Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

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Xavi
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Xavi » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:35 am

"Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?"

No, Cooper did not fail, not at all. He exactly did what he had to do: he remembered. He even announced "The past dictates the future." He located Laura, who persisted in the guise of Carrie Page. And he brought her "home." The answer to the question "What year is this?" has two variations. 1. It was around 2014. 2. Sarah's call for Laura also indicated that from "the other side" it was 1989.

Anyway at the end of the day, Cooper brought Laura back into the Waiting Room, where she "was dead, and yet she lived". Is it a giant leap to assume Cooper abides in that same state; being a star and no star at the same time?
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Mr. Reindeer
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:59 am

While it has crossed my mind that Andy’s “very important” conveyed the mental image to Lucy, it seems to function on a more literal level as Andy pointing at the phone, indicating that the call which is about to come in is very important. Lucy even repeats the words when Frank tells her to take a message (“It’s a very important phone call”). Of course, it could be both things.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:03 am

Xavi wrote:Anyway at the end of the day, Cooper brought Laura back into the Waiting Room, where she "was dead, and yet she lived". Is it a giant leap to assume Cooper abides in that same state; being a star and no star at the same time?


I think Cooper was trying to bring Laura to the Fireman’s (which may or may not be the White Lodge). He is leading her to the golden pool that takes both Mr. C and Andy there. And a waiting room, by definition, isn’t a place to spend the rest of eternity.
LateReg
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:02 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:While it has crossed my mind that Andy’s “very important” conveyed the mental image to Lucy, it seems to function on a more literal level as Andy pointing at the phone, indicating that the call which is about to come in is very important. Lucy even repeats the words when Frank tells her to take a message (“It’s a very important phone call”). Of course, it could be both things.


That's kind of what I meant, even if I hadn't thought of it so literally pertaining to the phone. Andy somehow helps to get her into position, even though he physically doesn't guide her. Somehow she ends up in that spot through a chain of events that only Andy has already seen, in some slippery mental form. It's like a shared dream, maybe. I can't remember, but when he says that, doesn't she look at the phone and seem to sense something?
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:10 am

Xavi wrote:"Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?"

No, Cooper did not fail, not at all. He exactly did what he had to do: he remembered. He even announced "The past dictates the future." He located Laura, who persisted in the guise of Carrie Page. And he brought her "home." The answer to the question "What year is this?" has two variations. 1. It was around 2014. 2. Sarah's call for Laura also indicated that from "the other side" it was 1989.

Anyway at the end of the day, Cooper brought Laura back into the Waiting Room, where she "was dead, and yet she lived". Is it a giant leap to assume Cooper abides in that same state; being a star and no star at the same time?


Do you say he brought her back to the Waiting Room because of the final whisper over the credits? Also, what do you think it means that it "What year is this?" has those two variations? I get that those are the two most logical points in time given the information, but what does that mean to you? Also, also..."The past dictates the future." How do you view that as a sign that he succeeded? To me that indicates that he knew he had to change the past, but this Odessa world doesn't concretely indicate one way or the other to me that he succeeded or failed in changing it for the better. Other than, of course and ironically, Laura screaming, which indicates that she remembers. But is that the only goal? To remember?
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:30 pm

LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:While it has crossed my mind that Andy’s “very important” conveyed the mental image to Lucy, it seems to function on a more literal level as Andy pointing at the phone, indicating that the call which is about to come in is very important. Lucy even repeats the words when Frank tells her to take a message (“It’s a very important phone call”). Of course, it could be both things.


That's kind of what I meant, even if I hadn't thought of it so literally pertaining to the phone. Andy somehow helps to get her into position, even though he physically doesn't guide her. Somehow she ends up in that spot through a chain of events that only Andy has already seen, in some slippery mental form. It's like a shared dream, maybe. I can't remember, but when he says that, doesn't she look at the phone and seem to sense something?


I took her expression more as Lucy’s typical sense of confusion, and/or staring at the phone waiting for it to ring in reaction to Andy pointing at it. It could probably be read as sensing something too, but I think it’s open to interpretation. I’ll have to look at it again.

And what do we make of her suddenly understanding cell phones? Is this also part of her new expanded consciousness, conveyed to her by Andy/the Fireman? Is it because Cooper called her from the car when he was on his way there? Did the concept of Cooper being in two places at once somehow enlighten her? (That last doesn’t quite make logical sense, but I think it makes some sort of intuitive sense in that goofy L/F way). The cell phone thing is rather silly to begin with...cell phones were already on the market when the original TP aired (Gordon Gecko!), albeit not widely available. As Mark notes in TSHoTP, car phones have been around since the ‘40s. And anyone who grew up with Get Smart and various other ‘60s spy shows would certainly be familiar with the concept of mobile phones in a fictional setting. But the season also goes out of its way to emphasize how precise Lucy is when it comes to telephones, always elaborately describing which line a caller is on, not leaving a modicum of ambiguity. It definitely seems to be a through-line with her character (and it’s appropriate that she saves the day by taking a phone call), but I’m not 100% sure what to make of it.

(Sorry if I’m wandering a bit OT, but clearly all of this is intertwined, like a ball of Finley’s Fine Twine.)
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby yaxomoxay » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:49 pm

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:While it has crossed my mind that Andy’s “very important” conveyed the mental image to Lucy, it seems to function on a more literal level as Andy pointing at the phone, indicating that the call which is about to come in is very important. Lucy even repeats the words when Frank tells her to take a message (“It’s a very important phone call”). Of course, it could be both things.


That's kind of what I meant, even if I hadn't thought of it so literally pertaining to the phone. Andy somehow helps to get her into position, even though he physically doesn't guide her. Somehow she ends up in that spot through a chain of events that only Andy has already seen, in some slippery mental form. It's like a shared dream, maybe. I can't remember, but when he says that, doesn't she look at the phone and seem to sense something?


I took her expression more as Lucy’s typical sense of confusion, and/or staring at the phone waiting for it to ring in reaction to Andy pointing at it. It could probably be read as sensing something too, but I think it’s open to interpretation. I’ll have to look at it again.

And what do we make of her suddenly understanding cell phones? Is this also part of her new expanded consciousness, conveyed to her by Andy/the Fireman? Is it because Cooper called her from the car when he was on his way there? Did the concept of Cooper being in two places at once somehow enlighten her? (That last doesn’t quite make logical sense, but I think it makes some sort of intuitive sense in that goofy L/F way). The cell phone thing is rather silly to begin with...cell phones were already on the market when the original TP aired (Gordon Gecko!), albeit not widely available. As Mark notes in TSHoTP, car phones have been around since the ‘40s. And anyone who grew up with Get Smart and various other ‘60s spy shows would certainly be familiar with the concept of mobile phones in a fictional setting. But the season also goes out of its way to emphasize how precise Lucy is when it comes to telephones, always elaborately describing which line a caller is on, not leaving a modicum of ambiguity. It definitely seems to be a through-line with her character (and it’s appropriate that she saves the day by taking a phone call), but I’m not 100% sure what to make of it.

(Sorry if I’m wandering a bit OT, but clearly all of this is intertwined, like a ball of Finley’s Fine Twine.)


I think that the cell phones thread has two functions:
1) what we see can’t be Laura’s or Cooper’s dream from the 1980’s
2) most thematically, Lucy can’t deal with duality. Same goes for Andy as the chair shopping scene implies. It’s either one color or another (And according to the blue/gold dress online controversy I guess that the majority of people are like that). It’s only when Andy reaches (well, he’s actually fed) and Lucy understand more consciousness that they can accept more complications to their own lives.

Points for mentioning Gekko’s phone :)


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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:15 pm

Reindeer...while I'm not completely sure, I've always come to the conclusion that Lucy understanding cell phones is actually an illogical thing, as you say. She comes to understand them by talking to one Cooper while another is present in the building. I've partly thought it was a joke, and that she's still no closer to understanding them since it's almost like thus circumstance has allowed her to believe people can be in two places at once because of them. Like when Truman was "fishing" but also walking into the building in Part 4.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby chromereflectsimage » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:06 pm

LateReg wrote:Reindeer...while I'm not completely sure, I've always come to the conclusion that Lucy understanding cell phones is actually an illogical thing, as you say. She comes to understand them by talking to one Cooper while another is present in the building. I've partly thought it was a joke, and that she's still no closer to understanding them since it's almost like thus circumstance has allowed her to believe people can be in two places at once because of them. Like when Truman was "fishing" but also walking into the building in Part 4.

Maybe Lucy's just trying to understand Quantum Superposition and Schrödinger's cat (I'm dead, yet I live.)

After all, Lucy was the first one to consider the importance of the bunny...
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:34 pm

LateReg wrote:Reindeer...while I'm not completely sure, I've always come to the conclusion that Lucy understanding cell phones is actually an illogical thing, as you say. She comes to understand them by talking to one Cooper while another is present in the building. I've partly thought it was a joke, and that she's still no closer to understanding them since it's almost like thus circumstance has allowed her to believe people can be in two places at once because of them. Like when Truman was "fishing" but also walking into the building in Part 4.


I like this a lot. It feels a L/F ‘On the Air’ style joke, but subtler.

I also appreciate the Odessa/jackrabbit thing suggested by chromereflectsimage, but to me, it feels too literal to be intentional. Still very cool though, and I’m certain DKL would appreciate it.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Xavi » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:20 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Xavi wrote:Anyway at the end of the day, Cooper brought Laura back into the Waiting Room, where she "was dead, and yet she lived". Is it a giant leap to assume Cooper abides in that same state; being a star and no star at the same time?


I think Cooper was trying to bring Laura to the Fireman’s (which may or may not be the White Lodge). He is leading her to the golden pool that takes both Mr. C and Andy there. And a waiting room, by definition, isn’t a place to spend the rest of eternity.


Factually Cooper said "We're going home." Also, Leland Palmer requested Cooper, while being in the Waiting Room "Find Laura."
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Xavi » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:35 am

LateReg wrote:
Xavi wrote:"Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?"

No, Cooper did not fail, not at all. He exactly did what he had to do: he remembered. He even announced "The past dictates the future." He located Laura, who persisted in the guise of Carrie Page. And he brought her "home." The answer to the question "What year is this?" has two variations. 1. It was around 2014. 2. Sarah's call for Laura also indicated that from "the other side" it was 1989.

Anyway at the end of the day, Cooper brought Laura back into the Waiting Room, where she "was dead, and yet she lived". Is it a giant leap to assume Cooper abides in that same state; being a star and no star at the same time?


Do you say he brought her back to the Waiting Room because of the final whisper over the credits? Also, what do you think it means that it "What year is this?" has those two variations? I get that those are the two most logical points in time given the information, but what does that mean to you? Also, also..."The past dictates the future." How do you view that as a sign that he succeeded? To me that indicates that he knew he had to change the past, but this Odessa world doesn't concretely indicate one way or the other to me that he succeeded or failed in changing it for the better. Other than, of course and ironically, Laura screaming, which indicates that she remembers. But is that the only goal? To remember?


It means that both Cooper and Laura receive information from two separated "worlds" at one and the same time, which leads me to the conclusion that they persist in the in-between world. Cooper can also exit the Waiting Room "half way through" the Red Curtains, whereas all beings exit at the "edges."

Cooper knew that when he changed the past he would also change the present. He explicitly told that at the sheriff's station. So he knew beforehand what he was going to do. Also, he remembered he was and still is Dale Cooper and not Richard. The Fireman told him to "remember", and even Phillip Jeffries emphasised "Cooper ... Remember!"
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:11 am

Xavi wrote:
Mr. Reindeer wrote:
Xavi wrote:Anyway at the end of the day, Cooper brought Laura back into the Waiting Room, where she "was dead, and yet she lived". Is it a giant leap to assume Cooper abides in that same state; being a star and no star at the same time?


I think Cooper was trying to bring Laura to the Fireman’s (which may or may not be the White Lodge). He is leading her to the golden pool that takes both Mr. C and Andy there. And a waiting room, by definition, isn’t a place to spend the rest of eternity.


Factually Cooper said "We're going home." Also, Leland Palmer requested Cooper, while being in the Waiting Room "Find Laura."


But he didn’t say, “Find Laura and bring her back here.” Why are you assuming that the waiting room/Red Room is home? My take is that “home” is a place of nirvana. He is trying to achieve for himself and Laura what Henry Spencer, Ronnie Rocket, Nikki Grace, and to some extent even John Merrick experience at the ends of their respective journeys: spiritual peace and oneness with the universe. As opposed to the Red Room, which by its very name is an in-between state (“I am dead yet I live”), full of bickering spirits who feast on human suffering. In FWWM, MfAP even tells Cooper, “You have nowhere to go but home,” implying that the Red Room is not home. And you’re still not addressing the fact that, when Cooper tells Laura they are going home, he leads her to the portal that we know goes to the Fireman’s.
Last edited by Mr. Reindeer on Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby Saturn's child » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:18 am

Mr. Reindeer wrote:And what do we make of her suddenly understanding cell phones?


I've really liked the interpretations of Lucy's new understanding (from yourself, LateReg, Xavi, yaxomoxay, chromereflectsimage); gives me new angles to think about it, which is always a good thing in my book.

Personally, I initially read it as a metaphor for understanding Cooper, or rather that Coop & Mr C are one & the same, two iterations of the same individual (Richard?). I find the parallels interesting -- the rape of Diane / Audrey, 'arm'-wrestling against Renzo / Ike the Spike ("Squeeze his hand off!"), the search for Judy / the Palmer household, etc. Almost like INLAND EMPIRE, in a way: a plurality of selves, different aspects of the mind, coming up against the same root problem.
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Re: Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?

Postby LateReg » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:04 am

Xavi wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Xavi wrote:"Did Cooper really fail? Was Laura really supposed to die?"

No, Cooper did not fail, not at all. He exactly did what he had to do: he remembered. He even announced "The past dictates the future." He located Laura, who persisted in the guise of Carrie Page. And he brought her "home." The answer to the question "What year is this?" has two variations. 1. It was around 2014. 2. Sarah's call for Laura also indicated that from "the other side" it was 1989.

It means that both Cooper and Laura receive information from two separated "worlds" at one and the same time, which leads me to the conclusion that they persist in the in-between world. Cooper can also exit the Waiting Room "half way through" the Red Curtains, whereas all beings exit at the "edges."

Cooper knew that when he changed the past he would also change the present. He explicitly told that at the sheriff's station. So he knew beforehand what he was going to do. Also, he remembered he was and still is Dale Cooper and not Richard. The Fireman told him to "remember", and even Phillip Jeffries emphasised "Cooper ... Remember!"


That's all very good, but a couple more questions or comments. First, I get that Cooper knew what he was trying to do - changing the past, which would result in things being different - but I don't know that we can take that Odessa world to mean that it changed in the ways he meant to change it. Isn't it possible that he both did what he set out to do and that it went horribly wrong? I ask this totally open to the possibility that Laura was always supposed to be ripped away (though most think she wasn't and was supposed to be taken to the golden pool) and that Cooper is actually following the Fireman's clues in Odessa and succeeding by holding on to his identity and feeling for the signs.

Secondly, the 1989 signal that Laura is receiving is obvious (her mother's voice) but what signal is Cooper receiving that makes you think he's receiving signals from 2014?

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