Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

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vicksvapor77
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Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby vicksvapor77 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 am

Hi everyone! Just curious who thinks the original timeline/series/most of the return storyline is still intact and why? What are your theories? Can you explain why you feel it is still intact? I want very badly to believe the original timeline still happened and Laura's death still happened but I have some doubts.

I had posted my thoughts in the part 18 thread, which I'll copy and paste below and expand on in bold (having just rewatched the parts):

I noticed some very interesting editing choices for the end of parts 17 and 18. In Part 17, we see Cooper trying to change the past with Laura, then we see Sarah freaking out and trying to destroy her photo and then we see Laura disappear from Cooper's grasp and scream with Julee Cruise's song playing over the end credits.

Part 18 opens with the new Dougie tulpa being created and reuniting with Janey-E and Sonny Jim. We then have what I believe to be simple rollback (soaps do this to sort of "recap" the last scene of the previous episode when starting the next episode) to the moment from the end of 17 with Cooper losing Laura in the woods and then he goes into the Red Room.

Some have speculated that they think Cooper loses Laura twice but I think it's just simple rollback of footage (it's definitely not an alternate take). I think it's to show the multiple events happening at once in the timeline, like Sarah smashing the picture and Dougie's reunion with his family (which is daytime, so perhaps earlier that day?), happen BEFORE Cooper loses Laura in the woods.

Now, we don't conclusively see our normal timeline ever again after this moment, which is what makes me very afraid that our current timeline where Laura dies was erased. What do you guys think about this? For those that absolutely don't think the original timeline of her dying was erased, how do you reconcile the conscious editing choice to not show "our timeline" again after Cooper loses Laura in the woods? I would definitely agree that moment and the ensuing ones in the Red Room seem to indicate he failed in saving her from her original murder but then what? We don't see our timeline "revert to normal" again, with her body showing up back on the shore or showing her meeting Ronette, Leo and Jacques so it's definitely suspicious.

Certainly if she just fails to exist in that timeline from that moment (she literally disappears from the woods) things in that timeline would be altered for everyone? Clearly her soul can be displaced elsewhere, as she was already in the Red Room after her death. We also see her whispering to Cooper again after this and disappearing out of the Red Room again. If her soul is displaced to the other timeline as Carrie, what happens to her body/soul that were inside of Laura Palmer in the original timeline? Does hear disappearing from the woods at the moment she does indicate a reset, which Cooper is then pulled out of? Or does it indicate that's when the split in the timeline occurred? Or perhaps even earlier when Cooper begins to lead her away? None of this quite reconciles us never seeing "our timeline" again after that moment or that she literally disappears from Cooper's grasp, which is obviously different than the original timeline.

Some have said they believe Cooper comes out of the Red Room in the new timeline. Some have said it isn't created/crossed into until we see Cooper and Diane cross the 430 threshold. What are your thoughts on this and how it ties into the original timeline still being intact?
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby DamnFineCreamedCorn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:03 pm

Jeffries tells Cooper "Say hi to Gordon if you see him. He'll remember the unofficial version." IMO that's internal evidence that Cooper's mission in Part 18 doesn't destroy anything, but removes him from the original timeline, as Jeffries had been, and deposits him in an alternate version.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:15 pm

Yes. We have three to four different timelines. Timeline A has everything we saw and it really ends with Dougie walking through the door. Timeline B is now Where is Laura Palmer where Ronnetta is probably murdered instead of Laura. Dale still shows up as does Mattie whose death will eventually lead to Dale figuring out Leland is Bob. The big thing is we don't have the funeral scene and James' innocence may not be cleared up that easy. I believe that Dale will not have to deal with the Lode situation though due to Bob probably actually being destroyed when Leland dies. Not sure why I think that, but I just think in that world the Lodges are not that big of a deal. Honestly, Timeline B is sorta like the JJ Star Trek universe, your annoyance may vary on that.

Then we have Timeline C. Now, I have heard that this timeline is actually a trap for Judy, but I am not sure. I think its the real world in which we exist in just with Dale, Diane, Laura and possibly the entire Black Lodge there. Regardless if Laura is a bomb or not, I think this is a case of fictional characters being in the real world. I just don't believe The White Lodge or Black Lodge can create entire worlds. Then all of this pointless since they can create worlds where they win all the time.

There is Timeline D which I call the hub. This is where the timelines converge, but you always return to your timeline and you only see people from your timeline. James doesn't see Renee at the bar, its really Donna. Audrey can go to this timeline, but she doesn't see James' face. If she does then maybe she is able to leave. I think Audrey is stuck between all these timelines. She is probably in timeline A, but I am not sure.

While people think Dale changed the past, he really just created another timeline. While I get the whole past changes future thing, I do not believe Dale going back to save Laura will create world where no one has the same name. That doesn't seem right.
vicksvapor77
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby vicksvapor77 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:42 pm

DamnFineCreamedCorn wrote:Jeffries tells Cooper "Say hi to Gordon if you see him. He'll remember the unofficial version." IMO that's internal evidence that Cooper's mission in Part 18 doesn't destroy anything, but removes him from the original timeline, as Jeffries had been, and deposits him in an alternate version.


So to you, what is the "unofficial version"?
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby BloodyHeartland » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:27 pm

My reconciliation is a bit boring as I find the dream theory to hold more weight than trying to apply cold, hard logic to a lot of these events.

Even so, it's hard for me to think of exactly how the timeline would split because we are at a loss to what actually happens to Laura, whether she is killed or pulled into another timeline somehow, etc. Perhaps it is possible she has a new identity and different memories, but that doesn't really explain why Cooper and Diane are suddenly Richard and Linda, or the change of hotel overnight, or why someone else has owned the Palmer house for a long time, I suppose unless they are in a farther past or future.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby Ashok » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:36 pm

vicksvapor77 wrote: For those that absolutely don't think the original timeline of her dying was erased, how do you reconcile the conscious editing choice to not show "our timeline" again after Cooper loses Laura in the woods?


I don't see any evidence in Part 18 that would suggest the original timeline doesn't exist. It's true we don't see the original timeline again but as the audience we are viewing the world strictly from Agent Cooper's perspective. When Cooper saved Laura, he immediately generates a new timeline B. When Coop returns to the future, things get a bit sketchy as to what has and hasn't "changed". But Laura was clearly "displaced" elsewhere, hence Cooper ventures 430 miles into the world of Richard/Linda. Perhaps Cooper has returned to Timeline A and must drive into Timeline B. Or Cooper has returned to Timeline B and Richard/Linda-verse is a "pocket" world that exists within Timeline B or is yet another new Timeline C. I think we'd need a Season 4 make any further accurate conclusions. As far as Laura's soul is concerned, I think the various timelines are somewhat inconsequtial as the Lodges seem to exist outside of time.

Also, I think it's critical to note that characters in the ORIGINAL timeline (where Laura is dead) seem to have knowledge of the alternate timeline where Laura wasn't killed. There was a huge Reddit post about the various utility poles that show up in FWWM + The Return. When Andy enters the White Lodge, the Fireman shows him the electrical pole that is outside of Carrie Page's house. Andy then unknowingly returns to the ORIGINAL TIMELINE with information about a world where Laura Palmer is alive. Based on how the story is written by David Lynch, it seems clear the Fireman wants Andy to have knowledge of the universe where Laura is translocated to. The Fireman would have no reason to do this if the original timeline was destined to collapse after Cooper generated Timeline B.

In summary, if we take everything from Part 18 at face value, my interpretation is that the Fireman exists outside of time. He gives Andy a vision of Timeline B or C (depending on how you interpret the Richard/Linda world) and then returns Andy safely to Timeline A to use this information at a later date. Cooper later ventures though the door at the Great Northern to create Timeline B and Laura is displaced. Cooper returns to the future (somewhere) and ventures into the Richard/Linda-verse to locate Carrie Page. Off camera, Cole is still waiting for Agent Cooper in the original timeline which is very much intact. And Andy --- one of the kindest people in Twin Peaks --- has answers from the Fireman to make sense of everything.
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lotjx2
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby lotjx2 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:51 pm

BloodyHeartland wrote:My reconciliation is a bit boring as I find the dream theory to hold more weight than trying to apply cold, hard logic to a lot of these events.

Even so, it's hard for me to think of exactly how the timeline would split because we are at a loss to what actually happens to Laura, whether she is killed or pulled into another timeline somehow, etc. Perhaps it is possible she has a new identity and different memories, but that doesn't really explain why Cooper and Diane are suddenly Richard and Linda, or the change of hotel overnight, or why someone else has owned the Palmer house for a long time, I suppose unless they are in a farther past or future.


When you go back in time and change something you inevitably change the timeline. Marty does not go back to his timeline he goes back to the new timelines. In his old timeline, he has gone missing and Doc Brown is dead. Dale did time travel, but in doing so created a bunch of alternate realities. The Richard and Linda thing is another timeline where they are in our reality and that is the name David Lynch choose for them, because he is the dreamer and this his world plus he is telling the homeowner what to say.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby IcedOver » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:33 pm

It's useless to go too far into it with fan fiction theories because to me, shoehorning in reality manipulation, something that didn't grow organically out of anything in this or the original series, was pure folly. However, the only thing that makes me hope he failed was Laura screaming, followed by "The World Spins", potentially signifying that "it is happening again" . . . again.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:46 pm

The original timeline is toast.

Cooper never came to investigate Laura's death.

He never met Audrey. He never met Annie.

That's why his love interest is now Diane/Linda.

The only things that wouldn't change would be things unaffected by Laura's death. Estimating all those threads is impossible.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby sylvia_north » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:51 pm

Sure everything still happened, why not?

Jeffries, OAM or Jumping Man could have tricked Cooper into entering same timeline, but in another multiverse, knowing what he was trying to do and thwarting him. OR because the entities as Milford explains in SH aren't good or evil in our terms so we can't understand their intentions, they thwart him to torment him.

Also, TR is "black corn" Twin Peaks, not the original bubble universe at all, but one similar enough to deceive. This universe could have come into existence when original Cooper (C1) as we knew him was annihilated on entering the lodge- and with it the universe of original Twin Peaks. Maybe black corn Twin Peaks is Freddie's dream. Cooper could never just fly back to Twin Peaks from Vegas- the same place doesn't exist except in his (our) memory, but it did exist.

Like Betty and Rita with the blue box and key, Betty IS Diane, and they are both "real" and we're all the dreamer in our own unstable universe, which we can wake up out of at any time, liberated from the illusions and darkness and pain of one existence, into the illusions of another. In Theosophy/Hinduism, the soul (of seven souls) travels up and down like this through (seven) realms/bardos on its way to perfection.

The Lodge thwarted Coop's MO by sending him to the same place but different, or this is just the progress of his soul.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby Cipher » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:21 am

My personal jury is out on this. Certain things, like Cooper taking care to provide Janey-E and Sonny Jim with another tulpa, lead me to think the original timeline remains. Others, like Jeffries' "Gordon will remember the unofficial version" lead me to think it's been overwritten. (And, of course, Cooper could simply be taking precautions.)

I'm not sure it matters either way to the story they wanted to tell. Unlike many, apparently, I'm not much bothered by not knowing.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby referendum » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:47 am

The original timeline is toast.

Cooper never came to investigate Laura's death.

He never met Audrey. He never met Annie.


i genuinely don't understand how anyone can draw this conclusion. The story from 25 years ago is unaffected.
What we have here is a different story told alot later from a different perspective. Where it diverges, it like a different version of the same events, alot of the ending is seen through Cooper's eyes, some parts are wish-fulfilment, some parts are dreams, some parts supposedly in ' our world' ( or rather a version of it where he self identifies with Dale Cooper from the fictional TP world). So i would not say that this hall of mirrors affects the integrity of the original timeline atall. Some events happen in parallel or as alternative versions, in relation to the original .Variations on a theme. The two ( original timeline and TP TR) may relate but they don't affect each other. Not a single thing about S1/2 changes - or for that matter, about Lost Highway or Mulholland Drive. The wild ones doesn't suddenly change, either, just because Michael Cera did his pastiche. Different films. One can't become less true because of the other one.
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vicksvapor77
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby vicksvapor77 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:52 am

Cipher wrote:My personal jury is out on this. Certain things, like Cooper taking care to provide Janey-E and Sonny Jim with another tulpa, lead me to think the original timeline remains. Others, like Jeffries' "Gordon will remember the unofficial version" lead me to think it's been overwritten. (And, of course, Cooper could simply be taking precautions.)

I'm not sure it matters either way to the story they wanted to tell. Unlike many, apparently, I'm not much bothered by not knowing.


I can't remember, what is the reference to the "unofficial version"? Another poster mentioned it a few comments up.

I appreciate all the thoughts and comments in this thread so far!
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby Wonderful & Strange » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:27 pm

There are real consequences to Cooper saving Laura. That's why the original timeline is toast.

OT: Cooper goes to Twin Peaks because Laura is murdered.

New Timeline: Laura is not murdered. Instead, she disappears. People disappear all the time, and there's no need for Cooper to come to Twin Peaks.

Consequences: Audrey and Annie and many other town folk never meet Cooper. This is good because it means Mr. C is never created and never hurts them. When we see Audrey finally wake up in part 16, it may be because Cooper has changed the timeline. The bad consequences is that BOB should still be alive and in Leland. This opens the door for more Leland in S4.

Possible Consequences: Cooper himself may forget some of these people in time, especially with his entering pocket universes where his own identity begins to shift.

Some characters, like Cole and Cooper, will remember the old timeline before it changed. That's why Jeffries called the original timeline the "unofficial version."

I think a S4 will be about Richard and Carrie Page trying to rediscover their original selves in Twin Peaks. Richard is a blend of Dale and Mr. C. Carrie will be dealing with her traumas resurfacing. And BOB and Judy are probably still around waiting to get some revenge.
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Re: Calling all who think the original timeline is still intact

Postby referendum » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:15 pm

@wonderful and strange
There are real consequences to Cooper saving Laura. That's why the original timeline is toast.


ok, please explain: why do you think there is only one definitive explanation, that Laura was 'saved'?

I can think of several interpretations of what I saw, one of which is that the re-run scene of the original TP without Laura's body, where Pete gets to go fishing on a normal day, is wish-fulfilment, a fantasy or a waking dream - what Cooper wanted to happen. There is no unambiguous indication that it actually happened, or that the original time-line has been changed. There are several things that strongly suggest it hasn't, and that it can't. For instance: When Cooper looks back in the forest, and Laura disappears ( same scene in ep 17 and 18 ), surely one possible interpretation is that: there is no going back, and he can't save Laura, how ever many times he tries, what happened happened, and you can't change it. That was also ( partly) how i took the last scene with the disembodied voice saying '' laura'' and then the scream and then the whispering in the red room. The possibility ( ep 18) that there are two time-lines, or more than one reality, also suggests that the original series time-line remains unchanged.

So that is my ( approximate and partial) understanding of those last two episodes ( with a certain amount of wobble room for other possible readings that make sense ) and why i don't understand why you are saying definitively that the original timeline is toast. We both watched the same programme but seem to have understood the exact opposite. So, er...help me out. Can you explain why you think Cooper saved Laura? I don't get it. Thanks.
Last edited by referendum on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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