappointing final stretch, the end of season 2 now just becomes a minor lull before one hell of a storm.

I think The Return is greater than Fire Walk With Me, as well. It's the wildest and most ambitious thing I've ever seen on TV, and I took the plunge the other day and watched it as an 18-hour film, and it felt so complete, flowed so naturally, and now that I know the ending, felt effortless to watch. I've watched it again since then and felt equally moved and amazed, like I'm only scratching the surface. I think it's even greater than I'm leading on, but I don't want to be accused of hyperbole, and think it deserves to settle and unsettle me even more before making any concrete proclamations. But as a guy who felt uneasy about many elements throughout while also feeling that it made everything else I was watching at the time seem plain, I can tell you that when I was finally able to relax with the whole picture in front of me, I felt ecstatically certain about the entire enterprise, so much so that I stayed off this message board for a week to process and re-experience what I had seen and felt without outside influence. I think it's as astounding an artistic achievement as any made in my lifetime.


Upside: The visual and audio feast that is The Return is stunning. The surrealism in The Return can put me in a state of near Nirvana.

Downside: I think the main points of controversy for The Return will always be the storytelling and the 'character development'. If you want a concise understandable plot with a beginning and an end, The Return can be a bitter pill to swallow. In fact, much of the actual plot was never actually revealed, even at the end of Part 18. So I can definitely see why some posters here find the show difficult to follow and/or relate with.


I agree, and luckily for me I view that downside as an absolute upside that pushes this thing into a whole new realm of narrative storytelling. Its approach to character and narrative hit me in the sweet spot, enhancing the dreamlike nature, dropping us into these characters' lives 25 years later in impressionistic fashion, and unspooling its narrative outwards rather than forwards. It's key to the ballsy success of this piece.
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mtwentz
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby mtwentz » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:42 am

LateReg wrote:
mtwentz wrote:
LateReg wrote:I think The Return is unquestionably the strongest individual season of Twin Peaks. It's more ambitious than the near-perfect season 1, and more consistent than season 2, which contains the highest highs of the original series.

As a whole I think it is therefore better, while elevating the original series at the same time, as Cipher said. The original series becomes more fascinating for me, more complete, because we now have a series that starts strong, suffers a drop in quality for merely 10 or so episodes, and then resurrects itself. Instead of a disappointing final stretch, the end of season 2 now just becomes a minor lull before one hell of a storm.

I think The Return is greater than Fire Walk With Me, as well. It's the wildest and most ambitious thing I've ever seen on TV, and I took the plunge the other day and watched it as an 18-hour film, and it felt so complete, flowed so naturally, and now that I know the ending, felt effortless to watch. I've watched it again since then and felt equally moved and amazed, like I'm only scratching the surface. I think it's even greater than I'm leading on, but I don't want to be accused of hyperbole, and think it deserves to settle and unsettle me even more before making any concrete proclamations. But as a guy who felt uneasy about many elements throughout while also feeling that it made everything else I was watching at the time seem plain, I can tell you that when I was finally able to relax with the whole picture in front of me, I felt ecstatically certain about the entire enterprise, so much so that I stayed off this message board for a week to process and re-experience what I had seen and felt without outside influence. I think it's as astounding an artistic achievement as any made in my lifetime.


Upside: The visual and audio feast that is The Return is stunning. The surrealism in The Return can put me in a state of near Nirvana.

Downside: I think the main points of controversy for The Return will always be the storytelling and the 'character development'. If you want a concise understandable plot with a beginning and an end, The Return can be a bitter pill to swallow. In fact, much of the actual plot was never actually revealed, even at the end of Part 18. So I can definitely see why some posters here find the show difficult to follow and/or relate with.


I agree, and luckily for me I view that downside as an absolute upside that pushes this thing into a whole new realm of narrative storytelling. Its approach to character and narrative hit me in the sweet spot, enhancing the dreamlike nature, dropping us into these characters' lives 25 years later in impressionistic fashion, and unspooling its narrative outwards rather than forwards. It's key to the ballsy success of this piece.


Yes, to clarify, the storytelling is not necessarily a 'downside'. 'Difficult' is not necessarily the same as 'bad'.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby BGate » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:51 pm

It's apples and oranges. If Frost and Lynch had been able to make the original the way they made The Return, who knows how incredible it would have been? But, as it stands, I think The Return is a far more consistently great and cohesive artistic statement.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:49 pm

The Return annoys me less since I haven't seen it hundreds of times but give me 25 years not watching original Twin Peaks and I'll tell you- it hasn't aged well. For now, they're both middle of the road.

Twin Peaks is my wife, the love of my life, and The Return is an ugly mistress who is still kinda fun.
Last edited by sylvia_north on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BloodyHeartland
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby BloodyHeartland » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:33 pm

It's a very mixed bag for me all around. The Return is fresh in my mind while it's been a few years since the original, for one thing. Another being that while there were a few characters I liked a lot in TR, the new characters weren't very interesting for the most part. That said, season 2 felt very unfocused and I didn't really care much for Ben's mid life crisis or Audrey's new romance or Nadine's childlike episode. Windom was nice but also a bit ott. Still, also a lot of great moments.
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Nikki Grace
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Nikki Grace » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:57 pm

I was reading this wonderful summary and ending theorising from David Auerbach on The Return (which Kyle MacLachlan tweeted, and said he found interesting!) and it just brought home so much of what I loved about The Return. I am kind of in awe of what Lynch and Frost made here. I've never known a series do so much in such complicated ways without ever drawing attention to what exactly it is that it's doing, nor have I experienced something so tantalising and intellectually exciting. It's a different beast from the original, and I will always adore the original, but The Return is sticking with me in ways the original didn't.

https://www.waggish.org/2017/twin-peaks-finale/ Has this been posted yet? It really is wonderful, I'd suggest everyone read it, even those on the fence. It's very popular at the moment on twitter and google it seems.

Edit: wrong link, fixed
Last edited by Nikki Grace on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Nikki Grace » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:04 pm

Agent Earle wrote:The Return is shite and to call it "Twin Peaks" is an abomination. Better than the original?! Don't make me laugh. Frost, Peyton, Lynch & Engels all the way baby!


I like the scope of the eighteen hour format, in my opinion it works better and more cohesively, especially with how retrospectively you can see how timings have been played with and echoes across the series. The original is a beautiful work of art but I really dislike a great deal of season two, and while many of the network constraints led to some of the great moments on the show (because sometimes limitations can lead to creative inspiration), I also find occasions when it leaves me wanting and unfulfilled. So The Return was more of a success for me in both of those areas.

I didn't want to get into a competitive thing, I love both, and it goes without saying that both rely on each other. I think The Return is a better all round endeavour however, at least for my preferences and taste in Twin Peaks. I also love how the ideals of the characters and Lynch-Frost responsible for writing them have changed over the quarter century; I would refer anyone again to the wonderful article written that I linked to talk about how Cooper's character has evolved to do what he had to do in the finale. The show feels more world-weary but in a way that is very realistic and prescient.

Speaking of which, did anyone else find echoes of Tarkovsky in The Return? Especially the ideas about sacrifice. I am not sure if David Lynch or Mark Frost have ever made reference to his movies.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Firewalkwithme91 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:14 pm

Speaking of which, did anyone else find echoes of Tarkovsky in The Return? Especially the ideas about sacrifice. I am not sure if David Lynch or Mark Frost have ever made reference to his movies.


Not thematically but during the long driving scenes with Cooper and Carrie I got some serious "Stalker"-vibes, more specifically the long car ride before they get to the Zone (Bill Hastings´obsession? :mrgreen: )
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:17 pm

Yes, me. This was the best thing I've watched, i reckon. But I do wish it more heart - lots of Lynch films lack heart, for me. I suppose I was only invested in the TP:TR characters because of the fact I had watched the original.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:39 pm

It was miles and miles above the original, which today is just a quirky melodrama.

Not all narrative is interested in character/heart as the main focus (teenage writers are capable of stories with heart). The Return is a parable about the inability to return home, and many other ideas, like performance and stillness over plot.

It's an avant garde narrative, and people who only appreciate or understand traditional Aristotelian narrative can't and won't enjoy it.

But when you consider the level of artistic achievement in The Return, the conversation isn't really about comparing it to the original, but comparing it to some of the greatest artworks ever created.

It's like comparing Happy Days to Apocalypse Now.
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