An apologia for Sarah

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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:56 pm

Framed_Angel wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:What is BTW? Sorry I see others recognize it but I'm out of that loop. "Between Two WOrlds"? a documentary maybe?


Yep, Between Two Worlds! It's a feature on the Entire Mystery Blu Ray. DKL interviews each member of the Palmer family in character on their lives since the end of the original show, then more informally chats with the actors out of character. It's phenomenal, especially Sarah's, and perhaps helps bridge the gap very slightly to her S3 storyline (in an ambiguous way).
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby douglasb » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:54 pm

I suppose asking why Sarah hasn't been arrested for killing a guy is just me not accepting S3's radical re-writing the rules of narrative. Then she could be in the cells when BadCoop came to town and, well, imagine the theories!
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N. Needleman
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby N. Needleman » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:14 am

douglasb wrote:I suppose asking why Sarah hasn't been arrested for killing a guy is just me not accepting S3's radical re-writing the rules of narrative. Then she could be in the cells when BadCoop came to town and, well, imagine the theories!


No one saw her kill the guy.
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby mtwentz » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:07 am

N. Needleman wrote:I think what's going on with Sarah is pretty straightforward, myself - she is the host for Judy. Eye of the beholder, etc.


Possibly but I feel since FWWM that this idea of 'inhabiting spirits' has not been emphasized very much at all (at least in the sense that the 'host' is the innocent victim).
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby claaa7 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:54 pm

mtwentz wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:I think what's going on with Sarah is pretty straightforward, myself - she is the host for Judy. Eye of the beholder, etc.


Possibly but I feel since FWWM that this idea of 'inhabiting spirits' has not been emphasized very much at all (at least in the sense that the 'host' is the innocent victim).


I think the trucker/bartender scene made it clear she wasnt an innocent victim who didnt know what she had done
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby writersblock » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:50 am

Personally my theory is that Sarah, after the death of Laura and Maddie, and finding out that her husband was the perpetrator of these acts (even if he was under the influence of Bob), left her with absolutely nothing. She became reclusive and found solace in alcohol and cigarettes and not much else.

And she let the darkness in to numb her - kind of like what Leland described when he let Bob inside him.

I don't think she is particularly conscious of it. She's mostly just numbed Sarah - probably thinking the alcohol is doing it's job. But there is something inside her - that comes out from time to time.

We see it in the bar and we see it lashing out at the picture of Laura. Whether that is the catalyst that takes Laura from Cooper at the end of Episode 17 - I don't know, however.

That's my take
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Mace
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby Mace » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:25 am

I was hoping to see Sarah get a visit from Beth. But upon second thought Beth may still be struggling with the anger and grief related to Madeline's death at the hands of Uncle Leland. I'm sure there were some hard feelings between Sarah and Beth to say the least.
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby PandemoniumSeesaw » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:09 am

writersblock wrote:Personally my theory is that Sarah, after the death of Laura and Maddie, and finding out that her husband was the perpetrator of these acts (even if he was under the influence of Bob), left her with absolutely nothing. She became reclusive and found solace in alcohol and cigarettes and not much else.

And she let the darkness in to numb her - kind of like what Leland described when he let Bob inside him.

I don't think she is particularly conscious of it. She's mostly just numbed Sarah - probably thinking the alcohol is doing it's job. But there is something inside her - that comes out from time to time.

We see it in the bar and we see it lashing out at the picture of Laura. Whether that is the catalyst that takes Laura from Cooper at the end of Episode 17 - I don't know, however.

That's my take


I fully agree on your take on Sarah, but I do not think her trying to smash Laura's picture is the cause of Laura disappearing from Cooper. I believe that Laura disappears from Cooper because "the past dictates the future", hence if Laura doesn't meet her fate that night then Cooper never goes to Twin Peaks, then Laura is never in the lodge, then Cooper never can save her (notice how Laura's scream that we hear when she disappears is the same we hear when she is sucked out of the lodge, I believe those two events happen at the same time).
I actually think that Sarah smashing Laura's picture is very related to Cooper trying to rescue Laura: she wants to remove her painful memories but they cannot be removed, as Cooper wants to undo her being killed but that is not possible as well.
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby ThumbsUp » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:34 am

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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby Snailhead » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:18 pm

(Cross posted from part 1/2 thread)

Upon reflection, I have some thoughts about Part 1 and 2, with regards to Judy and Sarah.

Does anyone else think that the scene with Sarah watching the violent nature program is the moment when she gets possessed by Judy ? Right before it cuts to the Roadhouse, she raises her eyes very suddenly, as though something just happened to her.
Maybe when Judy appears in the box and kills the lovers, that's when she was set free into the world, and she is immediately drawn to the Palmer house?
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby LateReg » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:18 am

PandemoniumSeesaw wrote:
writersblock wrote:Personally my theory is that Sarah, after the death of Laura and Maddie, and finding out that her husband was the perpetrator of these acts (even if he was under the influence of Bob), left her with absolutely nothing. She became reclusive and found solace in alcohol and cigarettes and not much else.

And she let the darkness in to numb her - kind of like what Leland described when he let Bob inside him.

I don't think she is particularly conscious of it. She's mostly just numbed Sarah - probably thinking the alcohol is doing it's job. But there is something inside her - that comes out from time to time.

We see it in the bar and we see it lashing out at the picture of Laura. Whether that is the catalyst that takes Laura from Cooper at the end of Episode 17 - I don't know, however.

That's my take


I fully agree on your take on Sarah, but I do not think her trying to smash Laura's picture is the cause of Laura disappearing from Cooper. I believe that Laura disappears from Cooper because "the past dictates the future", hence if Laura doesn't meet her fate that night then Cooper never goes to Twin Peaks, then Laura is never in the lodge, then Cooper never can save her (notice how Laura's scream that we hear when she disappears is the same we hear when she is sucked out of the lodge, I believe those two events happen at the same time).
I actually think that Sarah smashing Laura's picture is very related to Cooper trying to rescue Laura: she wants to remove her painful memories but they cannot be removed, as Cooper wants to undo her being killed but that is not possible as well.


This is one of the main paradoxes that drive me nuts. I think that's a very good theory, but if it is the case that Laura disappears from Cooper in 1989 at the same moment that she disappears from him in the Black Lodge (as you say, the scream is the same so it makes sense), and if we say that happens for the reasons you state (the past dictating the future) and that therefore Cooper would never come to investigate her murder, then how come Cooper doesn't also disappear from the lodge at that same moment? Can that be chalked up to the lodge not adhering to linear time? Did Cooper get there again eventually and therefore he remains?
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby Cappy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:03 pm

LateReg wrote:This is one of the main paradoxes that drive me nuts. I think that's a very good theory, but if it is the case that Laura disappears from Cooper in 1989 at the same moment that she disappears from him in the Black Lodge (as you say, the scream is the same so it makes sense), and if we say that happens for the reasons you state (the past dictating the future) and that therefore Cooper would never come to investigate her murder, then how come Cooper doesn't also disappear from the lodge at that same moment? Can that be chalked up to the lodge not adhering to linear time? Did Cooper get there again eventually and therefore he remains?


Yeah this baffles me a lot too. I think Laura disappearing from the Red Room exists concurrently with her disappearing from the woods w/ Cooper, but Cooper's exit from the Red Room in episode 2 doesn't really match up with his exit from the Red Room in episode 18. Laura also isn't around during his brief Red Room session in 18, but Coop stares at her chair to acknowledge her absence. Cooper is also able to leave without all the complications encountered during his escape in episode 2 (and 3). He uneventfully strolls through the red curtains back into Glastonberry Grove, where Diane awaits him. I'm starting to read this as a Diane who was never assaulted by Mr. C, and who was never imprisoned as Naido. Because if Laura was never murdered and sent to the Red Room, then Cooper couldn't have ever been trapped there either..? And if that is the case, he wouldn't have to exit the Red Room 25 years later. He might be meeting Diane in 1995, 2003, who knows. But if none of the events of the original series or The Return really happened, Coop and the other characters might be able to recall them as strange, vivid dreams.

Also: Frost's Secret History does mention that Cooper still comes to TP in 1989 to investigate her disappearance, and that he himself mysteriously disappears some time afterward.
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby LateReg » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:31 pm

Cappy wrote:
LateReg wrote:This is one of the main paradoxes that drive me nuts. I think that's a very good theory, but if it is the case that Laura disappears from Cooper in 1989 at the same moment that she disappears from him in the Black Lodge (as you say, the scream is the same so it makes sense), and if we say that happens for the reasons you state (the past dictating the future) and that therefore Cooper would never come to investigate her murder, then how come Cooper doesn't also disappear from the lodge at that same moment? Can that be chalked up to the lodge not adhering to linear time? Did Cooper get there again eventually and therefore he remains?


Yeah this baffles me a lot too. I think Laura disappearing from the Red Room exists concurrently with her disappearing from the woods w/ Cooper, but Cooper's exit from the Red Room in episode 2 doesn't really match up with his exit from the Red Room in episode 18. Laura also isn't around during his brief Red Room session in 18, but Coop stares at her chair to acknowledge her absence. Cooper is also able to leave without all the complications encountered during his escape in episode 2 (and 3). He uneventfully strolls through the red curtains back into Glastonberry Grove, where Diane awaits him. I'm starting to read this as a Diane who was never assaulted by Mr. C, and who was never imprisoned as Naido. Because if Laura was never murdered and sent to the Red Room, then Cooper couldn't have ever been trapped there either..? And if that is the case, he wouldn't have to exit the Red Room 25 years later. He might be meeting Diane in 1995, 2003, who knows. But if none of the events of the original series or The Return really happened, Coop and the other characters might be able to recall them as strange, vivid dreams.

Also: Frost's Secret History does mention that Cooper still comes to TP in 1989 to investigate her disappearance, and that he himself mysteriously disappears some time afterward.


Thinking about it and reading your words, I think I've got it, at least close enough, for it to make intuitive sense. Cooper still comes to investigate the disappearance, he still disappears due to his knowledge of Blue Rose and subsequent pursuits that lead him to the Sycamore Trees. Perhaps the lodge literally exists so far outside of time that once you're there - as Cooper is - you will always remember all those who pass through. So, he remembers Laura, thus acknowledging her chair. He remembers the way out, hence the lack of complications getting out in Part 18; this may be the Cooper who entered after Laura's disappearance (rather than her murder), so things are naturally different, but he retains knowledge of his previous exit. It must have something to do with his ending up in the lodge in both timelines, the lodge serving as a kind of all-retaining consciousness for those who have been there. Perhaps this is why Laura can remember everything at the very end, as she hears her mother's voice and then unleashes that scream.
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby Cappy » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:09 pm

I'm still wrestling with how to interpret Sarah from Season 3 to FWWM to the original series -- not sure whether she is a hapless victim, or an otherwordly antagonist, or a regular human complicit through her denial & enabling. But just recently I've started to view Sarah, at least in the context of S3, as sort of like the crying woman that bookends Inland Empire. Trapped in a room, waiting for someone or something to let her out. Granted, Sarah does leave her living room, but most of the time she is losing her mind in front of her TV. The crying woman in IE is released when Nikki (Laura Dern) arrives and kisses her, freeing her to rejoin her family.

Sarah, in contrast, has no family left, and likely feels guilty for allowing Leland to abuse Laura. One popular interpretation is that Cooper and Carrie Page travel to Sarah's home to somehow defeat the Judy entity that inhabits Sarah, but I feel like they are in fact on a mission to free Sarah from her guilt and pain. Sarah is in a prison of her own making, and she can't leave it without some outside force absolving her of guilt. Also, Sarah has been repressing knowledge of Leland's acts since before Laura's death. I am not an expert on the human mind, but I think people that hold dark secrets sometimes wish for their secrets to be exposed, so they can be freed from the burden of them. Sometimes they subconsciously act in a way allows their secrets to be found out. Sarah cannot admit the truth of her family on her own, so she requires an outside agent to force her to see it. Cooper and Carrie Page are these outside agents, and Laura's scream allows Sarah to see and acknowledge the pain she is complicit in causing. Maybe Sarah's guilt is not absolved in the end, but she is finally freed from the burden of denying her tragedy.
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: An apologia for Sarah

Postby chromereflectsimage » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:17 am

Just thought I would share this post I came across. What if Sarah/Judy isn't an 'evil' entity, but something more complex?

https://www.reddit.com/r/twinpeaks/comm ... ould_have/

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