Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

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Cappy
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Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Cappy » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:47 am

Recently rewatched episode 1 of The Return for the first time since the finale, and it occurred to me that Cooper's conversation with The Fireman might fit sort of easily between episodes 17 and 18. It lines up with some occurrences from 17 and 18:

- The sound Fireman urges Cooper to listen to is identical to the sound that plays just before Laura disappears from Cooper's grasp.
- Cooper loses Laura right at the gate of The Fireman's House, where their conversation takes place.
- The clues put forth in The Fireman's words come into play in episode 18 ("Richard and Linda", "430").

A linear approach to the Lodge/supernatural scenes in The Return might suggest that Cooper and Fireman's conversation could take place between 17 and 18. Cooper loses Laura, Cooper goes into The Fireman's House and converses with him, The Fireman sends him away to the Black Lodge and the events of episode 18. As we are shown this conversation at the very beginning of the series though, it does imply that it might be occurring outside of conventional linear time. Their conversation occurs more than once, possibly an endless amount of times throughout time. If their conversation is eternally re-occurring, then the same might be said of Cooper's scenes in the Black Lodge / Red Room. Cooper first dreams of meeting Laura Palmer when he is an old man in the original series, then in episode 2 of The Return he has a similar meeting with her in the same room 25 years later. This is revisited in episode 18, where he has a version of that meeting without Laura present. Events may be in eternal re-occurrence, but they can still change somehow.

It's also worth noting that Laura's scream when being ripped from Cooper in 17 is the same scream used when she is snatched out of the Lodge in 2. It's almost as if we are watching the same event repeat itself, albeit under different circumstances.

How have other people wrapped their head around The Fireman and Cooper's conversation that serves as an interlude to The Return as a whole?
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:55 am

On a related note: Is Fireman the same character as the Giant in the original series? It's the same actor, but are there any other reasons to assume they are the same?

In the original series, the Giant clearly says he is only allowed to give Cooper hints, and a limited amount of them. But the Fireman gives Cooper a navigation guide to another dimension, imbues a Brit with superpowers to beat up BOB, fills Andy in on the situation and gives brainbirth (or rebirth) to Laura after watching an episode of Twin Peaks is a celestial theater.

These are not the same character.
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Cappy
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Cappy » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 pm

Yeah I am inclined to think The Giant and The Fireman are different characters, possibly both of the same species of giant lodge spirits?

But given how little we saw of The Giant in the original series, I don't think it's so far fetched to think that The Fireman is just a more fleshed out version of The Giant. Kind of like how Sarah Palmer in The Return might be construed as a more developed version of her character's original premise and presentation.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:05 pm

Cappy wrote:Yeah I am inclined to think The Giant and The Fireman are different characters, possibly both of the same species of giant lodge spirits?

But given how little we saw of The Giant in the original series, I don't think it's so far fetched to think that The Fireman is just a more fleshed out version of The Giant. Kind of like how Sarah Palmer in The Return might be construed as a more developed version of her character's original premise and presentation.

See, this kind of stuff implicates that the original was worse, less complete, less cared about. I personally do feel quite the opposite.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Cappy » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:27 pm

Kilmoore wrote:
Cappy wrote:Yeah I am inclined to think The Giant and The Fireman are different characters, possibly both of the same species of giant lodge spirits?

But given how little we saw of The Giant in the original series, I don't think it's so far fetched to think that The Fireman is just a more fleshed out version of The Giant. Kind of like how Sarah Palmer in The Return might be construed as a more developed version of her character's original premise and presentation.

See, this kind of stuff implicates that the original was worse, less complete, less cared about. I personally do feel quite the opposite.


I think I can see your point there. Personally I don't feel like characters being developed or fleshed out in The Return diminishes the original series. If anything, it fills out and expands the established world for me. Characters like The Giant, Sarah Palmer, Major Briggs, and Gordon Cole were (relatively) minor in the original series, so they just weren't developed as much then (at least when compared to major characters like Donna Hayward and Harry Truman). But as they became central to the plot of The Return, they naturally became used and developed more. Conversely, major characters from the original like Ben Horne and Norma Jennings were not central to the plot of The Return, and thus weren't used or developed that much this time around.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby HoodedMatt » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:16 am

Kilmoore wrote:On a related note: Is Fireman the same character as the Giant in the original series? It's the same actor, but are there any other reasons to assume they are the same?

In the original series, the Giant clearly says he is only allowed to give Cooper hints, and a limited amount of them. But the Fireman gives Cooper a navigation guide to another dimension, imbues a Brit with superpowers to beat up BOB, fills Andy in on the situation and gives brainbirth (or rebirth) to Laura after watching an episode of Twin Peaks is a celestial theater.

These are not the same character.


They could still be the same person.

I think it's possible for The Fireman to have to borrow a host (or the image of a person from Cooper's memory) in some way in order to manifest to Cooper back in the original run, possibly because Young Cooper was not in tune enough with the Lodges at that point for him to be able to properly see/experience The Fireman. Young Cooper continues to see The Fireman in his Senor Droolcup outfit as the events of the original run all occur over a couple of weeks or so in the real world of the show.
Jump forward 25 real time years in show, and Cooper has spent all of that time within the Red Room and has been marinated in its juices, so to speak, so now The Fireman no longer needs to borrow a host or image and can appear as himself.

Assuming that this is the case, perhaps then that the very act of needing to go through the process of using a host or image somehow affects The Fireman's abilities. At full strength within his home, The Fireman is able to do and say as he pleases, but when he is projecting as a vision to a non-Lodge entity such as Young Cooper, he becomes limited and forced to resort to dropping hints or, as we see later on at the Road House, turning up briefly and giving a quick message or simply waving his hands as he does at the Miss Twin Peaks pageant.

Alternatively, he could have been a much less straightforward person 25 years ago and behaved exactly as he felt was appropriate, but after 25 of Cooper being trapped in the Lodge (and Senor Droolcup being long dead) perhaps he decided to be more direct and pro-active in order to help Cooper better? Clearly, given "Richard and Linda" and "430" being pretty much as clear as his earlier three clues, if not less so even, he didn't try hard enough if that is the case.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby claaa7 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:36 am

Kilmoore wrote:On a related note: Is Fireman the same character as the Giant in the original series? It's the same actor, but are there any other reasons to assume they are the same?

In the original series, the Giant clearly says he is only allowed to give Cooper hints, and a limited amount of them. But the Fireman gives Cooper a navigation guide to another dimension, imbues a Brit with superpowers to beat up BOB, fills Andy in on the situation and gives brainbirth (or rebirth) to Laura after watching an episode of Twin Peaks is a celestial theater.

These are not the same character.


on the same page, i wonder what was the point of keeping the Fireman's name a secret until very late into the game? perhaps this could be an indicator that we are indeed seeing a new character with the ?uestionmarks emphazising that we don't know this guy from before. Peter Deming called him Carl The Giant in that recent interview on the look of TR though.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Kilmoore » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:14 am

Kinda makes me wonder if The Fireman is a character from another story Lynch had developed over the years and decided to use now, and to make it look like a tie in to TP he cast Carel Struycken.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby LateReg » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:38 am

Cappy wrote:Recently rewatched episode 1 of The Return for the first time since the finale, and it occurred to me that Cooper's conversation with The Fireman might fit sort of easily between episodes 17 and 18. It lines up with some occurrences from 17 and 18:

- The sound Fireman urges Cooper to listen to is identical to the sound that plays just before Laura disappears from Cooper's grasp.
- Cooper loses Laura right at the gate of The Fireman's House, where their conversation takes place.
- The clues put forth in The Fireman's words come into play in episode 18 ("Richard and Linda", "430").

A linear approach to the Lodge/supernatural scenes in The Return might suggest that Cooper and Fireman's conversation could take place between 17 and 18. Cooper loses Laura, Cooper goes into The Fireman's House and converses with him, The Fireman sends him away to the Black Lodge and the events of episode 18. As we are shown this conversation at the very beginning of the series though, it does imply that it might be occurring outside of conventional linear time. Their conversation occurs more than once, possibly an endless amount of times throughout time. If their conversation is eternally re-occurring, then the same might be said of Cooper's scenes in the Black Lodge / Red Room. Cooper first dreams of meeting Laura Palmer when he is an old man in the original series, then in episode 2 of The Return he has a similar meeting with her in the same room 25 years later. This is revisited in episode 18, where he has a version of that meeting without Laura present. Events may be in eternal re-occurrence, but they can still change somehow.

It's also worth noting that Laura's scream when being ripped from Cooper in 17 is the same scream used when she is snatched out of the Lodge in 2. It's almost as if we are watching the same event repeat itself, albeit under different circumstances.

How have other people wrapped their head around The Fireman and Cooper's conversation that serves as an interlude to The Return as a whole?


In the opening scene of Part 1, which you're speaking about here, Cooper isn't wearing the FBI pin, correct? But when he rescues Laura in Part 17, he is wearing the pin. This is just from memory, so I could be wrong. But if true then it would mean the scene couldn't take place between Parts 17 and 18, though it seems highly logical that it would.
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Fred
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Fred » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:50 pm

I think it correct to say that Cooper's chat with the Fireman happens between ep 17 and 18. It makes sense in the narrative for it to happen here. Also, he is in the forest near the vortex entrance to the Fireman's palace.

The missing FBI pin is probably just a continuity error.

Fireman and Giant are probably the same person. Giant could just be a description of how tall he is, because he does not give out his name or job in season 2. His job is to put out the spiritual fire, ie, to try and stop evil fire spirits like Bob and Judy. So he's on the same side as Mike: the White Lodge is a group of spirits as well as a place.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby eyeboogers » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:21 am

Fred wrote:The missing FBI pin is probably just a continuity error..


I sincerely doubt that the first scene of the season - a scene all about clues and being alert, would have such a glaring continuity error in it.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby claaa7 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:09 am

eyeboogers wrote:
Fred wrote:The missing FBI pin is probably just a continuity error..


I sincerely doubt that the first scene of the season - a scene all about clues and being alert, would have such a glaring continuity error in it.


i agree. it seems that Lynch payed special attention to the pin when directing the series, it's in every scene (except the first) until he is sucked out into the huge electrical device and recreated in Rancho Rosa in ep. 3. likewise it is featured again in every scene from the boiler room in ep. 17.

i wonder if the scene always was written as the first scene in the script or if it initially was placed somewhere else. between 17 and 18 would make sense but the FBI lapel pin speaks against it imo.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Cappy » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:55 am

It's interesting to trace the path of the FBI pin on Cooper. He doesn't have it in the opening scene with The Fireman, does have it in episodes 2-3 while in the Black Lodge/Purple Room. He then doesn't have the pin again until he is in the Great Northern's basement with DIane and Gordon Cole.

Cooper wasn't wearing his pin during his Black Lodge appearances in FWWM. But in his initial Black Lodge dream in the original series, he has a different arrangement of pins of his suit altogether. When he initially entered the Lodge in ep. 29, he had the one pin.

What does the presence (or absence) of the FBI pin tell us about Agent Cooper and his character's arc? I don't know, but it does remind me of Log Lady's exchange with Maj. Briggs at the Double R in the original. "You wear shiny objects on your chest. Are you proud?" "An achievement is it's own reward. Pride obscures it."

Maybe the pin is symbolic of Cooper's worldly pride... He doesn't wear the pin as Dougie, and exists in a childlike intuitive state. Perhaps Cooper's pride (or some similarly negative emotional/mental attribute) is what gets in the way of his intuition. He doesn't have the pin after he wakes up from the electrocution, and remains pin-less through the big confrontation at the Sheriff's station. I wonder if when the super-imposed Cooper face proclaims that "we live inside a dream", Cooper 'wakes up' and regains his pride, as symbolized by this pin.

And I don't know if this is related, but does anyone else find it funny that even in the spirit world of The Black/White Lodge, spirits make a point to refer to Agent Cooper as an "agent"? I would just imagine that otherworldly entities would have little concern for worldly titles.
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby LateReg » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:56 am

I agree, the lack of a pin in the first scene is definitely NOT a continuity error.

On a similar note, does anyone know why Cooper wouldn't have the US Flag pin like Cole and Albert do? Is there a logical reason for that, or is it another clue?
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Re: Cooper's conversation with The Fireman in episode 1 (linear and non-linear approaches)

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:12 am

I rewatched Part 14 just now and noted that Coop is wearing the FBI pin in Gordon’s dream (when Gordon can’t see his face).

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