Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

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mtwentz
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby mtwentz » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:17 pm

The FBI does conduct some international operations, so them having a man in Colombia would not be unheard of. Not sure though if an FBI man would actually work undercover- more often I would think it would be the DEA or CIA that would have deep cover agents abroad.
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:46 pm

mtwentz wrote:The FBI does conduct some international operations, so them having a man in Colombia would not be unheard of. Not sure though if an FBI man would actually work undercover- more often I would think it would be the DEA or CIA that would have deep cover agents abroad.


Maybe he was infiltrating the DEA like Denise. :lol:
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby claaa7 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:14 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I sort of got the sense from Part 15 that Cooper and Jeffries may not have spoken since FWWM. When Jeffries says they “used to” speak, Mr. C immediately references Jeffries’s appearance in Philadelphia, as if that was the last time they spoke. That whole exchange is odd.

I think we can take everything Mr. C says in the prison interrogation scenes with a grain of salt. We know he wasn’t driving to be debriefed by Gordon, as he claims. It seems like Mr. C may have believed his was in league with Jeffries but they may not have directly spoken, rather perhaps relaying information through coded “messages.”


Yes, this is exactly as how i read it as welll... this was many years ago and they pobably havenät heard zip from Jeffries from February 1989 so when Jeffries gave him that information he thought it was safe and could save the live of his good friend Jeffries although it obviously pained him having to keep his mouth shout to the Blue Rose and Albert. the thing is that Jeffries throughout the years has become somewhat confused in the aether (and it could have even been Coop himslef making that original phone call, though is trongly doubt it.

as you say Mr. Reindeer, why would they have a man in Columbia... but things like that happen...i guess that contact in Bolomvbia is part of a cocaine ring, cocaine that was on the way to be shipped to the US, , Twin Peaks, etc.

In terms of South America, I think an agent there may have simply caught wind of Mr. C’s criminal enterprise and needed to be snuffed — we know that Mr. C was living and operating down there, and that he was photographed in the course of a wider investigation. The real question is why the FBI, a domestic organization, would have a “man in Colombia”?

The Buenos Aires stuff is truly baffling to me (in a good way). I associate the black box with Mr. C “leaving messages” for Jeffries. I think what he does with the prison alarm system is subterfuge so the warden can’t trace his call. I have no idea why the box turns into a deformed version of the “soul” bead. Perhaps Jeffries’s soul is corrupted/deformed from his years lost outside timespace?

The “Phillip” voice from Part 2 being Judy is consistent with the remark, “I missed you in New York.” I do think she is the most likely candidate.[/quote]
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Xavi
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Xavi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 am

Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

The first time ever that Cooper entered or saw the Waiting Room must have been when he informed Albert about a blond teenager that was going to be murdered. This, of course, was a depiction of ... the future. The second time (but I could be miscounting) was during a dream Cooper had in room 315 of the GNH, where Laura Palmer whispered in his ear "whodunnit." This is what we would call the past.

Now, things become complicated. When Gordon and his crew entered the morgue, where Diane started to smoke, he exclusively and very succinctly said "The Waiting Room." A morgue is a "place" where the living can meet the dead, before the dead commence their journey to their final destination. How appropriate !

In the end of FWWM, Cooper attended The Waiting Room as Laura found herself among angels; i.e. she was on the verge of commencing her last voyage, which I guess would be toward the Giant's.

At 2:53 Cooper dies in the hospital, then he meets the Giant, and wakes up in a state of omnipresence and omniscience; everywhere and anytime he is at that same time 2:53 in perfect harmony with each cause and effect in this predestined universe. Each word he pronounces, is in sync with his action.

Evil, or an aspect of it, is not something one man can defeat all by himself; it is a joined effort by many at a specific time and place; i.c. the sheriff's station. The superimposed head of Cooper insinuates that he is both an observer and a participant in and of that very moment, as if he is at two places at the same time - yes he is both dead (at the Giant's) and not dead (at the sheriff's) at the same time.

Anyhow, he enters the furnace-room with key 315, where he "joins" MIKE (the one armed man, a denizen of The Waiting Room). Now, wait a minute. What the heck, he meets and greets this creature without any constraint? Where is this? Not kindergarten, is it? Can a key from the past just open some random door and provide entrance to an outbuilding of The Waiting Room? To just anyone? Why was that door also presented to James, some time ago? I still don't know.

Before disappearing behind that door, Cooper said that he would meet Diane again at the curtain call. It turns out that he was literally predicting what was going to happen. MIKE assists Cooper in their passage (Does MIKE's declamation of his "Fire walk with me" occur simultaneously with Bad Cooper's burning in the Waiting Room? Well, it's still 2:53, isn't it?) to finally meeting the long lost Phillip Jeffries, who perseveres above the convenience store in a motel room behind a radiator, which is a heating and radiation device also known from Eraserhead, where it functions as a symbol in Henry's life to divide reality from his longing for a warm imaginary world with the all white girl and her cloudy cheeks. Phillip grants Cooper access to a very specific space-time location, and MIKE ignites his life incarnating electricity as if Cooper had died a second death. Cooper re-appears in the woods at the day that Laura Palmer was going to get murdered. Is it a spot, where the owls are not what they seem?

Cooper guides Laura to the golden portal, but something (the "it is in our house now" sound?) prevents the final steps. Laura disappears and disappears again. Then from the woods Cooper enters the notorious Red Curtains, while July Cruise's love theme fills the scenery.

In his present state Cooper finds no restriction at all of entering and leaving The Waiting Room - he must be both dead and alive; a denizen like MIKE, a creature of the in-between world. He simply flutters his hand like MIKE and he's found himself an exit. Whereas the "normal exits" were to be found at the extreme left or right, his way out takes place somewhere in the middle.

He meets Diane who calls "Is it you? Is it really you?" completely in compliance with his prediction. Isn’t that amazing, and magical?

So far, Cooper's story from the hospital to the Waiting Room flows like a river, but at the 430 mark fear becomes palpable. Cooper and Diane seem full aware of what they are going into. Yet another cross over, another metamorphosis? “A kiss before dying.” Again? The love scene in the motel gets the look and feel of an obscure ritual, a magick moment, which ends the story of Dale and Diane. In media res the story evolves and progresses haphazardly emerging notions of nowadays reality. Two souls wandering in the disrupted fabrics of space-time, crossing random frontiers between the real and the imaginary.

Once again Cooper is being caught in a state of madness, albeit this time he’s not alone. “How’s Annie?” has been replaced by a faint distant mother’s call “Laaaaaauuuura” and a horrible scream.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby dkenny78 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:10 am

Mr. Strawberry wrote:Based on what happened at the Sheriff's Station, it appears as though BOB could easily dispatch Dale Cooper, but the question remains as to whether or not a BOB-inhabited Mr. C could do the same.



Good point, though it does illustrate one of the things I least liked about 'The Return.' I absolutely hate the idea that Lodge spirits, in their purely spiritual form, can have some sort of physical impact on real people in the real world. In the original series, it appeared that the spiritual forces needed to act through a human vessel to physically interact with our world. Josie's death is probably the only sort-of exception to this rule, but it's not like BOB came into the room and physically snapped her neck.

If a BOB orb can assault human beings without the aid of a 'vehicle,' or the Woodsmen can crush people's skulls, then why even bother to possess people?
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Pinky » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:14 am

Xavi wrote:Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology



Anyhow, he enters the furnace-room with key 315, where he "joins" MIKE (the one armed man, a denizen of The Waiting Room). Now, wait a minute. What the heck, he meets and greets this creature without any constraint? Where is this? Not kindergarten, is it? Can a key from the past just open some random door and provide entrance to an outbuilding of The Waiting Room? To just anyone? Why was that door also presented to James, some time ago? I still don't know.





I'm probably wrong, but I thought that this was the one appearance of the actual Philip Gerard. He does not talk in Lodgespeak, and Jeffries' answer to Coop's 'Philip??' with 'please...be specific' feels like a Lynchian joke, similar to that 'this time doesn't count' scene with The Cowboy in Mulholland Drive. Coop is on this very serious and potentially world-changing quest, but Steam Jeffries is out of time and confused and doesn't even know if Coop is asking for Jeffries or Gerard.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Cappy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:13 am

I do feel Phillip Gerard is somehow freed of MIKE/The Arm's influence during or before season 3. During the original series & FWWM, he alternates between being an innocent shoe salesman and feuding with BOB over garmonbozia. In Season 3, Phillip Gerard is trapped in the Red Room, and garmonbozia is out of the question, as Mr. C has sublimated BOB into a somewhat dormant kidney stone. Mr. C seems to be using BOB for some sort of power, the way Green Lantern uses his ring. Any heinous act Mr. C commits is for his own benefit, not the accumulation of garmonbozia. He does vomit up a lot of creamed corn in ep. 3, but that might just be because he had it for dinner in ep. 1.

In the context of S3, I think that Phillip Gerard's modus operandi has changed a great deal. MIKE, his occupying entity, has (d)evolved into a tree, and appears weakened and frail. Maybe MIKE has been starved of garmonbozia too long, or possibly holding Laura's soul (along with her white light and angels) captive has effected him on some way.

This might be a huge leap, but... I imagine that Phillip Gerard somehow, in the time between season 2 & 3, wrestled himself free from MIKE's control, and possibly gained a degree of mastery over the Red Room. Gerard now appears to operate as the caretaker of the Red Room while MIKE wilts and withers. Maybe in Philip Gerard's spiritual journey he grew to understand JUDY and the origin of BOB, and has vowed to help stop them. Or maybe he sees the Red Room as a sort of a natural phenomena that will always occur, so he tries to operate it in a more humane way than MIKE did.

Phillip also goes way out of his way to help Cooper this season. He coaxes Dougie into buying a pie that saves his life, and he even creates a new Dougie at Cooper's request.

This is all just speculation, but Phillip Gerard's M.O. is different in S3. He's almost like Cooper's mystical Q (Bond Q, not Star Trek Q). That's not a complaint... just as amused observation.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:35 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:I
In terms of South America, I think an agent there may have simply caught wind of Mr. C’s criminal enterprise and needed to be snuffed — we know that Mr. C was living and operating down there, and that he was photographed in the course of a wider investigation. The real question is why the FBI, a domestic organization, would have a “man in Colombia”?


Remember that The Blue Rose Task Force is not just an FBI unit, it is co-sponsored by the US air force and probably several other entities as well.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby dkenny78 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:57 pm

Cappy wrote:
This is all just speculation, but Phillip Gerard's M.O. is different in S3. He's almost like Cooper's mystical Q (Bond Q, not Star Trek Q). That's not a complaint... just as amused observation.


Very interesting. I also wonder what Gerard's role would have been in the new series had Michael J. Anderson returned. While I do believe that many of his Red Room scenes would have been given to the Man From Another Place, it would also be strange to see the MFAP act in such an overtly helpful role.

It's worth pointing out though that, with the exception of BOB who has always been malevolent, the M.O.s of the Lodge spirits have been shifting constantly since the original series. The Giant/Fireman appears to be the most consistently benevolent, but then there's his troubling appearance in Episode 29 where he appears to be in league with the spirits that are trying to entrap Cooper's soul (or, at least, he's not opposed to them). MIKE goes from BOB's born-again nemesis, determined to stop his reign of terror, to disgruntled ex-partner eager to get his fair share of the garmonbozia, and finally to Cooper's spirutual guide. And, 27 years later, I still can't figure out if the MFAP is in league with BOB, opposed to him, or just neutral.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby eyeboogers » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:00 pm

dkenny78 wrote: 27 years later, I still can't figure out if the MFAP is in league with BOB, opposed to him, or just neutral.


Well, that shadow version of the tree seemed fairly evil. It is only at the very end, when TEOTA starts talking about the story of the little girl who lived down the lane that things get murky. What is up with that story anyway.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Xavi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:04 pm

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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:16 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:In terms of South America, I think an agent there may have simply caught wind of Mr. C’s criminal enterprise and needed to be snuffed — we know that Mr. C was living and operating down there, and that he was photographed in the course of a wider investigation. The real question is why the FBI, a domestic organization, would have a “man in Colombia”?

The FBI has an office in Colombia.

From their website: The FBI has offices around the globe. These offices—called legal attachés or legats—are located in U.S. embassies.

Mr. Reindeer wrote:The Buenos Aires stuff is truly baffling to me (in a good way). I associate the black box with Mr. C “leaving messages” for Jeffries. I think what he does with the prison alarm system is subterfuge so the warden can’t trace his call. I have no idea why the box turns into a deformed version of the “soul” bead. Perhaps Jeffries’s soul is corrupted/deformed from his years lost outside timespace?

Original Series:
John Justice Wheeler's partner is murdered in Brazil.

Fire Walk With Me:
Jeffries is on a case in Argentina.

The Return:
Mr. C has been living in Brazil and communicating with a device in Argentina.

If we start with new information presented in The Return and work back through time, I suppose we could draw some conclusions or if nothing else, piece together a reasonable bit of speculation. We've got a black box resting in a gold pan, on mine cart tracks within an unnamed mine somewhere in Argentina. The box may be a relay device, but whatever it is, it is seemingly tied to Jeffries. It's possible that Jeffries was investigating a matter related to gold mining in some fashion. It is also possible that John Justice Wheeler was involved with gold mining operations.

Why gold? What's the significance of the device's transformation? I don't have anything beyond some vague ideas related to the so called Philosopher's Stone and the fact that JJW is not in Audrey's life.

While researching historical writings about the Stone of the Philosophers, I learned that one purported use of this alchemical knowledge is the ability to create a clone! For me, that was enough to cement this wild theory. Not only do we see a literal clone created by Mr. C, we also see him transmute one metal into another, and the end product of that transmutation resembles the very thing that his clone was fashioned from.

We also observe Mr. C doing supernatural things that could be explained by something Sir Thomas Browne wrote in his spiritual testament "Religio Medici" in 1643:

The smattering I have of the Philosophers stone, (which is something more than the perfect exaltation of gold) hath taught me a great deale of Divinity.

Whether or not JJW has anything to do with this stuff is basically just for fun. Without any solid basis to indicate why he would want a life apart from Audrey, it's fun to speculate that he was more than a simple businessman, had stumbled onto legends about the Stone of Philosophers, and had reason to believe the secret was in South America. I like to imagine that he was either onto the secret or had even made the discovery, only to meet his demise at the hands of Mr. C.

Also, among the many names given to the Philosopher's Stone over time is "in water at the box" which makes me think of "this is the water and this is the well".
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Xavi
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Xavi » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:52 am

I thought that this thread was about Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology? But, if you want to talk about Colombia, you have to be sure that it wasn't about Columbia, which brings the problem to capital D and capital C. Where do those letters come from? "Washington State or Washington City?" And this folds all the way back to the notorious "Congressmen's Dilemma."

https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/a-23-a-2004-10-13-6-1-83122312/123257.html

Can we talk about the mythology, now? Please?
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Mr. Strawberry » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:15 am

Xavi wrote:I thought that this thread was about Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology?

Side discussions inevitably pop up in each thread and it's perfectly acceptable as far as I know.

Xavi wrote:But, if you want to talk about Colombia, you have to be sure that it wasn't about Columbia, which brings the problem to capital D and capital C. Where do those letters come from? "Washington State or Washington City?" And this folds all the way back to the notorious "Congressmen's Dilemma."

https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/a-23-a-2004-10-13-6-1-83122312/123257.html

English is my first language and I also speak Japanese, with a couple years of French on the side. I've never heard D.C. referred to as "Columbia" in any of those languages.

Xavi wrote:Can we talk about the mythology, now? Please?

I'll bite when there's something to chew on.
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Re: Black Lodge/White Lodge mythology

Postby Robin Davies » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:04 pm

eyeboogers wrote:
dkenny78 wrote: 27 years later, I still can't figure out if the MFAP is in league with BOB, opposed to him, or just neutral.


Well, that shadow version of the tree seemed fairly evil. It is only at the very end, when TEOTA starts talking about the story of the little girl who lived down the lane that things get murky. What is up with that story anyway.
If The Evolution of the Arm is evil, then what does that make its doppelganger? Surely that was even worse when it sent Cooper into "non-existence".

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