Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

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Isis Unveiled
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Isis Unveiled » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:16 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:Of potential interest to those who are into the Theosophy elements of the show: traditionally, Mark is most associated with those elements of TP, and I’ve been vocally skeptical that Lynch has any interest in them. However, in the category of eating my hat (or at least a small piece of it), Lynch references Blavatsky on the audiobook version of Room to Dream (specifically, he notes that she had a word for the smallest possible amount of time). He also amusingly has difficulty pronouncing “Theosophy,” and then gives up, so I still get the sense that he is very much a tourist in this stuff. But it seems he has at least some experience/knowledge of the texts.


The smallest possible unit of time was called a chronon, I thought? And that was a Tibetan term, I believe Buddha used it and said that the smallest unit of time could not be understood by man.

All the things Lynch says about Theosophy sound like something he heard second hand from Frost, just saying.

I’m sure Lynch knows about Blavatsky, but I have a really hard time believing that he actually sat and read both volumes of Isis Unveiled. I mean, admittedly, he’s not a reader.
"I have the fury of my own momentum." - BOB
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bowisneski
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby bowisneski » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:58 am

While I thought the mythology expanded/introduced/explained in Season 3 fit right in with the original series and FWwM, some pieces here and there seemed like fairly large contradictions. I thought that one of the biggest contradictions came from us knowing that Glastonbury Grove has existed and been a portal for at least a couple hundred years, if not more, based on it being included on the Owl Cave petroglyph. We also know that people have been transported to/abducted by/visited the Waiting Room for hundreds of years from TSHoTP. However, that knowledge didn't exactly square with this Mark Frost quote regarding the significance of Part 8

“My advocacy for that part of the plot was that we needed an origin story for everything we’ve been working with on the series for 25 years,” says Frost. “I felt you can’t just hint endlessly at something just beyond your reach. Even if it’s at a mythological level, it needs to be, to a certain point, explicit. I felt very strongly that we needed a way to figure out how this darkness came along. And that’s where we went with it!”

My original assumption/way to reconcile this was just that the atomic blast tore open portals backwards and forwards in time and essentially caused all we see and the characters experience. But now I'm thinking that the bomb was what allowed Lodge spirits to travel to our world because, unless I'm misremembering, there is nothing about possession/Lodge spirits inhabiting our world pre-1945. In conjunction with Crowley and Parsons having to practice a ritual to bring something to our world implies that Lodge inhabitants needed help to cross over pre-bomb. The conclusion I've drawn from that is that humans have always had the ability to go to the Waiting Room/Lodges, but Lodge inhabitants were unable to come to our world without assistance until the nuclear detonation. Part 8 is not an origin story of human connection to the Lodge but the origin of the Lodge inhabitants we know being able to enter our world.

Maybe that's something that has been obvious and discussed, but it just occurred to me over the weekend.
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Mr. Strawberry
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:21 am

It's puzzling alright. For a moment there I began to wonder if the scene with the bomb was showing entities crossing over from one reality or timeline to another. This would allow both facts to remain true; The entities have been around for a very long time, and they also emerged into that particular timeline in conjunction with the explosion.

How would this fit into the big picture? I have no idea. It's just one of those feelings, the same way that Mr. C being sent to the Sheriff's Station felt very much as though he was being sent to another reality, rather than merely changing physical location. But again, I can't explain that or place it in a manner that makes it coherent, because it's just based on feelings and I've only seen the show once, so, am mostly confused and befuddled at this point.
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Cappy
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Cappy » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:13 pm

Maybe this is just me, but when I watched episode 8 my immediate impression was that it depicted BOB's birth. It didn't occur to me that he might already exist and was merely crossing over between worlds.

And my imagination filled in the blanks: the Woodsmen live on this world and worship evil, and offered up the nuclear bomb to their god(s) as sacrifice or tribute. And their god(s) rewarded their efforts by giving them BOB and a few other spirit world characters.
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bowisneski
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby bowisneski » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:34 am

I would agree with at least the first half of that. BOB and the frogmoth probably didn't exist before that, especially in light of this Frost quote
“The creature we saw being born and crawling into the mouth of that young girl is the origin of the evil we’ve been dealing with for 27 years,” said Frost. “All those images are described, but the way in which he brings them to life is rather sublime. It’s an extraordinary hour of television in which David really stepped it up to give this incredible gravitas that you can’t write.”

I know he doesn't specifically mention BOB there, but they came in to the world together. While that may have been their creation, we also know at least The Arm and Fireman, Lodge, and Owl Cave Ring existed prior to that. Which makes me wonder if BOB a genuine Lodge spirit, or is he something new that can interact with that space?

Also, I think it's interesting that Lynch's interest in insects and the 50's being part of the origin of what we see has carried forward since very early drafts of FWwM. Based on these bits from Bob Engels
"I think in the original, original draft, there was this whole thing from 1954. I’d have to go look it up to be sure, but there was this whole thing that took place, the inauguration night of [President] Eisenhower. There were insects on this kitchen table, and somehow the Garmonbozia was there (chuckles), or the corn was there. If my memory serves me correctly, we got that idea because I think it’s Eisenhower’s inauguration, they actually stop the inauguration ball for a half hour, because it was the same night that on I Love Lucy where she had her baby. That was the episode, so everything stopped, so the world stopped."

"Another thing the letter(recieved by WiP from a fan who saw Engels speak at a film school) claimed is that the origin of Mike and Bob was a planet(later corrected by Engles to "a "place." It's an "area." Or it's all a dream.") of corn, that they "fell out with each other on December 31, 1951, and Bob stole a can of corn from Mike. The chase eventually led to Twin Peaks." What can you tell us about this?
Engels answers:
I was being somewhat facetious there, [but] that's pretty close to it."

Yet another Peaks script I'd love to read.

Another thing that I wonder is if, upon realizing that BOB had been created, The Arm realized it needed a real world surrogate to keep an eye on/challenge/combat BOB in the struggle for consumption of human pain and suffering and that led to the need to inhabit Phillip Gerard and "work" with BOB. Perhaps, as I've seen theorized elsewhere, the birth of BOB created an imbalance that needed to be addressed and The Arm and Fireman worked together to this end, since we have seen The Arm and Fireman interact in the Lodge.

On that thought, maybe the bomb didn't allow Lodge spirits to cross over and just birthed BOB and the frogmoth. It could be that this is just the first time they have felt the need to intervene outside of bringing people to the Lodges.
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Cappy
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Cappy » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:28 am

I've always thought that initial origin concept was interesting, with Lucy's televised labor somehow giving birth to BOB. I don't think it could ever top what we eventually got in ep. 8, but I do wonder how creepy it would be to see I Love Lucy footage edited Lynch style, with weird slowed down speech and haunting synths. Or hell, even a black and white BOB slowly crawling over the couch in Lucy and Ricky's living room.
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bowisneski
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby bowisneski » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:21 pm

That's a really interesting way of interpreting that. For whatever reason, that never crossed my mind.

I've also been thinking a lot about the rules of the Doppelgangers. As far as I know the only Doppelgangers we've ever seen are those of the deceased and one Lodge spirit, with Cooper being the apparent exception. Which led me down a little thought hole based on that and what Frost originally wanted to subtitle Season 3 - Twin Peaks: Dead Man’s Passage. Is it death that creates a Doppelganger? Even though it was reversed, was it Cooper's death at the hands of Earle that led to the creation of his Doppelganger? And is it possible he was "dead" until his Doppelganger returned to the Lodge? I've got nothing beyond that thought and questions but maybe someone else can run with it.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby LateReg » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:39 pm

bowisneski wrote:That's a really interesting way of interpreting that. For whatever reason, that never crossed my mind.

I've also been thinking a lot about the rules of the Doppelgangers. As far as I know the only Doppelgangers we've ever seen are those of the deceased and one Lodge spirit, with Cooper being the apparent exception. Which led me down a little thought hole based on that and what Frost originally wanted to subtitle Season 3 - Twin Peaks: Dead Man’s Passage. Is it death that creates a Doppelganger? Even though it was reversed, was it Cooper's death at the hands of Earle that led to the creation of his Doppelganger? And is it possible he was "dead" until his Doppelganger returned to the Lodge? I've got nothing beyond that thought and questions but maybe someone else can run with it.


That's interesting. I can't comment on the "death" aspect, but in a general sense I've always been under the similar impression that if at some point you are going to enter the lodge, then your doppelganger will also already be there. Mine may be lurking there right now...or it may not. I have no way of knowing. But if I could know that he was there, then that would mean that I would have knowledge that I at some point would enter the lodge. That's how I've always understood it, and how Cooper was able to appear to Laura in her dream: because of the timelessness of the lodge, once you're there you've always been there.
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Isis Unveiled
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Isis Unveiled » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:09 pm

I was also also perplexed by the concept of the doppelgänger in The Return. It led me to reflect on the last episode of Season 2 where we see a doppelgänger for BOB and one for Laura. And we see Diane's doppelgänger in Part 18 when they arrive at the motel, and I've always thought initially that Dopplecoop murdered Diane when he came out of Glastonbury Grove.

That's how I've always understood it, and how Cooper was able to appear to Laura in her dream: because of the timelessness of the lodge, once you're there you've always been there.


Didn't Ronnet say to Coop in the mauve room: "When you get there, you will already be there." Also notice the numbers over the outlets in Part 3 correspond to Parts in which the outlets are used to travel between worlds.

Furthermore, I think it's important to note that Dopplecoop entered Jack Rabbit's Palace at 2:53, where he was then transported to the TP Sherrif's station. Much time elapses from the moment he is teleported to the defeat of BOB, and yet, when Coop looks at the clock on the wall it appears to be stuck at 2:53. Either the clock had (symbolically) stopped working at 2:53, or perhaps that entire ordeal transpired in a timeline that was suspended by The Giant/Fireman.

The timeline confusion continues at the beginning of Part 18. Considering that Coop places the ring on Dopplecoop at the end of the battle in Part 17, it seems strikingly important to note that we do not actually see Dopplecoop return to The Waiting Room until the beginning of Part 18, long after Coop goes back in time to FWWM to save Laura.

But the biggest WTF in all that is the fact that the body of Dopplecoop transmutes back into a gold pearl in Part 18. So then doesn't that mean that what went back to the Lodge/Waiting Room was actually a Tulpa and not Dopplecoop? Dougie turned into a gold pearl in Part 3, and he was a Tulpa. White haired Diane's Tulpa turns into a gold pearl... So then WTF was Dopplecoop's flaming corpse doing turning into a gold pearl if it was not manufactured for a purpose? Remember when Coop finally regains consciousness in the hospital? He peeks into the Lodge for a moment to talk to Mike and says rather desperately: "I need another one!" He then proceeds to hand Mike (through the curtain no less) a chunk of his hair. So is he asking Mike to create another Tulpa of himself and is that what we see in the beginning of Part 18?

For a moment there I began to wonder if the scene with the bomb was showing entities crossing over from one reality or timeline to another.


I suspect you are at least partially right in your observation Mr. Strawberry, because inside the atomic bomb explosion there are several moments depicted in color that are weaving in and out of the black & white footage. And we already know that what we are shown in b&w throughout The Return is intended to be seen as past and that color represents the closest thing to present in terms of timelines. So the Trinity test obviously had something to do with the physics of timelines in Twin Peaks.
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Jasper
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Jasper » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:48 pm

Isis Unveiled wrote:the last episode of Season 2 where we see a doppelgänger for BOB


Do we? The way I remember it is that there are photos of Frank Silva with the milky eyes as BOB, but there isn’t actually any footage of him like that in the episode. My memory could be faulty.

As for the golden orbs, maybe they just represent some kind of unit of energy, and you can get that energy from a tulpa, from an expired doppelgänger, and perhaps from some other places as well.
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bowisneski
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby bowisneski » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:33 am

You're correct Jasper. Though there are photos, and presumably footage, of BOB's Doppelganger, the only Doppelgangers we see in the show are Cooper, Laura, Maddy, Caroline, Leland, The Arm, and quite possibly Diane.

As far as Mr. C, he never actually changes in to a golden pearl, he just sits in a chair aflame in the Lodge which makes me think that Doppelgangers and tulpas are separate entities. The golden pearl that MIKE uses to create Dougie 2.0 is leftover from Dougie or I guess could possibly be the one left by Diane's tulpa.

Speaking of Caroline above, that was the other thing that made me think death has something to do with Doppelgangers.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:56 am

I believe DoppelBob can be glimpsed in the finished cut of E29, but you have to really look for it. Near the end, after Coop and his doppel run out of the Red Room, Bob comes extremely close to camera laughing maniacally. I believe if you freeze frame it you can see that this is the doppel, but in real time you don’t notice because there are a lot of strobe effects and he’s onscreen for a couple of frames at a time.

Bowisneski is correct that we never see Mr. C turn into a gold bead. He just burns.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby LateReg » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:27 am

Isis Unveiled wrote:Didn't Ronnet say to Coop in the mauve room: "When you get there, you will already be there." Also notice the numbers over the outlets in Part 3 correspond to Parts in which the outlets are used to travel between worlds.

Furthermore, I think it's important to note that Dopplecoop entered Jack Rabbit's Palace at 2:53, where he was then transported to the TP Sherrif's station. Much time elapses from the moment he is teleported to the defeat of BOB, and yet, when Coop looks at the clock on the wall it appears to be stuck at 2:53. Either the clock had (symbolically) stopped working at 2:53, or perhaps that entire ordeal transpired in a timeline that was suspended by The Giant/Fireman.

The timeline confusion continues at the beginning of Part 18. Considering that Coop places the ring on Dopplecoop at the end of the battle in Part 17, it seems strikingly important to note that we do not actually see Dopplecoop return to The Waiting Room until the beginning of Part 18, long after Coop goes back in time to FWWM to save Laura.

But the biggest WTF in all that is the fact that the body of Dopplecoop transmutes back into a gold pearl in Part 18. So then doesn't that mean that what went back to the Lodge/Waiting Room was actually a Tulpa and not Dopplecoop? Dougie turned into a gold pearl in Part 3, and he was a Tulpa. White haired Diane's Tulpa turns into a gold pearl... So then WTF was Dopplecoop's flaming corpse doing turning into a gold pearl if it was not manufactured for a purpose? Remember when Coop finally regains consciousness in the hospital? He peeks into the Lodge for a moment to talk to Mike and says rather desperately: "I need another one!" He then proceeds to hand Mike (through the curtain no less) a chunk of his hair. So is he asking Mike to create another Tulpa of himself and is that what we see in the beginning of Part 18?


Yes, I thought of American Girl's line in the mauve room as I wrote that, but I had thought that's how it works (once you're there, you've always been there) ever since first seeing Fire Walk With Me. Very cool connection! And I've also noticed the numbers over the outlets corresponding with the Part numbers - in part 3, Cooper enters the "real" world as Dougie, and then in part 15, he electrocutes himself back to being Cooper. A very cool meta-way of looking at things.

And I know others pointed this out already, but since I'm directly responding I just thought I'd second that Doppelcoop/Mr. C does not turn into a gold pearl. He just burns up. The gold pearl you may be thinking of is used to create another Dougie in part 18.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby missoulamt » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:12 am

I am just rewatching TR in its entirety and it didn't strike me on the first viewing, but I now just noticed a striking similarity between Jack Rabbit's Palace and the large rock in the big sea that Cooper falls down onto. Anyone else thought of that? :)
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby LateReg » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:27 pm

missoulamt wrote:I am just rewatching TR in its entirety and it didn't strike me on the first viewing, but I now just noticed a striking similarity between Jack Rabbit's Palace and the large rock in the big sea that Cooper falls down onto. Anyone else thought of that? :)


Yes, I definitely think Jack Rabbits Palace tree very much looks like the Fireman's home on the sea. The zooming in and upwards shot of it in Part 14 is even similar to the shot of the fortress in Part 8, with the protruding steeple like thing at the top of both sealing the deal.

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