Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

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yaxomoxay
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby yaxomoxay » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:02 pm

LateReg wrote:
Pinky wrote:i'm fine with shifting the Fireman's scene everywhere, I tried many places when trying to get on board with the Coop Hubris theory. I'm not disputing it, Frost basically said it's what it appears to be, it just feels to me like we're supposed to base this on nothing more than Coop being confused in front of the Palmer house (and even from that we can only take that something has gone terribly awry, not that it is in any way Coop's fault).

It's a perfectly valid explanation to say that at some point offscreen, Coop came across some information about the Odessa crossing being 430 miles from some starting position for Coop and Diane, and at some point in his fuckery, Coop is whisked to the Fireman's where he is reminded of his error, perhaps, and told that he is now as a result 'far away'. In this reading, I guess we could take Andy's vision of the electricity pole outside Carrie's house not as a sign that Cooper was on the right path, but as a warning from the Fireman of the grave danger to come? But I would be stumped as to why Major Briggs would try so hard to make sure Coop had access to the boiler room portal of the Great Northern (unless Coop's mistake comes after this moment; the deciding to use Jeffries to go back to change things feels like an obvious contender, but after two seasons and a film's worth of watching Cooper follow their clues to relative success, it feels a bit disingenuous to suggest that, oh, this time it didn't go right, Coop did something wrong but we didn't feel like showing it - or the moment that he decided to make that decision, etc).


I would not have put this together myself, either, since we are supposed to think of Cooper as a nearly perfect, thoughtful person throughout the original incarnation; at least that's how I mostly considered him. Like everything else, The Return decides to flip that notion on its head, and apparently focus on the flaws of his character. Others have highlighted that he actually did fail before - after all, Maddy dies on his watch, and before then with Caroline, and again with Annie. That's a pattern of failure right there, all based around trying to save a girl. He also attempted to enter the black lodge, and apparently did so with imperfect courage, and failed in that. Now, as far as where his hubris comes in, I've read about that as well, but need a reminder as to where in his history we've seen him display such hubris before? Is his willingness to enter into the Black Lodge with imperfect courage an example? Whether he has displayed hubris or not, it doesn't matter much because one of the questions at the end has to be what kind of person would be so bold as to try to reset the past? Even if he did succeed, what kind of person would even attempt to do so? That's where the hubris undoubtedly comes into play.


S2: Tries to “trick” the Black Lodge with imperfect courage. Fails.
S3: Tries to “trick” the White Lodge with imperfect love. Fails.

:)


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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby chromereflectsimage » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:14 pm

Pinky wrote:
pinballmars wrote:
As for Mr. C and his mysterious phone call, I think he's communicating with Judy/Sarah. I think she's leading on him and Ray throughout the whole series while they think they're communicating with Phillip Jefferies.


This works as a good example for me for issues I have with that aspect of the storyline. It came across to me as being Judy/The Experiment on that call. On a plot level because we're given the line 'missed you in New York', and on a nerd level because there are manipulations of the voice out there that sound bang on like it's Grace Zabriskie giving those lines (dangerously subjective, I know). The Mark Frost that i've met through TSHOTP and TFD wouldn't assume that anyone would bother trying to use tech to try and ascertain the identity of the reader of those lines (I don't say the character because I guess there's no point at this point in making any assumptions, it is perfectly Lynchian to have Zabriskie read those lines because he liked the timbre of her voice on that particular day and it has no relation to the character she plays), whereas it's hard to imagine that Lynch's attention to detail when it comes to sound wouldn't preclude letting anyone with sound software discover the identity of a voice (counterpoint: he seems incredibly mercurial in this regard; sometimes he is insanely detailed and other times he - maybe due to time/budget/the psychosphere - is content to let things slide. It's the not knowing in each case that is what leads to the confusion, and - inasmuch as it has served him and his work so very well over the years - more power to him.

I agree that Judy is leading Ray and Mr C on throughout what we see of The Return, what i'd like is maybe some in-world link to how this situation came about given that Mr C is said to have been in at least semi-regular communication with Jeffries over the past quarter century and the two are supposedly in league with each other. The prison scene was the absolute high point for me of The Return: I was a way bigger fan of FWWM and the expansion of the mythos and of the FBI/Blue Rose's role, so to suddenly get this supposed further expansion - delivered in that terrifying low, atonal voice (that only seems to carry through the intercom scenes, weirdly) was a delight. But it doesn't really have a later payoff. We're not sure what it is they were supposedly up to together, whether the Jeffries he was in league with was a)JUDY all along b)a real Jeffries playing along with a pre-1989 Cole/Coop/Jeffries long game plan, or c)some unseen, unmentioned DoppleJeffries. Being vague as to this is perfectly fine and it would work really well, but things just feel loose. Given Mr C would have some idea of just how powerful Jeffries has become, why is their (unknown) plan not much further along? He knows what The Dutchman's is, and where to find it.

Any ideas on why 'Jeffries' knowing that Mr C met Maj. Briggs would clue Mr C in to it not being the Jeffries he had been dealing with up to this point? The 'missed you in New York' line doesn't seem to make him suspicious, even though we could be expected (again, not knowing what's expected of us as a viewer is what makes it so...slippery in The Return) to assume that Mr C knows that this is a reference to the Sam/Tracey/Experiment incident in the NY Glass Box. If 'Jeffries' is saying that he was in NY for the Sam and Tracey 'fun' but Mr C. didn't get there in time cause he was still held up in Buckhorn, it suggests that they were in league with the Glass Box together, at least, but to what end? It can't be to capture Good Coop because how would C explain that to a Jeffries that isn't outright evil himself? When the two 'meet' at The Dutchmans, Mr C's appearance (hair, skin, eyes etc) doesn't seem to rule him out as being Cooper, in Jeffries' eyes. Could it be that, despite his apparent great power within this other world, Jeffries didn't have knowledge of good Coop's physical appearance? If Jeffries was being played/doesn't have certain powers that we might reasonably expect of a guy who can bend time, then was Cole et al also being played?

Don't get me wrong, it's all great stuff and I love thinking about this, it's just the not knowing when and where the attention should be that can make it maddening.


I'd better shut up until I can gauge how much sense i'm making, and at least get out of my work clothes!


For me, it makes more sense to look at it as Mr. C doesn't have opposite goals of Cooper, but rather representative it's Cooper's drive. They actually have the same goals (working with Phillip Jeffries to find Judy), and this is why what Mr. C wants is left ambiguous. JMO.
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby chromereflectsimage » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:17 pm

LateReg wrote:
Pinky wrote:i'm fine with shifting the Fireman's scene everywhere, I tried many places when trying to get on board with the Coop Hubris theory. I'm not disputing it, Frost basically said it's what it appears to be, it just feels to me like we're supposed to base this on nothing more than Coop being confused in front of the Palmer house (and even from that we can only take that something has gone terribly awry, not that it is in any way Coop's fault).

It's a perfectly valid explanation to say that at some point offscreen, Coop came across some information about the Odessa crossing being 430 miles from some starting position for Coop and Diane, and at some point in his fuckery, Coop is whisked to the Fireman's where he is reminded of his error, perhaps, and told that he is now as a result 'far away'. In this reading, I guess we could take Andy's vision of the electricity pole outside Carrie's house not as a sign that Cooper was on the right path, but as a warning from the Fireman of the grave danger to come? But I would be stumped as to why Major Briggs would try so hard to make sure Coop had access to the boiler room portal of the Great Northern (unless Coop's mistake comes after this moment; the deciding to use Jeffries to go back to change things feels like an obvious contender, but after two seasons and a film's worth of watching Cooper follow their clues to relative success, it feels a bit disingenuous to suggest that, oh, this time it didn't go right, Coop did something wrong but we didn't feel like showing it - or the moment that he decided to make that decision, etc).


I would not have put this together myself, either, since we are supposed to think of Cooper as a nearly perfect, thoughtful person throughout the original incarnation; at least that's how I mostly considered him. Like everything else, The Return decides to flip that notion on its head, and apparently focus on the flaws of his character. Others have highlighted that he actually did fail before - after all, Maddy dies on his watch, and before then with Caroline, and again with Annie. That's a pattern of failure right there, all based around trying to save a girl. He also attempted to enter the black lodge, and apparently did so with imperfect courage, and failed in that. Now, as far as where his hubris comes in, I've read about that as well, but need a reminder as to where in his history we've seen him display such hubris before? Is his willingness to enter into the Black Lodge with imperfect courage an example? Whether he has displayed hubris or not, it doesn't matter much because one of the questions at the end has to be what kind of person would be so bold as to try to reset the past? Even if he did succeed, what kind of person would even attempt to do so? That's where the hubris undoubtedly comes into play.


Bob reflected as Cooper when Bob kills Earle is when Cooper's Doppelganger appears. In the external world we are not seeing, this is Cooper killing Earle and that's when the doppelganger emerges. Just another way the season 2 finale could be interpreted:
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby laughingpinecone » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:38 pm

As it were...
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (217.58 KiB) Viewed 2842 times


Jokes aside, I don't think there's anything that unequivocally jumps out to spell out the reasons and/or details of Coop's fuck-up. But that's the impending mood of that final scene (it's wrong wrong wrong, I get the chills even when I'm just flipping through it to get screencaps for a meme or two). And, thematically, it checks out: "what to do when your life hasn't gone the way you wanted" is something that concerns a vast majority of the returning cast, and it seems to me that the suggested course of action is to accept that what's done is done and start shoveling oneself out of all that. Trying to go back in time to erase what one perceives to be the cause of this suffering is antithetical to that, it's like Coop reached the bottom of the barrel of not wanting to face his own trauma and all that he caused more or less directly, has always felt connected to Laura, saving her would be Finally The Right Thing To Do, it would feel like saving himself, and it would come with the added perk of improving the past of a whole lot of people (many of whom present at the Sheriff's station) and so off he goes. Still sternly refusing to face anything whatsoever.

These, for me, are elements present in the text - ymmv on the mix of Coop's motives, but at least one out of three very probably applies. So I try to go backwards from there to try and imagine what might have 'gone wrong' in the Fireman's plan. Occam's razor gives me a "nothing went wrong, that was the Fireman's intended outcome, which was not Coop's intended outcome. Mfrost did say that the Fireman's motives are unfathomable after all". But I've also entertained the idea that maybe Richard and Linda went wrong. Diane embraces the Linda identity - whatever that means - but Coop doesn't become Richard: he's puzzled by being addressed as Richard in the note, his goals are still Laura and the Palmer house. Maybe this holding onto Laura, and in turn onto his identity, wasn't part of the plan. Or maybe... who knows. Maybe something else. But I'm pretty confident in the overall thematic direction, so it's fun to try to look at details, move them around in this fuzzy framework and try to assign meanings to them.

Conversely, the Jeffries phone switcheroo frustrates me a little because for now I don't really see what's up with that, nor with most of Garland's storyline for that matter. Oh well. Maybe one day!
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby chromereflectsimage » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:00 pm

Speaking of Major Briggs, this is interesting

"The Tibetan book of the Dead says that the first time you awaken from the unconscious absorption in the body, you have a visual experience, minute and precise and clear, luminous and terrifying, rather like seeing a mirage in a spring field, and also you hear a sound which is like a thousand thunders roaring simultaneously. In the mental state there is a looseness and detached feeling, while at the same time overloaded with intelligence, as though the person had a head without a body, a gigantic head floating in space. So the actual visual experience of this bardo state, the preparation for perceiving the visions of the tathagatas, is clear and intelligent and luminous, but at the same time intangible, not knowing where you are exactly; and that sensual experience is also happening in the audible sphere, a deep sound roaring in the background, earth-shaking, but at the same time there is nothing to vibrate. Similar experiences can also happen in life, although the absence of a physical body makes the bardo experience more clear and more hallucinatory. In a life situation there is not the extreme aspect of the mirage, but there is a basically desolate quality, loneliness and flickering, when the person begins to realize that there is no background area to relate to as ego. That sudden glimpse of egolessness brings a kind of shakiness." - Chogyam Trungpa from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead - The Great Liberation through Hearing in the Bardo"
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:57 pm

Pinky wrote:The same feeling I get with all these supposed 'glitches': if they were just a little bit more obvious (and we didn't have a few BTS hours of Lynch kicking off about the budget and rushed schedule), at this point i'd maybe be a third of the way towards believing them...


I don’t think this is a fair characterization of the BTS footage. The moments you’re referring to certainly don’t comprise anywhere near an hour of the material, let alone multiple hours. And I’m still not convinced that this production was particularly low-budget or rushed. At one point Scott Cameron — an experienced AD — tries to explain to DKL that many of the things he’s complaining about are simply the reality of the Hollywood system, and DKL responds by muttering that he is not a Hollywood person. DKL also complained during the making of LH that he dislikes the faster-paced studio approach to moviemaking and wishes he could work in the Eraserhead mode again.

DKL is seen paying his usual tremendous attention to detail in many many moments in the BTS footage, whether it’s feeding Sizemore or Fenn a very specific line reading or building the golden pool himself. Indeed, we have now received confirmation that some of the aspects of the show that people criticized as the compromised result of a diminished budget were very intentional choices personally executed by DKL (the “flat” CGI effects, which DKL did after scrapping Buffin’s higher-tech attempts). It’s also funny to remember now how many people initially criticized the budget-cutting “CGI Red Room curtains.” :lol: It’s also amazing how easily DKL can recite an entire character’s arc off the top of his head (the Mitchums, Hutch), or immediately recall any scene from the show’s massive script when Cameron mentions it during a prep session — not only remembering the specifics of the scene, but already having the entire thing previsualized in his head. See also little details like the date-appropriate materials in the radio station or the crew members asking Cori Glazer what times the clocks should be set to in a given scene.

The point is, I think the overwhelming evidence shows that DKL and the rest of the crew invested tremendous thought and attention into most aspects of the production, and while the budget and schedule may not have lived up DKL’s idealistic vision of filmmaking, I haven’t seen much evidence that they were any different from the average production.
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby claaa7 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:05 pm

Cappy wrote:I still wonder why Hastings' secretary (Betty) would only give the coordinates to Ray. Did Ray and her have some prior relationship...?

Also, when did Ray find the time to interact with her -- Betty was killed in a car bomb, and Ray was arrested seemingly a day after teaming up with Mr. C. I don't really know, but if Ray goes into the Red Room after his death, then it's possible he can interact with people across time via dreams, a la Laura telling Cooper who killed her in the original series (and... again in S3). And Betty, along with Bill Hastings and Ruth, had some sort of access or exposure to the Convenient Store. Maybe Ray got the coordinates from her in the spirit world, at some non-specific point in time?

These little mysteries/inaccuracies surrounding Ray's character really elevate him to an interest level on par with the original TP characters, at least in my eyes anyway. Plus the actor has that young Michael Madsen look. I'm surprised he hasn't been in any Tarantino or Rodriguez projects yet.


One thought i had was that this pretty secretary we hear so much about never knew anything at all about all that stuff. Ray needed to get the coordinates from Jeffries and the Betty story would work as a Good decoy for Mister C. Plus knowing Ray was an informant for the Fbi it wouldnt be wise to kill anyone.

The series seem to underline this for me but doesnt TFD actually spell out that Hastings secretary Betty actually was killed in a car bomb explosion?

Isnt it also intetesting that Ray have a direkt line to contact Jeffries?
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby LateReg » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:50 am

laughingpinecone wrote:As it were...
Capture.PNG

Jokes aside, I don't think there's anything that unequivocally jumps out to spell out the reasons and/or details of Coop's fuck-up. But that's the impending mood of that final scene (it's wrong wrong wrong, I get the chills even when I'm just flipping through it to get screencaps for a meme or two). And, thematically, it checks out: "what to do when your life hasn't gone the way you wanted" is something that concerns a vast majority of the returning cast, and it seems to me that the suggested course of action is to accept that what's done is done and start shoveling oneself out of all that. Trying to go back in time to erase what one perceives to be the cause of this suffering is antithetical to that, it's like Coop reached the bottom of the barrel of not wanting to face his own trauma and all that he caused more or less directly, has always felt connected to Laura, saving her would be Finally The Right Thing To Do, it would feel like saving himself, and it would come with the added perk of improving the past of a whole lot of people (many of whom present at the Sheriff's station) and so off he goes. Still sternly refusing to face anything whatsoever.

These, for me, are elements present in the text - ymmv on the mix of Coop's motives, but at least one out of three very probably applies. So I try to go backwards from there to try and imagine what might have 'gone wrong' in the Fireman's plan. Occam's razor gives me a "nothing went wrong, that was the Fireman's intended outcome, which was not Coop's intended outcome. Mfrost did say that the Fireman's motives are unfathomable after all". But I've also entertained the idea that maybe Richard and Linda went wrong. Diane embraces the Linda identity - whatever that means - but Coop doesn't become Richard: he's puzzled by being addressed as Richard in the note, his goals are still Laura and the Palmer house. Maybe this holding onto Laura, and in turn onto his identity, wasn't part of the plan. Or maybe... who knows. Maybe something else. But I'm pretty confident in the overall thematic direction, so it's fun to try to look at details, move them around in this fuzzy framework and try to assign meanings to them.

Conversely, the Jeffries phone switcheroo frustrates me a little because for now I don't really see what's up with that, nor with most of Garland's storyline for that matter. Oh well. Maybe one day!


Great post.
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby Pinky » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:12 am

LateReg wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:As it were...
Capture.PNG

Jokes aside, I don't think there's anything that unequivocally jumps out to spell out the reasons and/or details of Coop's fuck-up. But that's the impending mood of that final scene (it's wrong wrong wrong, I get the chills even when I'm just flipping through it to get screencaps for a meme or two). And, thematically, it checks out: "what to do when your life hasn't gone the way you wanted" is something that concerns a vast majority of the returning cast, and it seems to me that the suggested course of action is to accept that what's done is done and start shoveling oneself out of all that. Trying to go back in time to erase what one perceives to be the cause of this suffering is antithetical to that, it's like Coop reached the bottom of the barrel of not wanting to face his own trauma and all that he caused more or less directly, has always felt connected to Laura, saving her would be Finally The Right Thing To Do, it would feel like saving himself, and it would come with the added perk of improving the past of a whole lot of people (many of whom present at the Sheriff's station) and so off he goes. Still sternly refusing to face anything whatsoever.

These, for me, are elements present in the text - ymmv on the mix of Coop's motives, but at least one out of three very probably applies. So I try to go backwards from there to try and imagine what might have 'gone wrong' in the Fireman's plan. Occam's razor gives me a "nothing went wrong, that was the Fireman's intended outcome, which was not Coop's intended outcome. Mfrost did say that the Fireman's motives are unfathomable after all". But I've also entertained the idea that maybe Richard and Linda went wrong. Diane embraces the Linda identity - whatever that means - but Coop doesn't become Richard: he's puzzled by being addressed as Richard in the note, his goals are still Laura and the Palmer house. Maybe this holding onto Laura, and in turn onto his identity, wasn't part of the plan. Or maybe... who knows. Maybe something else. But I'm pretty confident in the overall thematic direction, so it's fun to try to look at details, move them around in this fuzzy framework and try to assign meanings to them.

Conversely, the Jeffries phone switcheroo frustrates me a little because for now I don't really see what's up with that, nor with most of Garland's storyline for that matter. Oh well. Maybe one day!


Great post.



Agreed, perfectly put, hard to argue with anything here. Perhaps the Fireman is tidying up temporal problems, closing off a loop with the Odessaverse, and maybe even trapping JUDY inside it as a bonus.
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Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby yaxomoxay » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:05 pm

Pinky wrote:
LateReg wrote:
laughingpinecone wrote:As it were...
Capture.PNG

Jokes aside, I don't think there's anything that unequivocally jumps out to spell out the reasons and/or details of Coop's fuck-up. But that's the impending mood of that final scene (it's wrong wrong wrong, I get the chills even when I'm just flipping through it to get screencaps for a meme or two). And, thematically, it checks out: "what to do when your life hasn't gone the way you wanted" is something that concerns a vast majority of the returning cast, and it seems to me that the suggested course of action is to accept that what's done is done and start shoveling oneself out of all that. Trying to go back in time to erase what one perceives to be the cause of this suffering is antithetical to that, it's like Coop reached the bottom of the barrel of not wanting to face his own trauma and all that he caused more or less directly, has always felt connected to Laura, saving her would be Finally The Right Thing To Do, it would feel like saving himself, and it would come with the added perk of improving the past of a whole lot of people (many of whom present at the Sheriff's station) and so off he goes. Still sternly refusing to face anything whatsoever.

These, for me, are elements present in the text - ymmv on the mix of Coop's motives, but at least one out of three very probably applies. So I try to go backwards from there to try and imagine what might have 'gone wrong' in the Fireman's plan. Occam's razor gives me a "nothing went wrong, that was the Fireman's intended outcome, which was not Coop's intended outcome. Mfrost did say that the Fireman's motives are unfathomable after all". But I've also entertained the idea that maybe Richard and Linda went wrong. Diane embraces the Linda identity - whatever that means - but Coop doesn't become Richard: he's puzzled by being addressed as Richard in the note, his goals are still Laura and the Palmer house. Maybe this holding onto Laura, and in turn onto his identity, wasn't part of the plan. Or maybe... who knows. Maybe something else. But I'm pretty confident in the overall thematic direction, so it's fun to try to look at details, move them around in this fuzzy framework and try to assign meanings to them.

Conversely, the Jeffries phone switcheroo frustrates me a little because for now I don't really see what's up with that, nor with most of Garland's storyline for that matter. Oh well. Maybe one day!


Great post.



Agreed, perfectly put, hard to argue with anything here. Perhaps the Fireman is tidying up temporal problems, closing off a loop with the Odessaverse, and maybe even trapping JUDY inside it as a bonus.


Hmm... where does the “Laura” that makes Carrie scream come from?


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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby N. Needleman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:37 pm

IcedOver wrote:I'm sorry, but this theorizing is a bit silly.


What exactly do you think TP fans did on this forum and many others for 25 fucking years?

If you don't like theorizing and deep analysis, guess what: This is the wrong fandom. Whether you like what you watched or not is not relevant to what this fandom has been doing since the days of alt.tv.twin-peaks in 1990. If you can't take the discussion there's plenty of threads to go to.
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby Xavi » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:16 am

yaxomoxay wrote:
Pinky wrote:
LateReg wrote:
Great post.



Agreed, perfectly put, hard to argue with anything here. Perhaps the Fireman is tidying up temporal problems, closing off a loop with the Odessaverse, and maybe even trapping JUDY inside it as a bonus.


Hmm... where does the “Laura” that makes Carrie scream come from?


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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby Kilmoore » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:25 am

N. Needleman wrote:What exactly do you think TP fans did on this forum and many others for 25 fucking years?

There is a very clear and distinct difference between speculation about things we've seen on the screen and just pulling things out of absolutely nowhere. This thread is mostly the latter, these theories stand on nothing.
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby Mr. Reindeer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:17 am

Kilmoore wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:What exactly do you think TP fans did on this forum and many others for 25 fucking years?

There is a very clear and distinct difference between speculation about things we've seen on the screen and just pulling things out of absolutely nowhere. This thread is mostly the latter, these theories stand on nothing.


Many people said this same thing to fans who theorized that 1956 girl was Sarah (there’s no proof in the text, etc.). Yet Mark confirmed in TFD that this was indeed his authorial intent. Would you agree that those fans latched on to legitimate clues, or did they reach the same conclusion as the creator/cowriter through sheer happenstance? I’m certainly not going to defend every theory on these boards (although, to paraphrase Evelyn Beatrice Hall, I will defend to the death the right to theorize, even when I personally may find it half-baked). But I do think those who found the show tiresome or disappointing have (understandably) devoted less time to looking at the nuances, and therefore aren’t in as good a position to critique those who have really gotten into the weeds.
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Re: Ray/Phillip Jeffries storyline

Postby N. Needleman » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:52 am

Kilmoore wrote:
N. Needleman wrote:What exactly do you think TP fans did on this forum and many others for 25 fucking years?

There is a very clear and distinct difference between speculation about things we've seen on the screen and just pulling things out of absolutely nowhere. This thread is mostly the latter, these theories stand on nothing.


Again: Tell it to the last 25 years. I think many of these theories have plenty of valid basis based on what we know of the story and mythos, but I've also heard way, way wilder ones over the decades. (There's a guy on the subreddit convinced David Lynch put secret messages about Stephen King's It in S3, for god's sake)

Whichever theory you or I may find wrongheaded, the TP community online and in fanzines has always thrived on this kind of speculation and theorizing. If you don't like it you are in the wrong place. Either way: There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If you want to bitch about how none of it means anything, go back to the Profoundly Disappointed. Policing our hypotheses is not an option.
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