Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

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Nighthawk
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Nighthawk » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:46 am

LateReg wrote:First, I get that Cooper knew what he was trying to do - changing the past, which would result in things being different - but I don't know that we can take that Odessa world to mean that it changed in the ways he meant to change it.


To that end, why did Cooper and Diane travel to another reality? They knew things could be very different where they were going, but had no control over what would happen. It seems like a huge risk. Cooper had already prevented Laura from dying in 1989. This should have become a retroactive change in reality when he came out at Glastonbury Grove.

Putting a spoiler for those who did not read The Final Dossier:
Spoiler:
In the final chapter, Tammy realizes that history has been retconned. Laura's murder has been erased out of existence, and people seem to suffer from at least a partial amnesia regarding the events. Tammy reports feeling the effects of it herself, although they subside once she travels away from Twin Peaks.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:03 pm

Nighthawk wrote:
LateReg wrote:First, I get that Cooper knew what he was trying to do - changing the past, which would result in things being different - but I don't know that we can take that Odessa world to mean that it changed in the ways he meant to change it.


To that end, why did Cooper and Diane travel to another reality? They knew things could be very different where they were going, but had no control over what would happen. It seems like a huge risk. Cooper had already prevented Laura from dying in 1989. This should have become a retroactive change in reality when he came out at Glastonbury Grove.

Putting a spoiler for those who did not read The Final Dossier:
Spoiler:
In the final chapter, Tammy realizes that history has been retconned. Laura's murder has been erased out of existence, and people seem to suffer from at least a partial amnesia regarding the events. Tammy reports feeling the effects of it herself, although they subside once she travels away from Twin Peaks.


I've wondered if, since she got sucked away, Cooper knew he prevented her death. That's a major question. He may have not even known whether he succeeded at that point. Is he surprised she got sucked away, or not? I think he was, as I believe he was trying to lead her to the Fireman. Does that mean the opening conversation in Part 1 between he and the Fireman takes place after she gets sucked away?

I guess as far as why they went to Odessa, it's because yes he prevented her death, but she was missing, and possibly in another world. It wasn't like she just woke up at home, in which case everything would have been more or less normal and Cooper wouldn't have had to travel to Odessa. So they had to take the risk, it seems. Is my take.
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yaxomoxay
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Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby yaxomoxay » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:40 pm

LateReg wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
LateReg wrote:First, I get that Cooper knew what he was trying to do - changing the past, which would result in things being different - but I don't know that we can take that Odessa world to mean that it changed in the ways he meant to change it.


To that end, why did Cooper and Diane travel to another reality? They knew things could be very different where they were going, but had no control over what would happen. It seems like a huge risk. Cooper had already prevented Laura from dying in 1989. This should have become a retroactive change in reality when he came out at Glastonbury Grove.

Putting a spoiler for those who did not read The Final Dossier:
Spoiler:
In the final chapter, Tammy realizes that history has been retconned. Laura's murder has been erased out of existence, and people seem to suffer from at least a partial amnesia regarding the events. Tammy reports feeling the effects of it herself, although they subside once she travels away from Twin Peaks.


I've wondered if, since she got sucked away, Cooper knew he prevented her death. That's a major question. He may have not even known whether he succeeded at that point. Is he surprised she got sucked away, or not? I think he was, as I believe he was trying to lead her to the Fireman. Does that mean the opening conversation in Part 1 between he and the Fireman takes place after she gets sucked away?

I guess as far as why they went to Odessa, it's because yes he prevented her death, but she was missing, and possibly in another world. It wasn't like she just woke up at home, in which case everything would have been more or less normal and Cooper wouldn't have had to travel to Odessa. So they had to take the risk, it seems. Is my take.


There is one problem to think about. If Cooper erased Laura’s murder and changed the future, the Odessa timeline clearly explains that Cooper also changed the past (pre-Murder).


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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:58 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
I think Cooper was trying to bring Laura to the Fireman’s (which may or may not be the White Lodge). He is leading her to the golden pool that takes both Mr. C and Andy there. And a waiting room, by definition, isn’t a place to spend the rest of eternity.


Factually Cooper said "We're going home." Also, Leland Palmer requested Cooper, while being in the Waiting Room "Find Laura."


But he didn’t say, “Find Laura and bring her back here.” Why are you assuming that the waiting room/Red Room is home? My take is that “home” is a place of nirvana. He is trying to achieve for himself and Laura what Henry Spencer, Ronnie Rocket, Nikki Grace, and to some extent even John Merrick experience at the ends of their respective journeys: spiritual peace and oneness with the universe. As opposed to the Red Room, which by its very name is an in-between state (“I am dead yet I live”), full of bickering spirits who feast on human suffering. In FWWM, MfAP even tells Cooper, “You have nowhere to go but home,” implying that the Red Room is not home. And you’re still not addressing the fact that, when Cooper tells Laura they are going home, he leads her to the portal that we know goes to the Fireman’s.


It's interesting that Cooper chooses to try and take Laura there because when we saw Mr. C go to the Fireman's, we saw on the screen Sarah Palmer's house before the Fireman swiped the screen. Speaking of home, Mr. C mentions to Gordon he never left home, whatever that means.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Xavi » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:28 pm

chromereflectsimage wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Xavi wrote:
Factually Cooper said "We're going home." Also, Leland Palmer requested Cooper, while being in the Waiting Room "Find Laura."


But he didn’t say, “Find Laura and bring her back here.” Why are you assuming that the waiting room/Red Room is home? My take is that “home” is a place of nirvana. He is trying to achieve for himself and Laura what Henry Spencer, Ronnie Rocket, Nikki Grace, and to some extent even John Merrick experience at the ends of their respective journeys: spiritual peace and oneness with the universe. As opposed to the Red Room, which by its very name is an in-between state (“I am dead yet I live”), full of bickering spirits who feast on human suffering. In FWWM, MfAP even tells Cooper, “You have nowhere to go but home,” implying that the Red Room is not home. And you’re still not addressing the fact that, when Cooper tells Laura they are going home, he leads her to the portal that we know goes to the Fireman’s.


It's interesting that Cooper chooses to try and take Laura there because when we saw Mr. C go to the Fireman's, we saw on the screen Sarah Palmer's house before the Fireman swiped the screen. Speaking of home, Mr. C mentions to Gordon he never left home, whatever that means.


Yes, Mr C told Gordon "I've never really left home, Gordon." while he was interrogated. This is consistent with the assumption that Dale Cooper's home is the Waiting Room, which is a space behind Red Curtains ... and in some poetical way this alludes to the white screen in a cinema. Also, Mr C's twin self, the good Dale, was still stuck in that realm at that time, and it seems very logical that these two halves of Cooper were connected somehow.

Apparently Cooper could not bring Laura "home" via the golden pool portal, which lead straight to The Giant, some hiccup of time, as if a needle hit a bump in a groove and is unable to finish a song, prevented this "short cut." So, Cooper found another way; i.e. a long and winding road.

The good part of this is that the Waiting Room facilitates a place where the living can meet the dead, and it is a place where Laura's father can meet his daughter, and maybe Laura and Coop can continue their journey to the Palace from there as well. Isn't home a place where families reunite? With a little imagination even Sarah can visit them in her dreams also.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Hester Prynne » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:55 am

LateReg wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
LateReg wrote:First, I get that Cooper knew what he was trying to do - changing the past, which would result in things being different - but I don't know that we can take that Odessa world to mean that it changed in the ways he meant to change it.


To that end, why did Cooper and Diane travel to another reality? They knew things could be very different where they were going, but had no control over what would happen. It seems like a huge risk. Cooper had already prevented Laura from dying in 1989. This should have become a retroactive change in reality when he came out at Glastonbury Grove.

Putting a spoiler for those who did not read The Final Dossier:
Spoiler:
In the final chapter, Tammy realizes that history has been retconned. Laura's murder has been erased out of existence, and people seem to suffer from at least a partial amnesia regarding the events. Tammy reports feeling the effects of it herself, although they subside once she travels away from Twin Peaks.


I've wondered if, since she got sucked away, Cooper knew he prevented her death. That's a major question. He may have not even known whether he succeeded at that point. Is he surprised she got sucked away, or not? I think he was, as I believe he was trying to lead her to the Fireman. Does that mean the opening conversation in Part 1 between he and the Fireman takes place after she gets sucked away?

I guess as far as why they went to Odessa, it's because yes he prevented her death, but she was missing, and possibly in another world. It wasn't like she just woke up at home, in which case everything would have been more or less normal and Cooper wouldn't have had to travel to Odessa. So they had to take the risk, it seems. Is my take.


Part of the mystery is what happens to Cooper after Laura is grabbed away from him. He looks down to his left, there is a brief glow, and he is suddenly in the Red Room again replaying out a different version of events from what we saw earlier in the show. How did he get back to the Red Room? Was he transported there by the Fireman or Judy, or is the Cooper we see in the Red Room a Cooper from a different timeline, a duplicate Cooper? If Cooper has gone back to 1989, there are essentially two Coopers existing in the same timeline.

I think the Cooper we know in the timeline where Laura died and where he went back to save her ended up with the Giant after Laura was grabbed away, and this is maybe where he and the Giant have the conversation about 430 and Richard and Linda. The Cooper we see in the Red Room in Ep. 18 is the Cooper from the timeline where Laura went missing. This Cooper perhaps knows nothing of Laura's murder in this reality. His goal has been to find Laura all of these years and return her home, which is why the events play out differently in the Red Room. When we see the replay of Laura in the Lodge, I don't think that actually happens in this version of events. It happens right after the Arm asks Cooper if this is the story of the little girl who lived down the lane, which seems to imply that Laura is that story, and seems to be replayed more for the audience as opposed to something that is actually occurring in this sequence of events. The only thing that doesn't make sense is how this Cooper would know about 430, unless this was a different conversation that he had with the Giant or came about this information in a different way. He doesn't seem to know about Richard and Linda as he's surprised by Diane's note and continues to function as Cooper and not Richard, even though he has clearly changed and is not acting like the Cooper we know.

- Don't know if any of this makes sense as I have confused myself, but basically I think the trip to Odessa was maybe the goal of a Cooper from a different timeline and the goal of our Cooper from this timeline merging - finding Laura to return her home and defeating Judy. Two birds with one stone.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:15 pm

Hester Prynne wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
To that end, why did Cooper and Diane travel to another reality? They knew things could be very different where they were going, but had no control over what would happen. It seems like a huge risk. Cooper had already prevented Laura from dying in 1989. This should have become a retroactive change in reality when he came out at Glastonbury Grove.

Putting a spoiler for those who did not read The Final Dossier:
Spoiler:
In the final chapter, Tammy realizes that history has been retconned. Laura's murder has been erased out of existence, and people seem to suffer from at least a partial amnesia regarding the events. Tammy reports feeling the effects of it herself, although they subside once she travels away from Twin Peaks.


I've wondered if, since she got sucked away, Cooper knew he prevented her death. That's a major question. He may have not even known whether he succeeded at that point. Is he surprised she got sucked away, or not? I think he was, as I believe he was trying to lead her to the Fireman. Does that mean the opening conversation in Part 1 between he and the Fireman takes place after she gets sucked away?

I guess as far as why they went to Odessa, it's because yes he prevented her death, but she was missing, and possibly in another world. It wasn't like she just woke up at home, in which case everything would have been more or less normal and Cooper wouldn't have had to travel to Odessa. So they had to take the risk, it seems. Is my take.


Part of the mystery is what happens to Cooper after Laura is grabbed away from him. He looks down to his left, there is a brief glow, and he is suddenly in the Red Room again replaying out a different version of events from what we saw earlier in the show. How did he get back to the Red Room? Was he transported there by the Fireman or Judy, or is the Cooper we see in the Red Room a Cooper from a different timeline, a duplicate Cooper? If Cooper has gone back to 1989, there are essentially two Coopers existing in the same timeline.

I think the Cooper we know in the timeline where Laura died and where he went back to save her ended up with the Giant after Laura was grabbed away, and this is maybe where he and the Giant have the conversation about 430 and Richard and Linda. The Cooper we see in the Red Room in Ep. 18 is the Cooper from the timeline where Laura went missing. This Cooper perhaps knows nothing of Laura's murder in this reality. His goal has been to find Laura all of these years and return her home, which is why the events play out differently in the Red Room. When we see the replay of Laura in the Lodge, I don't think that actually happens in this version of events. It happens right after the Arm asks Cooper if this is the story of the little girl who lived down the lane, which seems to imply that Laura is that story, and seems to be replayed more for the audience as opposed to something that is actually occurring in this sequence of events. The only thing that doesn't make sense is how this Cooper would know about 430, unless this was a different conversation that he had with the Giant or came about this information in a different way. He doesn't seem to know about Richard and Linda as he's surprised by Diane's note and continues to function as Cooper and not Richard, even though he has clearly changed and is not acting like the Cooper we know.

- Don't know if any of this makes sense as I have confused myself, but basically I think the trip to Odessa was maybe the goal of a Cooper from a different timeline and the goal of our Cooper from this timeline merging - finding Laura to return her home and defeating Judy. Two birds with one stone.


OMG, my head hurts :) You’re onto something, and the idea of (a) Cooper not knowing that Laura is dead is mindblowing.
I think that with lots of patience, coffee, donuts, and resilience we should begin listing Cooper’s deals in TP:TR trying later to build a sort of timeline, removing Dougie from the equation for now.

Also, a question. I was re-watching on youtube Diane and Cooper arriving at the 430 “portal” in the desert. Is that the same place that Cooper sees from the black lodge ?


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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Pinky » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:41 pm

I took it to be an electrical cable overhead, near to where Mr.C was supposed to succumb to the pull of the cigarette lighter.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:57 pm

I like where your head’s at, Hester, although I’m not crazy about your idea that the Laura scene was repeated solely for the audience’s benefit. The Red Room scenes were carefully re-edited between the Part 2 version and the Part 17 version. Are people generally aware that some of the “repeated” footage (notably the Leland and Laura scenes) are alternate angles (and in the case of Leland, I believe, an alternate take entirely?). The Laura scene in Part 17 cuts in to the close-up earlier, and Cooper says “Huh?” at an earlier point than in the Part 2 version (the point when he says it in Part 2 is silent in Part 17). This was obviously a conscious editing/foley decision. Not sure how much we’re supposed to read into it, but I do think this is more than a simple flashback/refresher (especially given that sequence’s obvious importance, with the end credits seeming to draw that whisper out into eternity).

None of which is meant to negate your theory, which I otherwise quite like!
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby I'm the Muffin » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:32 am

I'm not sure how it all fits together, but my understanding is that Cooper is trapped in a kind of loop (as suggested by the repeated Red Room scenes), and that the Fireman's message is a warning, not simply a reminder. He's warning Cooper away from the sequence of events that will lead to Richard and Linda etc. Cooper says he understands, but the Fireman replies, 'You are far away'....as in, 'You are far away from understanding what I'm trying to convey to you'.

To answer the OP's question, I don't think Cooper precisely failed--but after succeeding in putting the Mr. C situation right, he should have quit while he was ahead. Trying to save Laura's life too was folly, an act of well-meaning hubris, and is perhaps what the Fireman was warning Cooper away from. Leland says 'find Laura'... but should we really be listening to Leland?
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:52 am

Pinky wrote:I took it to be an electrical cable overhead, near to where Mr.C was supposed to succumb to the pull of the cigarette lighter.


Others had pointed out how much the electrical cable structures (don't know the exact name for them) at 430 resembled the little man/giant from the cave painting. It's actually an uncanny resemblance, if anyone can link a picture. I'm not sure if it was intended but it's so remarkably close that I almost have to think it was. Though how they would have thought of doing such a thing boggles the mind so much that it might just be coincidental. But if it's coincidental it boggles the mind even further! It's a moebius strip.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby claaa7 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:17 am

LateReg wrote:
Pinky wrote:I took it to be an electrical cable overhead, near to where Mr.C was supposed to succumb to the pull of the cigarette lighter.


Others had pointed out how much the electrical cable structures (don't know the exact name for them) at 430 resembled the little man/giant from the cave painting. It's actually an uncanny resemblance, if anyone can link a picture. I'm not sure if it was intended but it's so remarkably close that I almost have to think it was. Though how they would have thought of doing such a thing boggles the mind so much that it might just be coincidental. But if it's coincidental it boggles the mind even further! It's a moebius strip.


right, The Return seems to be full of these kind of situations
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:00 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:While it has crossed my mind that Andy’s “very important” conveyed the mental image to Lucy, it seems to function on a more literal level as Andy pointing at the phone, indicating that the call which is about to come in is very important. Lucy even repeats the words when Frank tells her to take a message (“It’s a very important phone call”). Of course, it could be both things.


That's kind of what I meant, even if I hadn't thought of it so literally pertaining to the phone. Andy somehow helps to get her into position, even though he physically doesn't guide her. Somehow she ends up in that spot through a chain of events that only Andy has already seen, in some slippery mental form. It's like a shared dream, maybe. I can't remember, but when he says that, doesn't she look at the phone and seem to sense something?


Back to this very briefly, as I was reminded of it from the picture posted by Yaxomoxay in the other thread, but I had forgotten that a main component of my argument that Andy's Fireman-induced visions mattered and influenced events because he knows how they are going to occur is that he is the one who moved the chair in Truman's office to the exact spot that would make it possible for Lucy to shoot Mr. C without him noticing. The angle he positions the chair at is very purposeful. This doesn't prove that Andy telling Lucy "very important" triggered something in Lucy, but it does prove that Andy was somehow completely aware of what would happen regarding Mr. C, as he moved Lucy to that spot in his vision and positioned the chair just so in reality, and Lucy eventually wound up shooting Mr. C from his blindspot.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby yaxomoxay » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:15 pm

LateReg wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:While it has crossed my mind that Andy’s “very important” conveyed the mental image to Lucy, it seems to function on a more literal level as Andy pointing at the phone, indicating that the call which is about to come in is very important. Lucy even repeats the words when Frank tells her to take a message (“It’s a very important phone call”). Of course, it could be both things.


That's kind of what I meant, even if I hadn't thought of it so literally pertaining to the phone. Andy somehow helps to get her into position, even though he physically doesn't guide her. Somehow she ends up in that spot through a chain of events that only Andy has already seen, in some slippery mental form. It's like a shared dream, maybe. I can't remember, but when he says that, doesn't she look at the phone and seem to sense something?


Back to this very briefly, as I was reminded of it from the picture posted by Yaxomoxay in the other thread, but I had forgotten that a main component of my argument that Andy's Fireman-induced visions mattered and influenced events because he knows how they are going to occur is that he is the one who moved the chair in Truman's office to the exact spot that would make it possible for Lucy to shoot Mr. C without him noticing. The angle he positions the chair at is very purposeful. This doesn't prove that Andy telling Lucy "very important" triggered something in Lucy, but it does prove that Andy was somehow completely aware of what would happen regarding Mr. C, as he moved Lucy to that spot in his vision and positioned the chair just so in reality, and Lucy eventually wound up shooting Mr. C from his blindspot.



Wait, wait... Andy moves the chair?!? Really? I totally missed it!




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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:35 pm

yaxomoxay wrote:Wait, wait... Andy moves the chair?!? Really? I totally missed it!




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Yes! Moves the chair into position so Mr. C can sit down. Watch him do it. It's very interesting.

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