Pinky wrote:i'm fine with shifting the Fireman's scene everywhere, I tried many places when trying to get on board with the Coop Hubris theory. I'm not disputing it, Frost basically said it's what it appears to be, it just feels to me like we're supposed to base this on nothing more than Coop being confused in front of the Palmer house (and even from that we can only take that something has gone terribly awry, not that it is in any way Coop's fault).
It's a perfectly valid explanation to say that at some point offscreen, Coop came across some information about the Odessa crossing being 430 miles from some starting position for Coop and Diane, and at some point in his fuckery, Coop is whisked to the Fireman's where he is reminded of his error, perhaps, and told that he is now as a result 'far away'. In this reading, I guess we could take Andy's vision of the electricity pole outside Carrie's house not as a sign that Cooper was on the right path, but as a warning from the Fireman of the grave danger to come? But I would be stumped as to why Major Briggs would try so hard to make sure Coop had access to the boiler room portal of the Great Northern (unless Coop's mistake comes after this moment; the deciding to use Jeffries to go back to change things feels like an obvious contender, but after two seasons and a film's worth of watching Cooper follow their clues to relative success, it feels a bit disingenuous to suggest that, oh, this time it didn't go right, Coop did something wrong but we didn't feel like showing it - or the moment that he decided to make that decision, etc).
I mean, it's perfectly valid, but so then are many if not almost all of the bizarre and ludicrous theories that you can find on the Reddit sub; everything can thrive when there's so little actually known or seen. FWWM was close to perfect with the balancing act between mystery and imagination filling in what it can, whereas it feels to me that in The Return, this balance is off.
I want to say again that i'm not saying that I wanted everything explained, but I wanted more connective tissue, for sure. Now, maybe i'm just too dumb to spot that connective tissue but i've been trying. I'd be willing to accept that maybe i've not been thinking fourth-dimensionally enough, but then everything else we know about the whole thing (rushed schedule, tight budget, Lynch going for visuals over mood, Dunham's explanation of how visual continuity is nowhere near paramount, Frost's possibly laissez-faire attitude to research and consistency)does not suggest to me that he'd have been up for some of these delicately nuanced, super-labyrinthine quadruple-level plots -that also require hitherto unheard of levels of audience participation and attentiveness - that pretty much all of these (again, mainly Reddit) theories require. The theories seem to outpace the writing. If i'm wrong, then maybe there is in the loosest sense an internally consistent 'true ending' that exists and will one day be posited. We'll never get confirmation, but that's fine. But it feels more like a get-out clause to me at the moment (the authorial silence, that is, not the waiting for a 'correct' theory)
PS. Something interesting I just thought about regarding my take on it: all these problems just become interesting plot gymnastics if you look at them in the context of an ongoing story that we're going to get more of at a later date. I'm not saying that it makes these problems with The Return go away, necessarily, but viewing it as part of a larger piece makes many of the decisions more understandable. But pretty much everything I loved about the ending is predicated on the fact that this is it for our trip along with Coop and Laura, etc. I mean, obviously the story's not over but what remains is - like 'Laura''s whisper to horrified Coop - probably going to remain forever unknown to us, and that's what makes that ending (and his expression) so beautiful and terrible, all at once.
Apologies for how rambling and messy this is
No need for apologies, definitely a good post.
I think that the problem in reading this work is that we still can’t piece all the “static” parts together, and then work backwards toward a reading of what has happened.
The whole work starts with a very important conversation: listen to the sounds, 430, richard and linda, two birds with one stone, it’s in our house now. That is, it begins with clue. Now, unless Lynch and Frost are completely mental (which I can’t rule out
) the bottom line of opening the series with clues is: there is a logic behind it, but you have to investigate. That is what a clue is. Just the sound from the gramophone - which is heard at least once more in a pivotal scene - indicates that something that is not clear at all, in reality is something fixed. Of course this type of work is open to many plot holes, but I am not sure that we can count them yet for the simple reason that we’re still trying to figure out the plot.
I have the feeling that it’s all there, that the clues are there, and some of them are so evident we can’t see them. For this reason I am convinced that the “what year is this?” Is the ultimate acknowledgment of failure (from Coop’s perspective).
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