Two birds with one stone

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Exar Kun
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Two birds with one stone

Postby Exar Kun » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:52 pm

The two birds with one stone saying is believed to be originated from the story of Icarus and his father Daedelus. Daedelus was an architect and he builds the Labyrinth under orders from the King Minos. It was build to imprison the Minotaur/a half man half bull creature. The Labyrinth was a vast maze with so many false turns and dead ends that no one who entered it could ever find a way out. Daedalus wanted to leave when he finished his work however the King refused telling him he knows the secrets of the labyrinth and locked him and his son in a very tall tower. Deadelus was also an engineer and he was making escape plans and he carefully observed the birds and asked his son to catch some birds with stones to have their feathers. He finished making wings for both of them and when he sets to try them he tells his son if it works, they could practice, but his son was impatient. When he saw his father flying he was amazed. He looked in marvel and thought his father looked like a god. He couldn't wait any longer and took off from the edge of the tower. His father shouted him to come back, and after doing several turns he came back. His father told him they have to practice.

They practiced for days and when it was time to go he told Icarus he shouldn't fly too close to the water, because it will get wet and the wings will become too heavy. He also shouldn't fly too close to the sun because it will melt the wax that holds the wings together. He says he understands but he was barely listening. They then headed for the sea. His father was being cautious and reminding his son to be careful but Icarus wanted to fly higher, up to where the gods lived. He rose up and up and the warmth of the sun felt good to him. Eventually the sun burned his wings, and he dropped down in the water. His father went on looking for him and when he flew close to the sea he saw the feathers floating. He then knew his son was drowned. He cried as he flew alone. If only his son listened to him then they would be free together.
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chromereflectsimage
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby chromereflectsimage » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:46 pm

This is interesting. The closest I could come up with is Mr C letting Richard fry being a subversive version of this. Not sure what it means though. Thanks for posting.
Manwith
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Manwith » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:35 am

Exar Kun wrote:The two birds with one stone saying is believed to be originated from the story of Icarus and his father Daedelus.


I notice you didn't cite any source for this. A google search suggests this probably isn't true:

Many online “experts” believe the usage originated in the story of Daedalus and Icarus, who escaped from the Labyrinth on Crete by making wings and flying out, according to Greek mythology.

Daedalus supposedly got the feathers to make the wings by killing two birds with one stone. However, neither Ovid nor Appolodorus, the principal sources of the myth, say anything about how Daedalus got the feathers.

In the 1600s, when the expression arrived in English, one sense of the word “bird” was a game bird, especially a partridge, according to the OED. And one sense of the term “stone” (or “gunstone”) at that time was a bullet.


https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2013 ... -play.html
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Exar Kun
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Exar Kun » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:54 am

I didn't cite any source because it is believed to be so. Nobody is completely sure about the origin.

However since they are influenced by tales of Greek Mythology (resemblance to Orpheus and Odysseus, also the town Odessa etc.), I thought this completely fits. Cooper had advantages, he was gifted, he was saved, and he was very, very lucky. Could've moved on with his life. However it wasn't enough for him. He wanted more, he wanted to immerse himself in the vast mystery and incantation again. He wanted to firewalk basically. Remember how it fascinated him when it happened in season 1... he said the same exact words with MIKE. He is naively entranced by this magic. He wanted to delve deeper, solve the unsolvable, solve what is already solved, ventured too far, and unknowingly caused a catastrophe for both himself and Laura. This is feeling the ending left me with. Also considered how the Fireman speech in the beginning could also be after the ending, and sounds like reminding him of the failure he has done. These inspirations make the season 3 more interesting for me.
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Cappy
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Cappy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:55 am

Speaking of the classics and Richard Horne's fate... does anyone get an Oedipal Complex vibe from his situation?

Richard is (seemingly) destroyed by his father. The next time we meet "Richard" in episode 18, he looks just like his father, and identifies as Dale Cooper as well. Could this be Richard Horne's defense against his father's wrath -- to identify with his father so much that he quite literally becomes him? Granted I have a very flimsy understanding of this concept, and I hate to reduce everything to a sort of psychosexual Freudianism. But Dale in the finae acts very little like the Dale we knew... I don't think it's so far fetched that Dale "Richard" Cooper is just someone doing an awkward Dale Cooper impression.

If Richard Horne becomes Dale "Richard" Cooper in the final episode, then could the real Dale Cooper have been reborn back into Dougie Jones life? Richard copes with the situation by identifying with his father figure, while the father figure represses the conflict from his conscious mind, as displayed by Dougie-Coop's almost lobotomized demeanor.
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Saturn's child
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Saturn's child » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:39 am

Interesting post Cappy! & one of the few I've seen that gives a reason for (part 18) Richard's name, aside from ostensibly completing the 'Richard & Linda' prophecy. One of my original feelings was that Coop experienced another kind of (troubled) rebirth in part 18, & -- somehow connected to the recent demise of Richard Horne (his son) -- Coop is reborn into a Richard form, making it a literal rebirth, at least on an abstract level. (He was also reborn as a Dick, which has further Freudian potentialities!)

Having Richard as Dale via Oedipal identification kind of flips this around though, & I really love the idea. Oedipus also accidentally fulfils a prophecy, & also blinds himself (Naido?). Will keep it in mind on my next re-watch, see if anything else clicks.
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Saturn's child
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Saturn's child » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:14 am

I also feel Richard Horne functions as an expression of the negative side of Coop's psyche, possibly relating to his rape(s) that are presumably repressed in some form (what better form than a Horney Dick?)

It's almost like Coop's repressed destructive side is birthed/fathered into the character of Richard Horne, who is then allowed to run amok in the world as an independent character.
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Cappy
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Cappy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:19 pm

Saturn's child wrote:I also feel Richard Horne functions as an expression of the negative side of Coop's psyche, possibly relating to his rape(s) that are presumably repressed in some form (what better form than a Horney Dick?)

It's almost like Coop's repressed destructive side is birthed/fathered into the character of Richard Horne, who is then allowed to run amok in the world as an independent character.


Yeah my initial impression of Season 3 was that it was the story of Dale Cooper reconciling all of the different components of his psyche: hyper-rationalism (Mr. C), child like wonder (Dougie), self centered ego (RIchard), and emotional intuition (Diane). Maybe it's just me but I feel like the Diane that manifests in the police station (under Coop's superimposed face) is some sort of projection on Coop's part. Honestly I think the moment Coop vanquishes Mr. C he begins to reintegrate the various parts of his psyche and become a sort of composite Cooper.

But... sometimes I think that's the real Diane too. Ha.
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Cappy
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Cappy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:24 pm

Saturn's child wrote:Interesting post Cappy! & one of the few I've seen that gives a reason for (part 18) Richard's name, aside from ostensibly completing the 'Richard & Linda' prophecy. One of my original feelings was that Coop experienced another kind of (troubled) rebirth in part 18, & -- somehow connected to the recent demise of Richard Horne (his son) -- Coop is reborn into a Richard form, making it a literal rebirth, at least on an abstract level. (He was also reborn as a Dick, which has further Freudian potentialities!)

Having Richard as Dale via Oedipal identification kind of flips this around though, & I really love the idea. Oedipus also accidentally fulfils a prophecy, & also blinds himself (Naido?). Will keep it in mind on my next re-watch, see if anything else clicks.


Thanks! Yeah I've been re-watching some Season 3, and I've just found RIchard to be incredibly fascinating this time around. I guess during my initial viewing I was primarily just shocked at how evil he was... But it dawned on me that he might be a sort of anti-Laura Palmer. Both are offspring of BOB, both are (seemingly) killed by their fathers... Obviously their stories are very different though.

But wouldn't it be interesting if Richard somehow reconciled his awful nature and turned into Dale Cooper via Oedipal identification, then guided Laura Palmer to confront her mother for a similar effect..?
Rik Renault
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Rik Renault » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:44 am

Cappy wrote:But wouldn't it be interesting if Richard somehow reconciled his awful nature and turned into Dale Cooper via Oedipal identification, then guided Laura Palmer to confront her mother for a similar effect..?


I absolutely love this, Cappy!

For a while now I've been trying to shake this feeling that the two birds (BOB and Judy) would be killed with one stone (Laura, as the golden orb created by The Fireman and Senorita Dido), but I can't square the circle of Laura not really playing a part in BOB's destruction.

Agreed with those above that have questioned the spurious origin of the saying though.
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Xavi
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Xavi » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:01 am

Ever since I heard this two birds riddle and saw the hotel-room love scene between Kyle and Laura, uhh Dale and Diane, I could not get rid of the association with Blue Velvet, in which robins play such an important role. After this love-scene Dale and Diane are gone from the scenery, killed by one mile-stone at four three zero; a transformation set into motion by a kiss before dying, so to speak. When the twilight was gone, it was no more Diane and no more Dale, albeit Linda and Richard who re-unite "happily" ever after in a Judy's world, a mad mad world because they themselves ruined the fabrics of space-time.

Recently I saw a Behind The Scene fragment, where Lynch instructed Laura and Kyle, accidentally also referring to Blue Velvet. See what I mean?
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mtwentz
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:01 am

My initial impression was that killing two birds with one stone means 1) defeating/containing Judy and 2) saving Laura. So by saving Laura, Cooper also defeats Judy.

But it's completely open to interpretation, as the two birds are never revealed.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"
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Soolsma
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Soolsma » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:05 am

mtwentz wrote:My initial impression was that killing two birds with one stone means 1) defeating/containing Judy and 2) saving Laura. So by saving Laura, Cooper also defeats Judy.

But it's completely open to interpretation, as the two birds are never revealed.


I have thought this as well. But then again, it would seem weird for pre-lodge Cooper to have ever intended such a time traveling plan. To me it seems more likely only post-lodge Cooper (who is in many ways more aware of the universe's strange workings) would have had the intention of doing so.
Carrie Page: "It's a long way... In those days, I was too young to know any better."
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Cappy
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby Cappy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:43 am

Maybe this is a little off topic, but I was re-watching Season 1 the other day when I realized Cooper has a fear of birds. It comes up when the police have Waldo in their conference room, and Coop expresses extreme discomfort around him. Somehow that detail always went over my head. Not quite "I hate snakes", but it might make Coop's struggle against any sort of bird (or owl?) more interesting.
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mtwentz
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Re: Two birds with one stone

Postby mtwentz » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:55 pm

Soolsma wrote:
mtwentz wrote:My initial impression was that killing two birds with one stone means 1) defeating/containing Judy and 2) saving Laura. So by saving Laura, Cooper also defeats Judy.

But it's completely open to interpretation, as the two birds are never revealed.


I have thought this as well. But then again, it would seem weird for pre-lodge Cooper to have ever intended such a time traveling plan. To me it seems more likely only post-lodge Cooper (who is in many ways more aware of the universe's strange workings) would have had the intention of doing so.


This is where we get into the old Retcon issue. Now that we know Coop was part of Blue Rose and that he and Gordon and Briggs were working together, it's hard to know what Coop knew about the Lodge and what his plans were.
"Dougie is COOPER? How the Hell is this!?"

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