Re: What Other Directors/Actors Think of Season 3
Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:22 am
Yeah, also The Last Jedi subverted a lot of expectations and alienated several fans.
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I don't see how TPS3 rather obvious and gleeful subversion of expectations is an empty buzzword (if that term implies that the concept is more a creation of people writing about these works rather than being something that exists within the work itself). The fan backlash is rather obviously generated from expectations not being met, whether intentional or not, and it's a rather tangible thing that is not springing up from emptiness.laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.
I meant that it's a word everyone is using (to broach a tangible topic, yeah) but which, by itself, is too vague by a mile and a half!AgentEcho wrote:I don't see how TPS3 rather obvious and gleeful subversion of expectations is an empty buzzword (if that term implies that the concept is more a creation of people writing about these works rather than being something that exists within the work itself). The fan backlash is rather obviously generated from expectations not being met, whether intentional or not, and it's a rather tangible thing that is not springing up from emptiness.laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.
Good point, however we do have the luxury of the exact same thing happening when Lucas went back to the well himself for episode 1-3. Fans tried to claim ownership when what Lucas came up with didn't live up to what they'd expected or wanted. Personally I think those three films are unwatchable, but Lucas did succeed in creating something with as big an impact on how (blockbuster) films are made as he did with his original films. The omnipresent bad CGI, overlong runtimes, passing the tourch from one generation of actors to fresh faces, the neverending storyworlds with built in story-gaps that allow things such as spin-off films. This is all him. What the Marvel Cinematic Universe claims they've created is actually just them doing Lucas. Film would be better off without many of these things, but still he did push the medium into a new direction, and sometimes attempting that can even justify a film as horrid as "The Phantom Menace".AgentEcho wrote:The fan backlash phenomenon we've seen so much of this year is interesting. Though I think it's worth noting that in the case of The Last Jedi, it wasn't made by the original creator and it was the case of an artist inheriting fan expectations rather than having created them himself. Still the overall phenomenon is the same, modern fans have a sense of entitlement about their individual expectations and they rage when they are not met and refuse to engage with the works on its own terms. Overall I am happier to see filmmakers intentionally subverting expectations rather than being beholden to them.
I'd agree the discussion warrants detail, but I think there has been plenty of detailed discussion with regards to TPS3 at least. I also find the way fans are approaching these works, asserting that anything that doesn't meet their specific individual expectations is worthy of criticism, to be a fundamentally flawed approach (not just to criticism, but to life), so in that broad sense I'd say any form of rebuke or subversion is good.laughingpinecone wrote:I meant that it's a word everyone is using (to broach a tangible topic, yeah) but which, by itself, is too vague by a mile and a half!AgentEcho wrote:I don't see how TPS3 rather obvious and gleeful subversion of expectations is an empty buzzword (if that term implies that the concept is more a creation of people writing about these works rather than being something that exists within the work itself). The fan backlash is rather obviously generated from expectations not being met, whether intentional or not, and it's a rather tangible thing that is not springing up from emptiness.laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.
It's which expectations you subvert, why, aligning with which themes, where your fanbase's at, and most importantly how you subvert... the discussion needs to be more detailed, just screeching in support or against the thing itself doesn't say much.
That was a different situation, though. We’re discussing franchises deliberately subverting established elements of the franchise (such as Dale Cooper or Luke Skywalker’s characterizations up to that point) for artistic reasons — essentially baiting fans’ expectations in order to make an emotional or philosophical point. The Star Wars prequels weren’t really about subverting expectations — if anything, one of my biggest complaints is that the prequels delivered on expectations far too literally, spending 6+ hours telling a story we already knew the ending of (and could guess the basic story beats of based on conventional narrative expectation) with almost no imagination or innovation. A couple of Lucas’s choices were a bit unconventional and, while arguably misguided, at least interesting (the focus on socioeconomics and parliamentary process, midichlorians)...so in those narrow aspects of the prequels, I think you have a point. But by and large, the prequels were more focused on selling toys and telling a very predictable story than in doing anything innovative vis a vis expectations. Certainly, expectation was a big factor in fans’ reactions, but I don’t think it was a big consideration in the artistic vision of the films themselves.eyeboogers wrote:Good point, however we do have the luxury of the exact same thing happening when Lucas went back to the well himself for episode 1-3. Fans tried to claim ownership when what Lucas came up with didn't live up to what they'd expected or wanted.
Disagreeing with you, only in terms of your point about “never ending storyworlds” allowing spinoff films. I think what Marvel has done in terms of creating a mega-franchise made up of intertwining film series is unprecedented and fascinating, even if it often acts to the detriment of individual films. Lucas never had any intention of doing such a thing (other than a brief period in the early ‘80s when he toyed with the idea of Wookie and droid spinoff films); while stuff like the animated Clone Wars TV series and movie and the Holiday Special exist, he had pretty consistently said that the feature film Star Wars universe, in his mind, would only be made up of the numbered “Episodes” telling the core story. Film spinoffs have popped up sporadically throughout the history of the industry, but Marvel truly revolutionized the landscape in this regard, for better or worse.Personally I think those three films are unwatchable, but Lucas did succeed in creating something with as big an impact on how (blockbuster) films are made as he did with his original films. The omnipresent bad CGI, overlong runtimes, passing the tourch from one generation of actors to fresh faces, the neverending storyworlds with built in story-gaps that allow things such as spin-off films. This is all him. What the Marvel Cinematic Universe claims they've created is actually just them doing Lucas. Film would be better off without many of these things, but still he did push the medium into a new direction, and sometimes attempting that can even justify a film as horrid as "The Phantom Menace".
That doesn't mean subversion is a buzzword. It means, if I'm understanding correctly, that you liked TP but you didn't like TLJ - which is your prerogative, but that doesn't mean the parallel does not hold.laughingpinecone wrote:The whole tlj discourse is interesting, and to me it further proves that "subverting expectations", per se, is little more than an empty buzzword. Fandom talk is indeed very similar to TPTR fandom talk, yet I find myself on the opposite side of the fence.