So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

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BGAP
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby BGAP » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:41 am

Nikki Grace wrote:
Agent Earle wrote:The Return is shite and to call it "Twin Peaks" is an abomination. Better than the original?! Don't make me laugh. Frost, Peyton, Lynch & Engels all the way baby!


I like the scope of the eighteen hour format, in my opinion it works better and more cohesively, especially with how retrospectively you can see how timings have been played with and echoes across the series. The original is a beautiful work of art but I really dislike a great deal of season two, and while many of the network constraints led to some of the great moments on the show (because sometimes limitations can lead to creative inspiration), I also find occasions when it leaves me wanting and unfulfilled. So The Return was more of a success for me in both of those areas.

I didn't want to get into a competitive thing, I love both, and it goes without saying that both rely on each other. I think The Return is a better all round endeavour however, at least for my preferences and taste in Twin Peaks. I also love how the ideals of the characters and Lynch-Frost responsible for writing them have changed over the quarter century; I would refer anyone again to the wonderful article written that I linked to talk about how Cooper's character has evolved to do what he had to do in the finale. The show feels more world-weary but in a way that is very realistic and prescient.

Speaking of which, did anyone else find echoes of Tarkovsky in The Return? Especially the ideas about sacrifice. I am not sure if David Lynch or Mark Frost have ever made reference to his movies.


Yes! Also noticed echoes, if not blatant references, to Stan Brakhage, Bruce Conner, Terence Malick, Alain Resnais and of course, Stanley Kubrick.
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Novalis
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Novalis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:55 am

Cipher wrote:I also think it's telling there were some fans -- on both the disappointed and enraptured side -- who read the presentation of scenes like Ed and Norma's reunion as being so grandiose it was cynical. I think that says more about the audience than about the work. To me that scene is one of absolute, unbridled pleasure -- a suit Lynch's works slip on as easily as they do atmospheric horror. It's raw sentiment, and it reverberates off the footage's landscapes just as comfortably as the more usual sense of unease.


Not exactly cynical in my case, more an awareness that a fairytale ending for two beloved characters can be both fairytale and sincere at one and the same time. It's possible my use of the term 'fantasy' threw some readers of my original post on the matter. Fantasy is not something I see as opposed to reality, but something that supports its consistency. In my view you can't strip reality of fantasy; the attempt to do so injures the very realism of reality.

On a purely affective level, the sweetness of Ed and Norma's final scenes together are profoundly touching and stimulate the old tear ducts into production. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. But I'm more than a creature of raw emotion, and the very raw sincerity of these scenes are, paradoxically, the thing that makes them stand out and open themselves to deeper thought. From a psychoanalytic point of view, being witness to the fulfilled fantasy of people and being able to sustain the thought that it remains fantasy doesn't render it less real, on the contrary it sheds light on the constructed nature of reality and realism itself, its basis in desire. Whether that tells you I don't invest fully in characters, don't immerse enough, or am just generally mistaken in 'overthinking' cinema or not is hard for me to gauge. What I mean to say is that affect theory definitely has a place here, and scenes like this are obviously about the reward and beauty they allow us to feel above all else, but these raw emotional 'facts' are not in my view a place to stop thinking and go silent in our analysis but a place to follow through with it in all its implications. This is why I said in a much earlier post that Ed and Norma get what they wanted, and the feeling that this is an eternal moment, with blue skies and expansive views of landscape and a swelling soundtrack, has the nature of a fantasy. When I wrote this I was not being cynical but pointing to it as a foundational fantasy -- a fantasy that is robust and sincere enough that it can sustain a more temporal reality such as marriage. We don't necessarily need to see the reality that is and will be built upon the fantasy to arrive at this conclusion, and it isn't shown to us. My attitude towards the fantasy is an affirmative one, one of trusting it, not suspicion and scepticism.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Cipher » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:01 am

That's a completely fair take, and I think one largely aligned with my own. I didn't meant to single out your interpretation -- or anyone's -- but rather to invoke a chain of reactions that seemed to think the scene was intended to play over the characters' heads, or that the sentiment conveyed by the visuals and music wasn't to be trusted or enjoyed. Happiness in the moment can feel like fantasy, and look like fantasy, but that doesn't mean you have to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's okay to relish with abandon, and to have art that embraces that feeling.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby referendum » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:10 am

@cipher '@novalis...''has the nature of a fantasy. When I wrote this I was not being cynical but pointing to it as a foundational fantasy -- a fantasy that is robust and sincere enough that it can sustain a more temporal reality ''

It seems to me like wish-fulfilment has been a big theme in this series. Norma and big Ed. Mr Jackpots. The Mitchum's insurance pay off. Coop's 'vision' of saving Laura and Pete Martell going fishing without incident. Janey E and Sonny Jim getting an ' ideal dad'. Sarah's revenge on the misogynist slimeball in the bar. Several more examples struck me as the series went along. To say nothing of the fact that the entire series was a kind of wish fufilment for alot of people, be they fans, members of the cast, or Lynch and Frost themselves.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby The Marquis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:56 am

My reaction to this question requires no thinking. While I loved the original 2 seasons and consider it my favorite television show ever, The Return to me was 100x superior to the original show in every possible way. The best parts (largely Lynch directed) of the original series stack up, but a majority of the original doesn't hold a candle in my mind to any of The Return. I was only once disappointed in the return. I don't remember which hour, somewhere between 11 and 14 I had a moment of "hmmm, not great". I was blown away by The Return and am grateful beyond words that it happened.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Novalis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:16 am

If I were to use a particularly convoluted series of metaphors to typify how I feel, these would be:

The original series is an exquisitely carved and detailed wooden owl, lovingly varnished in varying tones of the forest, that has pride of place on a shelf.

The new series is a steel cube containing a holographic projection of an owl in flight that moves and multiplies as you change position. Maybe it will join its forebear on the shelf one day but for now I've not finished playing with it.

FWWM is a dawn journey on the back of an owl into a cave hidden behind a waterfall and a descent into an underground twilit world.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Mb3 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:25 am

I love both the original and the new series but if I had to choose between the two than I'd prefer The Return. And FWWM is one of my all-time favorite movies.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Trudy Chelgren » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:04 pm

Novalis wrote:
If I were to use a particularly convoluted series of metaphors to typify how I feel, these would be:

The original series is an exquisitely carved and detailed wooden owl, lovingly varnished in varying tones of the forest, that has pride of place on a shelf.

The new series is a steel cube containing a holographic projection of an owl in flight that moves and multiplies as you change position. Maybe it will join its forebear on the shelf one day but for now I've not finished playing with it.

FWWM is a dawn journey on the back of an owl into a cave hidden behind a waterfall and a descent into an underground twilit world.


That's amazingly accurate! I really identify with the varnish/steel idea. Both can move me in different ways.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Snailhead » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:27 pm

Nope. Though it's markedly better than Eps 17-28 of the original, for the most part. I'm glad it was made and it's been a fun ride, but at the moment I'm left feeling like it was ultimately a missed opportunity and I don't feel compelled to revisit it any time soon. Time will tell!
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby douglasb » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:59 pm

"He's always been cool" made me well up, as did a couple of other scenes but I can't use that as any kind of barometer. The line about James was a response to the fact that we were here, again after so many years. How wonderful! Little did I know at that point where we were actually going. Other times I was moved, there was actually a hint of grief I think. Cooper waking up was a reminder how poor much of TR had been.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Mystery Roach » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:54 am

I'll say this about the original series. I think the drop in quality, particularly the duration of it, is often overestimated. In my opinion it takes a sharp downturn in episode 2.10, but it starts improving at 2.16 (despite drunk Harry in 2.17), and by 2.18 I think it's firing on all cylinders again. Incidentally that's also the exact duration of Cooper's suspension from the FBI. So that's really just 6-8 episodes that are a bit dull and weird, and even those I think are mostly more mediocre than bad, with some good moments peppered throughout as well. The only storyline I completely dislike is Evelyn Marsh, and that's something I just had to learn to tolerate.

Also I'll be interested to see what kind of resonance the Major Briggs story in that section has now after TR and TSHOTP.
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:03 am

Mystery Roach wrote:The only storyline I completely dislike is Evelyn Marsh, and that's something I just had to learn to tolerate.

An interesting thing happened to me regarding that storyline. After having played a psychological horror video game titled "Silent Hill 2", the Evelyn Marsh sequences became very cool and artistic:

The game featured intentionally stilted performances, forlorn solo guitar work over sullen monologues, a vague but frequent dread, an identity-torn femme fatale, extremely unsettling implications beneath the surface of the minimalist narrative, and a ubiquitous dreamlike wonder that instilled both fear and tranquility.

Certain scenes very much reminded me of Twin Peaks, and upon rewatching the show, I couldn't help but gain a certain sense of charm from these Evelyn scenes that I really disliked the first time around.

Many years later, I learned that among the handful of influences inspiring the design team were David Lynch and Francis Bacon. This was a very interesting revelation. It made me see the Evelyn scenes in a whole new light, one of intentional badness, of nightmarish soap opera glamour that was designed to stupefy with its overbearing and empty lust shrouded in maudlin haze.

Kind of strange that an homage to the original was the key to seeing it in a new light.

"Demanding an explanation" with a reference to "doing it through the bars":
https://youtu.be/Rv3e8jMZds0?t=34s
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby Novalis » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:27 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:It made me see the Evelyn scenes in a whole new light, one of intentional badness, of nightmarish soap opera glamour that was designed to stupefy with its overbearing and empty lust shrouded in maudlin haze.


I'm happy to read this, because that's the way I processed those scenes too. If I'm honest maybe it is the only way I am able to accept them, and see them as part of the continuity. It's as if there's a low-frequency mental droning, groaning, sound going on in my head when I watch them, which I wish was part of the sound design in places so that it could better estrange the action. I'm sure we're not the only ones who have found our own ways of adapting these sequences.
As a matter of fact, 'Chalfont' was the name of the people that rented this space before. Two Chalfonts. Weird, huh?
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby referendum » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:32 am

Novalis wrote:
Mr. Strawberry wrote:It made me see the Evelyn scenes in a whole new light, one of intentional badness, of nightmarish soap opera glamour that was designed to stupefy with its overbearing and empty lust shrouded in maudlin haze.

I'm sure we're not the only ones who have found our own ways of adapting these sequences.


me, i just thought they were a stupid piss-take, like the michael cera am-dram malarkey, which was mercifully restricted to one scene. A bit of business, as they say in the theatre. Give the cast abit of rope, see if they hang themselves ( they did). The brother was the worst. It was a terrible idea 25 years ago and remains one now. :)
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Re: So is there anyone else who prefers The Return to the original?

Postby David Locke » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:18 am

Honestly, I find the Evelyn Marsh scenes at least more watchable than Ben's Civil War stuff, Little Nicky, or Lana "bewitching" every man in town (while generic "romantic" flute music plays, of course). Those three are at the bottom for me - the only plots with basically nothing I enjoy (though I guess Andy and Dick in the orphanage is kinda funny in a dumb way).

The Evelyn scenes at least have, sort of, a kind of mood or atmosphere (nice house) and it starts off promisingly enough (cool Lynch-shot/Pilot-era James footage, and the first scene in Wallie's ain't bad).

But by Keaton's episode I want out of that plotline... it's crazy how it feels like it's over but then that episode comes along and doubles down on the nonsense! And it gets even worse than before! Keaton using that kind of roar-like slowed-down effect that Lynch used so effectively in Blue Velvet is one of the more absurd creative choices of mid-S2.

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