Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

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AgentEcho
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby AgentEcho » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:10 pm

It won't be fun to see Tom Sizemore on further rewatches of season 3. I guess

The tangent discussion of how we as viewers deal with the conflict between admiring the art and condemning the artist is interesting, definitely one I've been mulling over as we watch the bottom fall out on a long history of abuse by powerful men in the film/television industry. I know this may sound petty but it's almost a relief to hear news of someone like Brett Ratner so I can equally despite the art and the artist.

I somehow can't divorce myself from my appreciation of Roman Polanski's early work. That we know him to be a genuinely criminal creep somehow makes his performance as a creep in "The Tenant" more interesting. Yet I can't offer the same to Woody Allen in "Manhattan". I've only seen that film once or twice, and not in decades, and I remember it being a monumental artistic achievement in so many ways, but I can't overlook the creepy subplot, which I don't remember the film ever putting under much of an ethical lens. I don't know if I'll ever revisit Louie, but I imagine it will be hard to view certain scenes. There is definitely not a consistent cognitive association between art and the artists for me. There's multiple factors that determine it including how deep my appreciation is for the art and how much the art itself reflects the worst conduct of the artist.

I hope like hell nothing comes out about Lynch. I'm comforted that he seems to be almost universally adored by the actresses he's worked with.
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Deep Thought » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:38 pm

AgentEcho wrote:I hope like hell nothing comes out about Lynch. I'm comforted that he seems to be almost universally adored by the actresses he's worked with.


I do have to admit it is very interesting to live through a period in US history that I learned about in elementary school e.g. The Scarlet Letter. Serious allegations aside, am I a bad person for giggling at all the collateral burning of the butt-grabbers? Sew a "BG" on all of their sweaters!
"E.g." means "for example". What I think you want to say is "i.e.".
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:25 am

Deep Thought wrote:
AgentEcho wrote:I hope like hell nothing comes out about Lynch. I'm comforted that he seems to be almost universally adored by the actresses he's worked with.


I do have to admit it is very interesting to live through a period in US history that I learned about in elementary school e.g. The Scarlet Letter. Serious allegations aside, am I a bad person for giggling at all the collateral burning of the butt-grabbers? Sew a "BG" on all of their sweaters!


I wouldn't call you a “bad person” per se, but you seem to be either badly misunderstanding or mischaracterizing the issues. The allegations against most if not all of the accused men go beyond “butt-grabbing” (which, BTW, is criminal sexual assault pretty much everywhere and therefore “serious” in the grand scheme of things — certainly moreso than adultery, to which you seem to be equating it). These aren’t pathetic losers who groped someone in the subway or an elevator, which would be bad enough. These are powerful men who used their status within the industry to get away with sexual assault — in many cases, systematically — creating toxic work environments where women, both individually and collectively, felt unsafe, objectified, and unvalued throughout every workday. The fact that the behavior didn’t rise to the level of rape or felony charges doesn’t make it any less “serious” or any funnier.
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OrsonWelles
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby OrsonWelles » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:49 am

AgentEcho wrote:It won't be fun to see Tom Sizemore on further rewatches of season 3. I guess

The tangent discussion of how we as viewers deal with the conflict between admiring the art and condemning the artist is interesting, definitely one I've been mulling over as we watch the bottom fall out on a long history of abuse by powerful men in the film/television industry. I know this may sound petty but it's almost a relief to hear news of someone like Brett Ratner so I can equally despite the art and the artist.

I somehow can't divorce myself from my appreciation of Roman Polanski's early work. That we know him to be a genuinely criminal creep somehow makes his performance as a creep in "The Tenant" more interesting. Yet I can't offer the same to Woody Allen in "Manhattan". I've only seen that film once or twice, and not in decades, and I remember it being a monumental artistic achievement in so many ways, but I can't overlook the creepy subplot, which I don't remember the film ever putting under much of an ethical lens. I don't know if I'll ever revisit Louie, but I imagine it will be hard to view certain scenes. There is definitely not a consistent cognitive association between art and the artists for me. There's multiple factors that determine it including how deep my appreciation is for the art and how much the art itself reflects the worst conduct of the artist.

I hope like hell nothing comes out about Lynch. I'm comforted that he seems to be almost universally adored by the actresses he's worked with.


I have been thinking a lot about this in terms of OScar Wilde's essay Pen, Pencil & Poison. It's about a poet Thomas Griffiths Wainewright, who is also a poisoner and a forger. He did a lot of horrible stuff out of greed. On the one hand Wilde links Wainewrights deeds with his art:

His crimes seem to have had an important effect upon his art. They gave a strong personality to his style, a quality that his early work certainly lacked. One can fancy an intense personality being created out of sin

On the other hand he denounces the moral view of the contemporary art critic

There is no essential incongruity between crime and culture. We cannot re-write the whole of history for the purpose of gratifying our moral sense of what should be. Of course, he is far too close to our own time for us to be able to form any purely artistic judgment about him. It is impossible not to feel a strong prejudice against a man who might have poisoned Lord Tennyson, or Mr. Gladstone or the Master of Balliol. But had the man worn a costume and spoken a language different from our own, had he lived in Imperial Rome or at the time of the Italian Renaissance, or in Spain in the seventeenth century, or in any land or any century but this century and this land, we would be quite able to arrive a perfectly unprejudiced estimate of his position and value. I know there are many historians, or at least writers on historical subjects, who still think it necessary to apply moral judgments to history, and who distribute their praise or blame with the solemn complacency of a succesful schoolmaster. This, however, is a foolish habit, and merely shows that the moral instict can be brought to such a pitch of perfection that it will make its appearance whenever it is not required.

Of course, Wilde's ideas are to be seen in an aesthetic l'art pour l'art-tradition, but he is right. Even if a 1920's director would have had a questionable repuation, it wouldn't matter as much. Hell, we don't even have to go to the 20's, let's take Hitchcock as an example. But the fact it's here and now seems to cloud our judgements and makes it almost impossible to seperate art and personality/misdemeanour/sexual assault/crime/whatever. It's understandable, though. I'm not saying it can't change things, but it's not a priori a neccesity to denounce art because of the artist's behaviour or ideas, unless, perhaps, they explicitly enforce them upon the viewer.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:52 am

OrsonWelles wrote:Of course, Wilde's ideas are to be seen in an aesthetic l'art pour l'art-tradition, but he is right. Even if a 1920's director would have had a questionable repuation, it wouldn't matter as much. Hell, we don't even have to go to the 20's, let's take Hitchcock as an example. But the fact it's here and now seems to cloud our judgements and makes it almost impossible to seperate art and personality/misdemeanour/sexual assault/crime/whatever. It's understandable, though. I'm not saying it can't change things, but it's not a priori a neccesity to denounce art because of the artist's behaviour or ideas, unless, perhaps, they explicitly enforce them upon the viewer.


Not saying I disagree with you, but there is a flipside to this: while there is undeniably an inconsistency/hypocrisy in our cultural approach, perhaps we should err the opposite way. Should we be less forgiving to artists who lived in other eras? Maybe our memories are too short? We as a culture seem to be endlessly fascinated by artists’ private lives and in the way their personalities manifest in their work, until we learn something we don’t want to know, and immediately start building barriers (I’m as guilty of this as anyone). Is it wrong to enjoy the work of a terrible person, even if that work is brilliant, and even if that person died awhile ago? Does it become more wrong if the content of the work is closely linked to the creator’s misdeeds?

I have no answers, and I don’t think anyone does. But it’s all worth thinking about.
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Mb3
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Mb3 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:27 am

Another person who was a brilliant actor but a terrible person is Klaus Kinski.
Agent Earle
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Agent Earle » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:48 am

Mb3 wrote:Another person who was a brilliant actor but a terrible person is Klaus Kinski.


Can you elaborate a little? I'm very fond of Kinski as an actor but completely oblivious as to his character/personality traits, so I'm very curious!
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Mb3 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:57 am

I also love some of his films, especially the ones with Herzog. According to his oldest daughter Pola (in her autobiography) she accused Kinski of sexually abusing her since she was 5 years old.
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Agent Earle » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:31 pm

Oh... my... GOD.
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Mb3
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Mb3 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:15 pm

Agent Earle wrote:Oh... my... GOD.


Yeah, it's horrible.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:16 pm

I think a lot of the themes/scenes of abuse toward women, which many viewers on this forum found excessive and exploitative, feel a lot more powerful and relevant at this moment in history. While it is true that the repeated instances of abuse and violence don’t focus much on the women’s realities or perspectives, DKL has trod that ground elsewhere. It seems he and Frost were getting at something else here, and we can only guess at what it was. But in light of recent events and revelations, scenes like Richard sexually assaulting Charlotte in plain view while everyone dances, Steven beating Becky while everyone knows and looks away, and even Ruby being plopped between the feet of cheerfully oblivious bar patrons feel all the more horrifying as we learn that all of Hollywood stood by and let serial abusers do their thing because they were good for business.

In fact, as relieved as I was to learn from TFD that Bobby and Shelly will not have to deal with the murder of their daughter, I now almost wish that Becky had been killed, taking the theme to its logical conclusion: everyone looks away until it’s too late. The town of Twin Peaks has learned nothing from Laura’s death, and the hypocrisy and willful blindness continue. It would be especially heart-wrenching but thematically right for Bobby, who reminded the town that “we all” killed Laura in one of the most powerful moments from the original show, to lose his own daughter to similarly preventable familial abuse. (Bobby all but admits that he knows/suspects Steven beats Becky and doesn’t want to confront the reality, and only vows to do something if it happens “from now on.”) I wonder if the ambiguity surrounding Becky’s fate in the series stemmed from a fundamental disagreement between L/F about whether to go there. This is of course pure conjecture on my part...but, in retrospect, I’m mentally defaulting to the skin-crawling ambiguity of the series and ignoring TFD on this point. This is all especially ironic given that Frost himself is in the scene as Pons — declining to become directly involved and perhaps prevent Gersten’s murder, but at least speaking up and “reporting,” true to his profession, and unlike many others who fail to speak up at all. “Everybody loves Steven.”

All of what I’ve written above would probably be more appropriate in the “Gender” thread. But what I’m building to is...even before the recent allegations came out, Sizemore was a convicted domestic abuser. Why, of all actors, did DKL choose to cast him in this series? Was it an instance of DKL deeming him “forgiven,” his debt to society paid on the more-than-a-decade-old crime? (If so, this was clearly premature, as he was convicted of doing the same thing again just before S3 premiered.) Was it an instance of DKL being another Hollywood hypocrite, producing art that highlights and condemns the exploitation and abuse of women while collaborating with and paying a known creep? Is it possible that DKL was simply unaware of the conviction? (I actually never heard of it before it was mentioned on this board, and DKL doesn’t always seem like the most informed dude in terms of current events.) Or, possibly, was he trying to make some kind of a point with the casting? (This seems unlikely to me since the character, sleazy as he is, has no link to the domestic abuse going on elsewhere in the show. If we really want to stretch, we can speculate about the fact that DKL tears away Sinclair’s dominating bad-boy personality to reveal him as a sniveling, pathetic loser at his core — but I suspect this is giving the intuitive DKL too much credit.)

I have no answers. But this next rewatch upon the Blu Ray release is going to be a very complex experience.
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trismegistus
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby trismegistus » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:16 pm

Perhaps the greater point DKL would be making here is the same one he has with FWWM and Leland. Abusers tend to also be the abused and their behavior stems from a greater issue than just a personal experience. The point being that suffering itself is the cause of suffering and perhaps it would be easier to reverse that once we accept that it exists but not linger on its effects. To refuse to give up on your pain is the very thing that will allow it to find a home and fester...just ask Sarah Palmer.
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Deep Thought » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:30 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I wouldn't call you a “bad person” per se, but you seem to be either badly misunderstanding or mischaracterizing the issues.


Uh, no. I did say "serious allegations aside." Let's keep our perspective. As far as I know, I was the first one to bring up my discomfort with the Lynch/Polanski relationship on this board - long before the Weinstein allegations came to light.

Al Franken, George Takei, Ben Affleck, George HW Bush, Richard Dreyfus, etc, etc, etc. Anyone not having fun watching this play out is missing out on some first-rate schadenfreude. Our internet culture is something to behold.

Wrapping my head around the Jeffrey Tambor drama at the moment, pure gold!
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Esselgee » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:29 am

Also, now Robert Knepper (Rodney Mitchum) is up to 5 women accusing him of sexual harassment/assault.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/four-more-women-accuse-actor-robert-knepper-sexual-misconduct-1064277
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Deep Thought
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Re: Tom Sizemore accused of molesting 11yo

Postby Deep Thought » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:35 pm

Esselgee wrote:Also, now Robert Knepper (Rodney Mitchum) is up to 5 women accusing him of sexual harassment/assault.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/four-more-women-accuse-actor-robert-knepper-sexual-misconduct-1064277


It seems the incident from 2010 is straight up rape. Unfortunately cases that old are hard to prosecute. What a disturbing account!
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